My Objection to Religion

[Bullypulpit]

1. The key words that you have ignored are "to the [five physical] senses".

Since the "five physical" senses are the only ones demonstrably available to us, and are the means by which we percieve the world around us, there was no need to explicitly state them. They are a given.

2. From a generality?

No, specific instances.

(crickets in the background...Chirp, chirp, chirp...)

 

[glockmail]

Since the "five physical" senses are the only ones demonstrably available to us, and are the means by which we percieve the world around us, there was no need to explicitly state them. They are a given.



No, specific instances.

(crickets in the background...Chirp, chirp, chirp...)

1. So if your wife is pissed off at you, in the same room but behind you and silent, you tell me that you don't percieve that? Well I sure as hell do, and so doesn't any other man in a sucessful marriaige that I have bothered to ask. We have other senses besides the physical 5.
2. Let's get this straight: you are asking me for specifics from your generality?

 

[dilloduck]

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>meta·phys·i·cal</b>
Pronunciation: -'fi-zi-k&l
Function: adjective
<b>1</b> : of or relating to metaphysics
<b>2</b> a : of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality <b><i>beyond what is perceptible to the senses</i></b></blockquote>(<i>emphasis mine</i>)

Notice that the "metaphysical" refers to that which is "...beyond what is perceptible to the senses...". So, yes, I do require evidence which is readily available and open to the observation and verification by independent observers.

I guess that would rule out your thought processes ? That might explain a lot !

 

[Bullypulpit]

1. So if your wife is pissed off at you, in the same room but behind you and silent, you tell me that you don't percieve that? Well I sure as hell do, and so doesn't any other man in a sucessful marriaige that I have bothered to ask. We have other senses besides the physical 5.

It doesn't require some mysterious "6th sense" to know my wife is present (And I do!).

2. Let's get this straight: you are asking me for specifics from your generality?

Let's see here...

Testimony of separate individuals with no relation is perfectly acceptable, in fact very desireable, in a court of law.

That seems a pretty general statement to me.

So, let's be specific. Please cite specific instances of independently corroborated, empirically valid evidence used in the cannonization process.

 

[glockmail]

It doesn't require some mysterious "6th sense" to know my wife is present (And I do!).


..... Please cite specific instances of independently corroborated, empirically valid evidence used in the cannonization process.

One example:

Among the signs needed for a canonization is a miracle attributed to that person's intercession. This is normally a cure from some illness, which takes place in some inexplicable way, when the doctors have no solutions apart from the advances on which the medical profession relies at that specific moment in time. In the case of Fr. Champagnat the miracle occurred in 1976, in the case of Br. Heriberto Weber in Uruguay…..

On 20 February 1998, the presumed miracle was studied by the Commission of Theologians of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, and finally, one month later, on 21 March 1998, Br Benito Arbués, Superior General, was able to inform the whole Institute that the result of the report submitted by the Commission of Theologians "favours by six affirmative votes to one only negative" considering the cure of Br Heribert Weber as miraculous…..http://www.maristas.com.ar/m_vida/echoes/echoes.htm

If you do a search on miracles and the canonization process you will find hundreds more.

 

[Eightball]

If two or more people eye-witness something, and their testimony doesn't contradict each other's, and there's know evidence of collaboration.......Courts accept it as solid evidence.

In the case of Jesus's life......there's a multitude of evidence of His miracles, His crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection from many sources. Even secular sources, such as Roman archives.........Yes, a man was crucified, there was a Pontius Pilate.....governor of Judea at that time.

You must also ask yourselves........What did it profit these Jews of various levels of societal class to promote this "Jesus"? It was actually a very suicidal decision to follow this guy who claimed to be the Messiah. It meant possibly be exempted from the Temple, ostracising by your family, and also shunning from doing everyday business such as buying and selling commodities for living/survival.....i.e. food, clothing....etc. It even meant possibly losing your home.......and in the case of the Roman Christians that Paul visited and also wrote a letter to, it meant incredible danger to one's life as well as loved ones....i.e. children.

