Most successful fighter in WWII

[Kruska]

Another disadvantage it had was that it was a short ranged point defense interceptor. Its total range was barely five hundred miles. That a less than one hundred fifty mile combat radius. It had a shorter combat radius than a late model Me-109.

The D series - not to mention the D-11 to D-15 could compete with anything contemporary the Allied had. It was I think leading/advanced in regards to having e.g. only one control lever. Range didn't matter in 1944 - anything that could go to 300mls would be great.
The German prop aircraft - aside form material and quality problems were not the issue - but the total lack of experienced/trained pilots. My father was a known and outspoken opponent towards the Me-262, since a huge pilot manpower drain was exerted onto units that did and could have flown far more effective aircraft such as the Fw-190D series and Bf-109K's. Well anyway it was his opinion.

 

[Oddball]

If you are going to just go by air to air kills it is the P-47. I knew Hub Zemke very well and I learned a lot about the air war from him, and also from Gunther Rall with whom I had a long friendship.

From them I learned three important things.

Pilot quality was absolutely the most important thing. Good pilots could make even obsolete aircraft deadly opponents.

The aircraft that were successful needed to be able to get where the action was. No range, no fighting. Further, they needed a good balance of maneuverability and firepower.

And lastly they needed to be used correctly. A P-51 was terrible for ground attack, they used them for that, but the water cooled engines were susceptible to damage from small arms fire that a radial engined fighter, like the P-47, would simply shrug off.

The P-38 did an excellent job in the Pacific, but not as well in Europe. At one point one fighter group equipped with them had a kill ratio of 1/20.

The 56th FG with P-47s, had the highest success of all fighter groups with a 7/1 kill ratio. The P-51 equipped 4th FG only managed a kill ratio of 3.8/1.

Granted, by the time the P-51 showed up in quantity the bulk of the Luftwaffe was in decline in pilots, aircraft, and most importantly fuel, so their training was severely impacted because of that.

No air supremacy over Europe without the P-51....Only the far-too-late Dora 13 could compete with it.

Though it lacked the range for deep penetration escort, the P-47 was a nearly indestructible beast and easily the best close air support/attack platform not named Stuka or Stormovik.

Glaringly absent from the conversation is the Pacific.

F6F and F4U absolutely laid waste to the Jap air forces.....The latter next to indispensable in close support.

 

[westwall]

No air supremacy over Europe without the P-51....Only the far-too-late Dora 13 could compete with it.

Though it lacked the range for deep penetration escort, the P-47 was a nearly indestructible beast and easily the best close air support/attack platform not named Stuka or Stormovik.

Glaringly absent from the conversation is the Pacific.

F6F and F4U absolutely laid waste to the Jap air forces.....The latter next to indispensable in close support.

You are correct, the F6F especially was the bane of the Japanese fighter units. The F4U as well was a notable killer.

The latter N variant of the P-47 had the legs to go all the way to Berlin with its wet wing. Also above 30,000 feet it was superior to the P-51H and able to take on the TA-152.

 

[Zincwarrior]

I feel like getting into a knock down and tumble fight. What long ranged fighter had the most affect for the Allies in WWII?

Pretty much, you can discount all British Fighters. Yes, even the coveted Mossie. If the Mossie found it's way into a one v one against a FW190, it was time to get the hell out of there using it's top speed. Therefore, Fighter Sweeps, Bomber Escorts and such were out of the question. And none of the fighters produced in a large quantity had the range to go very far into France much less Germany.

It brings it down to the big 3. The P-38, P-47 and P-51.

The first "Fighter" that was over Berlin ended up there by itself because it's bomber group turned back an no one told the fighters. That was 1943. So they turned it into something brand new, a Fighter sweep. Wonderful success. At that time, the only P-51 that was available was the Allisson Engined A model and it neither had the range nor the altitude to do the job. The A-36 Apache was just a P-51A depending what country was flying it. At that time, the only 400mph+ fighter was the Lightning and it had more than enough range to reach berlin, cause havoc and return. The problem is, starting in 1942 to the middle of 1943, they made the P-38 fly with the bombers. This resulted in the P-38 to be closer to his stall speed than his combat speed. No fighter could protect the bombers like that. Plus, all the mechanical problems that were completely ironed out by August 1943 and had the J models in the field. At the same time, they released the P-38 to fly ahead and above the fighters and ambush enemy fighter formation. This also allowed the P-47 to get a big string of air kills because they did this up to the German Border escorting bombers. The Luftwaffe was finally starting to lose in a big way and more and more bombers got through. Until then the P-38G and below had all sorts of problems not related to the Aircraft itself. The lack of training on twin engine Fighters (the P-38 was the only one in AAF and the 2 seater humpback wasn't introduced yet), the cockpit was below zero at 20K and higher and there was no heat. They did try and use Bomber Heated Flight Suits but that was just a stopgap. In 1942, until the middle of 1943, the Luftwaffe outnumbered the P-38 11 to 1 the the Luftwaffe had a 11 to one kill rate. From August 1943 to the end, the P-38s chalked up a 11 to 1 kill rate. Both the P-38 and P-47 would strafe on their way back and destroy a whole bunch of trains, trucks and other military targets all through the war.