Shortly after Jesus's Assension......the early Christians were persecuted with such zealousness. Saul of Tarsus, who later became called Paul, and wrote numerous Epistles of the N.T. portion of the bible, was one of the most notorious avengers of the Jews that had become "Jesus" converts. He traveled all over, even to Damascus to bring back recent converts to Jesus for trial in the Jerusalem church. Saul, stood by, and admittedly watch as these fellow countrymen who had embraced Jesus were stoned to death. Paul said, that he heartely approved, and even held the cloaks of those that were throwing the stones of death at these early Christians.

Yet, the very man that hated this Jesus, was struck, "dumb founded" on his way to Damascus while carrying a document of permission to arrest additional Jewish or Messianic Christians. The man, Saul, claimed that he heard a voice, and saw a bright light, that stopped him on his horse along with his fellow riders. In fact he fell off of his horse. The voice from the blinding light said, "Why are you persecuting me?". Saul asked who was talking to him, and the voice responded that it was Jesus.....whome he persecuted. The other riders only saw the bright light, but could not discern the voice.....to them it was a thunderous sound, but not discernible as a voice. Apparently this message was for Saul, alone.

Anyway........Saul was renamed Paul, and Paul from that time on no longer persecuted the early Christians, but became one himself, and then went on to minister the gospel most notably to gentils and some Jews.

Jewish, religious, zealot, Saul of Tarsus had it made......He had noteriety with the religious leaders of his day.....He was well off.....trained in the school of Gamamiel......so he was a Jew of Jews when it came to obeying the letter of the law, and being respected amongst the Saducees, Scribes, and Pharisees.....Yet, on that road to Damascus......He gave it all away.......and became a fanatic for the one he'd hated, dispised.

When you think about it, biblical Christians give up a lot of things.......in order to follow their Lord.......Often their own families.........parents..siblings, and even spouses turn against them.......or shun them. They are called odd-balls.....even luneys......because they find an inner strength and completness in a message that ocurred 2000 years ago. These folks wouldn't deny their faith to the threat of beheading, being pulled apart by horses chained to them in the colliseum. In fact their very strength in the midst of pending death or torture, actually caused other to investigate this unnatural human behaviour and phenomena. What made these folks so strong, yet so humble......They were a contradiction of human behaviour. They defied the norm of self centered living........Their very lives were not as important as their hope, in their Lord.......and the future resurrection of their own bodily life.

They faced death as victims, not as gruesome avengers of a gospel by the sword, as happened later in the ugly Crusades that absolutely did not reveal or display true Christian biblical motives, nor in likelyhood true Christians at all.

Were these fishermen, tax collectors, widows, whores, rich folks, ex-Pharisees, Roman soldiers, all involved in mass hysteria.....were they all involved in a massive cultic scheme to take over the world and rule it........Hardly.....

Just read the first 4 books of the N.T. If you can read Nietzky, or Voltaire, or Grisham.....why not Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.....they're much shorter books.....Also much easier to understand......as they make such simplistic sense.

I can't guarantee that you'll want to hear or face thinking about much of what you read in those accounts, but if you're willing to look at yourself with an honest contrite (humble) heart......You'll discover that there trully is power, and life in those accounts.......including all the books that were cannonized and followed those........

The bible is like a bright light in a dark murkey room.....it reveals every dark crevice of the human soul........Nothing can hid from this light..........all is revealed.......it's painful at times.......but with the pain comes healing.....

Such as it is with surgery.....cutting, repair, and sometimes removal must come before recovery.

 

[Bullypulpit]

One example:




If you do a search on miracles and the canonization process you will find hundreds more.

Any corroboration by investigators outside the Church?

 

[Bullypulpit]

If two or more people eye-witness something, and their testimony doesn't contradict each other's, and there's know evidence of collaboration.......Courts accept it as solid evidence.

While eyewitness testimony is regarded as valid, it has its problems, as evidenced by the numder of convictions based on eyewitness testimony that have been over-turned based upon DNA evidence.

In the case of Jesus's life......there's a multitude of evidence of His miracles, His crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection from many sources. Even secular sources, such as Roman archives.........Yes, a man was crucified, there was a Pontius Pilate.....governor of Judea at that time.

But do those Roman records indicate the existence of Jesus? Sadly, with the sacking of Rome andf the fall of the empire, much knowledge was irretrievably lost. But I don't doubt there was an historical figure named Jesus.

You must also ask yourselves........What did it profit these Jews of various levels of societal class to promote this "Jesus"? It was actually a very suicidal decision to follow this guy who claimed to be the Messiah. It meant possibly be exempted from the Temple, ostracising by your family, and also shunning from doing everyday business such as buying and selling commodities for living/survival.....i.e. food, clothing....etc. It even meant possibly losing your home.......and in the case of the Roman Christians that Paul visited and also wrote a letter to, it meant incredible danger to one's life as well as loved ones....i.e. children.

What profit comes to the followers of any charismatic figure? Look at the followers of Sung Myung Moon, Jim Jones, Charles Manson. Charismatic figures will always have a following of those dis-satisfied with their lives and are unable to find another means of fulfillment.

Shortly after Jesus's Assension......the early Christians were persecuted with such zealousness. Saul of Tarsus, who later became called Paul, and wrote numerous Epistles of the N.T. portion of the bible, was one of the most notorious avengers of the Jews that had become "Jesus" converts. He traveled all over, even to Damascus to bring back recent converts to Jesus for trial in the Jerusalem church. Saul, stood by, and admittedly watch as these fellow countrymen who had embraced Jesus were stoned to death. Paul said, that he heartely approved, and even held the cloaks of those that were throwing the stones of death at these early Christians.

An idea is hard to kill. And don't forget, Jesus wasn't crucified for being religious or heretical, he was crucifiedfor being political. And that was something the Romans simply wouldn't tolerate. As for his ascension, that is simply part of the mythology that grows up aroud any firgure of historical importance over the centuries.

Yet, the very man that hated this Jesus, was struck, "dumb founded" on his way to Damascus while carrying a document of permission to arrest additional Jewish or Messianic Christians. The man, Saul, claimed that he heard a voice, and saw a bright light, that stopped him on his horse along with his fellow riders. In fact he fell off of his horse. The voice from the blinding light said, "Why are you persecuting me?". Saul asked who was talking to him, and the voice responded that it was Jesus.....whome he persecuted. The other riders only saw the bright light, but could not discern the voice.....to them it was a thunderous sound, but not discernible as a voice. Apparently this message was for Saul, alone.

Subjective phenomena, unavailable to independent verification. In modern terms it could have been a psychotic episode or some other psychological disturbance.

Anyway........Saul was renamed Paul, and Paul from that time on no longer persecuted the early Christians, but became one himself, and then went on to minister the gospel most notably to gentils and some Jews.

He found a purpose in life, something we all seek on one level or another.

Jewish, religious, zealot, Saul of Tarsus had it made......He had noteriety with the religious leaders of his day.....He was well off.....trained in the school of Gamamiel......so he was a Jew of Jews when it came to obeying the letter of the law, and being respected amongst the Saducees, Scribes, and Pharisees.....Yet, on that road to Damascus......He gave it all away.......and became a fanatic for the one he'd hated, dispised.

People in the grips of religious fervor will often act contrary to their own immediate best interests. Whether they benefit from it or not is something they must decide.

When you think about it, biblical Christians give up a lot of things.......in order to follow their Lord.......Often their own families.........parents..siblings, and even spouses turn against them.......or shun them. They are called odd-balls.....even luneys......because they find an inner strength and completness in a message that ocurred 2000 years ago. These folks wouldn't deny their faith to the threat of beheading, being pulled apart by horses chained to them in the colliseum. In fact their very strength in the midst of pending death or torture, actually caused other to investigate this unnatural human behaviour and phenomena. What made these folks so strong, yet so humble......They were a contradiction of human behaviour. They defied the norm of self centered living........Their very lives were not as important as their hope, in their Lord.......and the future resurrection of their own bodily life.

People will, and often do, die for an idea. Witness the fact of the American Revolution, the Civil War, WW I, WWII, and on to the present. These weere the result of people fighting, and dying, to advance an idea. Could it be that the people you cite for their remarkable serenity in the face of adversity had simply found that place in themselves, without any sort of divine intervention?

They faced death as victims, not as gruesome avengers of a gospel by the sword, as happened later in the ugly Crusades that absolutely did not reveal or display true Christian biblical motives, nor in likelyhood true Christians at all.

Were these fishermen, tax collectors, widows, whores, rich folks, ex-Pharisees, Roman soldiers, all involved in mass hysteria.....were they all involved in a massive cultic scheme to take over the world and rule it........Hardly.....

See above.

Just read the first 4 books of the N.T. If you can read Nietzky, or Voltaire, or Grisham.....why not Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.....they're much shorter books.....Also much easier to understand......as they make such simplistic sense.

Neitzche and Voltaire were peddlers in philosophical sophistry. THe Only Grisham I know of is John Grisham, and I find his work tedious, at best.

I can't guarantee that you'll want to hear or face thinking about much of what you read in those accounts, but if you're willing to look at yourself with an honest contrite (humble) heart......You'll discover that there trully is power, and life in those accounts.......including all the books that were cannonized and followed those........

Such can be said of any endeavor in life

The bible is like a bright light in a dark murkey room.....it reveals every dark crevice of the human soul........Nothing can hid from this light..........all is revealed.......it's painful at times.......but with the pain comes healing.....

Any honest journey of self-reflection and introspection can lead to the same pain and healing. One need not rely on the Bible, or any other religious doctrine to embark upon it. Just self honesty and the courage to face what one finds. Accept and foster what is good, understand and dicard what is not.

Such as it is with surgery.....cutting, repair, and sometimes removal must come before recovery.

An appropriate metaphor but, again, religion need not enter into the picture.

 

[dilloduck]

An idea is hard to kill. And don't forget, Jesus wasn't crucified for being religious or heretical, he was crucifiedfor being political. And that was something the Romans simply wouldn't tolerate. As for his ascension, that is simply part of the mythology that grows up aroud any firgure of historical importance over the centuries.

Care to elaborate on your claim that Jesus was crucified for being political?

 

[Eightball]

Care to elaborate on your claim that Jesus was crucified for being political?

Yeah, Bully has a unsurmountable task there, as it was politcally expediant for the Romans but wasn't the intent of the Jews who pushed for the crucifixion.

As you can see, Bully's interpretation is selective at best.

Formost...Jesus claimed to be God incarnate.....that's what raised the hackles of the Jews......and started the "kill Jesus" movement. Any bible scholar or layman would see that, but not Bully......It was all political......and to his credit, he's 1/2 right.......Pontius Pilate did not want or need any uprisings in this this remote Roman region that he governed.

Bully has overlooked that, the Jews used the guise of politics in order to involve the Romans in Jesus's demise, as it was totally illegal at the time for the Jews to inact capital punishment via their own means. The governing, Romans were the last word when it came to capital crimes. That's a fact, Bully. I do know that many stonings happened at the hads of zealot Jews towards early Jewish converts to Jesus, but that was not condoned by Rome, and would have been strongly rebuked.

Rome had allowed the Jews to have a somewhat Puppet government under the Herod kingship, but Herod and family was still subject To Rome.

Remember that the Jews on the night of Christs arrest went through travails trying to pin down a unanimous conviction of Blasphemy out of Jesus's mouth. He was taken to Herod, and back to the Sanhedrin(Jewish High Court) for a second time......where finally, they got Jesus to say that He was God.......in certain words. Thats when the High Priest/Pharisee ripped his cloak apart, in anger, and then Jesus was hauled off to Pilate home/court.

Bully, Pilate saw nothing wrong with Jesus.....yet, at the final presentation of Jesus before the masses.....there was a new angle presented by those that wanted Jesus's death. "There is no other king but Caesar, and this man Jesus claims to be our king(King of the Jews).".

This "pitch" to Pilate was their last angle, and it worked. It forced Pilate to consider the ramifications of pitting Jesus before the ultimate king in his eyes, Caesar. It was politcally expediant to not have any rumblings get back to Rome about this little Palestinian territorys rebellion. Pilate was a politician. Even with this crafty pressure by the Jews who desired Jesus's death, Pilate in conscience offered another alternative......Barrabus for Jesus.....as once a year the Roman government could offer pardon from death of one prisoner. The Pharisees, and Saducees that wanted Jesus's death, got the old chant going, "Free Barabus!", henceforth, Pilate ceremoniously washed his hands(conscience) and handed Jesus over to a death by Crucifixion.

Take note too, that Pilate's wife warned her husband that he was trifling in something much bigger than he realized. She had experienced a dream that fortold that her this whole scenario about Jesus coming before her husband would occur. It had frightened her much. Her husband apparently discounted her conversation as unimportant or just ramblings of an emotional woman.

Anyway.....Christ's crucifixion was clear fortold hundreds of years before it's happening. Many of the minor prophets, and some of the major prophets accurately foretold of Jesus's death, and how it would be carried out.

Folks don't realize that the early prophets that mentioned Jesus's death via Crucifixion, were foretelling a type of execution that was not even used by the Romans at the time of the prophecy. This brings even more credence to the divine or God's intervention in this whole scenario that occured hundreds of years earlier.

Even the place(Bethlehem) of Christ's virgin birth was prophecied hundreds of years before it's happening.
*******
For the Romans...political expediency......For the Jews who brought Jesus to the Romans........He was a Blasphemer. They just used the ruse of politics to manuever the Romans to their needs......i.e. Jesus being removed.

He upset the perverbial "cart". He said living by the law didn't get you saved.......cause no one could meet the law's requirements of perfection and holiness.....as we were a fallen race from Adam's loins. Case closed. The only hope for this fallen race, was attonement, in a judicial way via the presentation of a perfect sacrifice that would meet God's requirement. So enters that perfect, virgin born man and God.....not from Adam's loins but separate yet 100% man. Jesus filled the unfillable gap of man's lostness. The new Adam metaphorically.

Now man.......has a "bridge" between him and his Maker, via Jesus's resurrected life. Of course, man must volitionally accept this gift of grace.......or deny it via many ways and methods of excuse. God intended for all of mankind to be restored to relationship with Him, but He has left the volitional part to man......as He desires willingness or desire for a relationship with his creation, not forced slavery to love and appreciate Him.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Care to elaborate on your claim that Jesus was crucified for being political?

I will offer up this quote from Professor Allan D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School:

<blockquote>The Roman answer is good enough for me. He was causing trouble. He constituted a security risk and he was dealt with the way the Romans always deal with security risks in the provinces. This was a matter of not even so much politics, as policy. This is how the Romans handled trouble-makers, even if they didn't intend to make trouble.</blockquote>

The "security risk' being his appeal to the masses, the upsetting of the status quo by his antagonization of the Pharisees and the potential for disrupting the delicate political balance they had achieved with the Romans. His cleansing of the Temple was, at its very heart a political act, which threatened that balance.

 

[Bullypulpit]

As you can see, Bully's interpretation is selective at best.

And your interpretation isn't "selective"? Tch...Tch...Tch...Pot...Kettle...Black.

 

[Eightball]

And your interpretation isn't "selective"? Tch...Tch...Tch...Pot...Kettle...Black.

Looks like you selectively read my post....I said that you had it right about the Romans......but not the Jews intent or reasons for Jesus's death.

Romans......were forced into a political decision......by the Jews that wanted Jesus dead. The Jews reason wasn't political...but straight-on theological to a greater extent. He challenged their religiosity......I can see how it might be seen as a political move by the Jews to remove Jesus, as the Pharisee's and others of the Sanhedrin were the power base over the Jews, yet, Jesus was challenging their doctrinal basis or reasoning.

Bully......I think theres more than one side.......Jesus didn't come to politic.......but to save.....and to reveal the true nature of God........He did that succinctly and got killed for doing it. It had it's political angles, and most assuredly spiritual/theological angles as the Jews and Romans saw it.

When Jesus busted up the temple....and ran out all the money changers.........He indeed threatened a corrupt system that had been spawned from the Jewish religion. Basically, religion was a money making enterprise, and Jesus did threaten it........,but Jesus intent was scriptural, while man interpretted it politically, as they couldn't/wouldn't see His/Jesus's motives any other way, or they would have been under great conviction.

Jesus wanted the temple to be a house of worship, not a place of waiting thieves.....taking advantage of those that came in pure hearts to worship, pray, or other scriptural desires.

Bully, I'm not expecting or asking you to see it as a spiritual battle underneath the "politcal" appearance of all that happened. I just can't agree as one that sees much of what goes on in this present world in a spiritual way, since my Christian conversion.

The bible says that unconverted man can't discern the things of the Spirit.......I'm not quoting that to slam or to talk-down to anyone........I really think that we come to "logger heads" over these biblical issues with one another because there is a spiritual side to life that must be included in the reasoning faculties of us humans to be fully discerning of intent, and understanding with these issues.
....
I even believe that there is a big spiritual side to what goes on in nations. Seems that as nations come to esteem God in biblical ways......these nations seem to prosper in so many ways........I don't necessarily mean materially, but those nations tend to become stronger as a "people" or populous.

I find it so sad, yet predictable........how right after 9/11, churches of all denominations and non-denominations had and incredible upsurge in attendance.......yet current 06 attendance is down to below or at Pre-9/11 levels.

Suffering often drives us to look for answers. Especially when help for it, by all man-inspired ways doesn't help. It often drives atheists and agnotics to their knees for the first time in their lives. Why.....because I believe our Creator made us that way. We weren't designed to be self-sufficient. With our intellect, and ability to self analyze comes this cognizance of ourselves, our surroundings in a way that spands a canyon of distance from the other mammalian species.

This realization shows us that not one of us can or will sustain a level of peace, satisfaction, or self-security for any prolonged stretches of time. I think that our built-in mortality, is designed to show us that we aren't little or big gods. We aren't the captains of our lives, or we aren't suitable to be the captains.

Even that fire ball, the Apostle Paul, proclaimed that "When I am weak, He(God) is strong, therefore I(Paul) will boast in my weaknesses.".

How many here are willing to boast in their weaknesses? I doubt any of us would. Paul did. Why? Well, he discovered something very important about his humanity, and we all could do well to share in this discovery to. God can't help or work in our lives as long as we want to call the "shots" so-to-speak. It's a control issue....

Most folks fear biblical Christianity because they think or feel that they must give-up some kind of treasure of life for the mundane do's and don'ts of being Holy and likeable to God. Oh, what an absolute lie has been propagated upon our weak, miserable race!

We are born naked and we die naked.........we are from the molecules of the earth, and so shall we go back. What a sad refrain........but that's the refrain of unregenerate man. For a time......he lives,,,,,,,then he dies. He's just a result of elaborate molecules from a pimordial soup that spawned a simple bacteria/virus 3.5 billion years ago.....or maybe just a cosmic seed from Mars's alleged past race of living organisms....or even a further terrestrial ball in the galaxy.

What a sad....refrain.......I'm born.......I eat, sleep, drive my favorite sports car, have children, become a widow/er get old........then die. Even the agent Greek Philosphers believed that their was a transcendent life....in fact they often debated it.....and most concluded that there was an unnamed elusive God.......responsible for all others.

Is that really all life means? Is that all that "ticks" within your souls, in your inner man/woman, or is there something resisting the desire to expect or hope that there's more to life than the latter?
****
Thank you , and I also apologize for my indulgence into a most likely off-topic bit of comment.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Looks like you selectively read my post....I said that you had it right about the Romans......but not the Jews intent or reasons for Jesus's death.

Romans......were forced into a political decision......by the Jews that wanted Jesus dead. The Jews reason wasn't political...but straight-on theological to a greater extent. He challenged their religiosity......I can see how it might be seen as a political move by the Jews to remove Jesus, as the Pharisee's and others of the Sanhedrin were the power base over the Jews, yet, Jesus was challenging their doctrinal basis or reasoning.

Bully......I think theres more than one side.......Jesus didn't come to politic.......but to save.....and to reveal the true nature of God........He did that succinctly and got killed for doing it. It had it's political angles, and most assuredly spiritual/theological angles as the Jews and Romans saw it.

When Jesus busted up the temple....and ran out all the money changers.........He indeed threatened a corrupt system that had been spawned from the Jewish religion. Basically, religion was a money making enterprise, and Jesus did threaten it........,but Jesus intent was scriptural, while man interpretted it politically, as they couldn't/wouldn't see His/Jesus's motives any other way, or they would have been under great conviction.

Jesus wanted the temple to be a house of worship, not a place of waiting thieves.....taking advantage of those that came in pure hearts to worship, pray, or other scriptural desires.

Bully, I'm not expecting or asking you to see it as a spiritual battle underneath the "politcal" appearance of all that happened. I just can't agree as one that sees much of what goes on in this present world in a spiritual way, since my Christian conversion.

The bible says that unconverted man can't discern the things of the Spirit.......I'm not quoting that to slam or to talk-down to anyone........I really think that we come to "logger heads" over these biblical issues with one another because there is a spiritual side to life that must be included in the reasoning faculties of us humans to be fully discerning of intent, and understanding with these issues.
....
I even believe that there is a big spiritual side to what goes on in nations. Seems that as nations come to esteem God in biblical ways......these nations seem to prosper in so many ways........I don't necessarily mean materially, but those nations tend to become stronger as a "people" or populous.

I find it so sad, yet predictable........how right after 9/11, churches of all denominations and non-denominations had and incredible upsurge in attendance.......yet current 06 attendance is down to below or at Pre-9/11 levels.

Suffering often drives us to look for answers. Especially when help for it, by all man-inspired ways doesn't help. It often drives atheists and agnotics to their knees for the first time in their lives. Why.....because I believe our Creator made us that way. We weren't designed to be self-sufficient. With our intellect, and ability to self analyze comes this cognizance of ourselves, our surroundings in a way that spands a canyon of distance from the other mammalian species.

This realization shows us that not one of us can or will sustain a level of peace, satisfaction, or self-security for any prolonged stretches of time. I think that our built-in mortality, is designed to show us that we aren't little or big gods. We aren't the captains of our lives, or we aren't suitable to be the captains.

Even that fire ball, the Apostle Paul, proclaimed that "When I am weak, He(God) is strong, therefore I(Paul) will boast in my weaknesses.".

How many here are willing to boast in their weaknesses? I doubt any of us would. Paul did. Why? Well, he discovered something very important about his humanity, and we all could do well to share in this discovery to. God can't help or work in our lives as long as we want to call the "shots" so-to-speak. It's a control issue....

Most folks fear biblical Christianity because they think or feel that they must give-up some kind of treasure of life for the mundane do's and don'ts of being Holy and likeable to God. Oh, what an absolute lie has been propagated upon our weak, miserable race!

We are born naked and we die naked.........we are from the molecules of the earth, and so shall we go back. What a sad refrain........but that's the refrain of unregenerate man. For a time......he lives,,,,,,,then he dies. He's just a result of elaborate molecules from a pimordial soup that spawned a simple bacteria/virus 3.5 billion years ago.....or maybe just a cosmic seed from Mars's alleged past race of living organisms....or even a further terrestrial ball in the galaxy.

What a sad....refrain.......I'm born.......I eat, sleep, drive my favorite sports car, have children, become a widow/er get old........then die. Even the agent Greek Philosphers believed that their was a transcendent life....in fact they often debated it.....and most concluded that there was an unnamed elusive God.......responsible for all others.

Is that really all life means? Is that all that "ticks" within your souls, in your inner man/woman, or is there something resisting the desire to expect or hope that there's more to life than the latter?
****
Thank you , and I also apologize for my indulgence into a most likely off-topic bit of comment.

We must agree to disagree. You find purpose and meaning in your faith, I find purpose and meaning in life itself. You have hope in an afterlife, I have hope in this life. We are simply following different paths to the same end.

Thank you, and I apologize for my peevishness.

 

[CockySOB]

We must agree to disagree. You find purpose and meaning in your faith, I find purpose and meaning in life itself. You have hope in an afterlife, I have hope in this life. We are simply following different paths to the same end.

Just curious, BP. Are you saying that you view having hope for an afterlife and having hope in this life as being mutually exclusive?

(BTW, when you speak of "the same end" you are speaking only of the temporal self, no? Spiritually, if you don't believe in the eternal nature of the human soul, then your statement might be more accurate as "We are simply following different paths to different ends.")

 

[Bullypulpit]

Just curious, BP. Are you saying that you view having hope for an afterlife and having hope in this life as being mutually exclusive?

(BTW, when you speak of "the same end" you are speaking only of the temporal self, no? Spiritually, if you don't believe in the eternal nature of the human soul, then your statement might be more accurate as "We are simply following different paths to different ends.")

Since I consider the pursuit of metaphysical goals to be a distraction from solving the problems that arise in this life and this world, you would seem to be correct in your assertion.

No, the end I am speaking of is the realization of our fullest potential, here and now. Uproot the rank weeds of metaphysics that have grown up around the world's great religions, and you find, essentially, the same end.

 

[Eightball]

Since I consider the pursuit of metaphysical goals to be a distraction from solving the problems that arise in this life and this world, you would seem to be correct in your assertion.

No, the end I am speaking of is the realization of our fullest potential, here and now. Uproot the rank weeds of metaphysics that have grown up around the world's great religions, and you find, essentially, the same end.

If you care to call the Christian faith "metaphysics" thats your "call".

But to say or infer that you are interested in "this" life, and people of faith aren't is so incorrect.

Bully you have overlooked all the wonderful contributions that Christians have given to earthly life/society......

I'll name just one, but there's so many more.........

Michael Faraday.....The father of electric motors/generators. If his strong biblical faith was just centered on the afterlife......why indeed did Mr. Faraday spend his life working on projects such as the above that have so enhanced and saved mankind so much labor in so many ways?

It's also very presumptuous to say that interest in this life is exclusive to those that don't hold to a faith that has hope, and belief in life after physical, earthly death.

Christians were for the most part those that were the Freedom Riders that went down to the Southern states and faced threats to their lives in the early civil rights movement.

It goes on and on.

 

[CockySOB]

Since I consider the pursuit of metaphysical goals to be a distraction from solving the problems that arise in this life and this world, you would seem to be correct in your assertion.

No, the end I am speaking of is the realization of our fullest potential, here and now. Uproot the rank weeds of metaphysics that have grown up around the world's great religions, and you find, essentially, the same end.

How very sad. I pity you your lack of vision (or perhaps your lack of education). The study of metaphysics has driven humanity's pursuit of arts and sciences. Have you ever read Aristotle's Metaphysics?

I think perhaps, you are painting metaphysics with a broad brush, all the while intending only on disparaging the theological and spiritual aspects of metaphysics. In fact, your lack of understanding of abstract thought is exemplified in your rejection of metaphysics as being simply "a distraction."

Perhaps you would want to re-state your opinions with more specific verbage, so as to remove potential misunderstandings?

 

[glockmail]

Any corroboration by investigators outside the Church?

On May 14, 1856, Mother Guerin died at Saint Mary-of-the-Woods, Indiana, of natural causes. She is buried at the Church of the Immaculate Conception in Saint Mary-of-the-Woods, Indiana, USA. Her canonization miracle involved the cure of a non-Catholic Sisters of Providence employee. From henceforth she shall be known as Saint Mother Guerin!

http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/10/canonization-of-mother-guerin-and.html

 

[Jennifer.Bush]

THAT is on their official web site? How incredibily lame and stupid!

how is that lame?

wasn't it the christian god who told jousha to kill everything "breathing" get real!!