The P-47 was introduced in numbers in 1942. But it had a range problem. As long as it was in range, it was a mighty fighter as long as you kept it off the deck. All the good things I said about the P-38 also goes for the P-47 except it didn't operate over Germany until the allies had bases in France. Without it, though, the allies would have run completely out of P-38s and daylight bombers.

The P-51 was originally introduced as the A-36A or the P-51A. It used the Allisson Engine without the turbosupercharger. Meaning, it was pretty good from 15K and below but above that and it ran out of power fast. It wasn't much better than a P-40. But when it was married to the Packard Merlin with the 2 Speed 2 Stage Supercharger, it really woke up. While the first B flew in late 1942, it didn't go into full production until September 1943. By then, the P-38J-25 was already being used. The P-51C was produced starting in October 1943 and was the same as the B, just out of a different city. What the AAF had to look at is, the P-51B/C took half the training and cost half as much as a P-38J-25 even though the P-38 was the better overall fighter. What slowed the P-38 down for bomber escort was when lemay decided to do a test between the P-51B and P-47 to find out which one was the better Bomber Escort. He left out the P-38. The P-51B narrowly won as they had not completely figured out the proper way to distrubute the P-51 fuel load yet. Before they figured that out, there were still days when the p-38 was chosen for bomber escort when the B-24s went to eastern Germany which was beyond the range of the p-51 or when they ran out of P-51s. The P-51B didn't start to come into England until late December and early January. By then, the P-38 and the P-47 had severely cut down the Luftwaffe. Oh, there still were plenty to shoot at but not like it was. By the time the Mustang came in force, they were well into the fighter sweeps. BTW, the worst of the 3 for the ground fighter sweeps was the P-51.

Overall, I would have to pick the P-38 which would narrowly win out over the P-47 for the most affective WWII long ranged fighter. The P-51 had slightly more than a year of participation while the other two slugged it out all the way through.

You have to add the Yaks to the list. They did the work destroying the luftwaffe on the Eastern front.

Going to put in the humble Wildcat. It did more to murder the Kido Butai's air crews than any other plane in 1942 and early 1943. When an IJN pilot saw the blue wings of a wildcat, he saw Death coming for his soul.

 

[Oddball]

You are correct, the F6F especially was the bane of the Japanese fighter units. The F4U as well was a notable killer.

The latter N variant of the P-47 had the legs to go all the way to Berlin with its wet wing. Also above 30,000 feet it was superior to the P-51H and able to take on the TA-152.

I put the N model in there with Dora 13 & 152.....Though a great platform, too late to matter.

 

[Oddball]

Going to put in the humble Wildcat. It did more to murder the Kido Butai's air crews than any other plane in 1942 and early 1943. When an IJN pilot saw the blue wings of a wildcat, he saw Death coming for his soul.

When a Zero pilot saw an F4F, all he had to do was put his plane into a vertical climb and wait for the Wildcat to stall first....Game over.

 

[westwall]

When a Zero pilot saw an F4F, all he had to do was put his plane into a vertical climb and wait for the Wildcat to stall first....Game over.

Yup. The Zero could simply ignore an F4F. Not so the F6F.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The D series - not to mention the D-11 to D-15 could compete with anything contemporary the Allied had. It was I think leading/advanced in regards to having e.g. only one control lever. Range didn't matter in 1944 - anything that could go to 300mls would be great.
The German prop aircraft - aside form material and quality problems were not the issue - but the total lack of experienced/trained pilots. My father was a known and outspoken opponent towards the Me-262, since a huge pilot manpower drain was exerted onto units that did and could have flown far more effective aircraft such as the Fw-190D series and Bf-109K's. Well anyway it was his opinion.

Range only didn’t matter for a point defense interceptor. With that short a combat radius, allied bombers would nearly have to fly right over its airfield for it to intercept them. The Dora was a one-trick pony. Because of that it was inferior to every mid to late war US fighter. Simple controls are nice, but all you are talking about is the throttle and mixture controls, the pilot still had to operate propellor pitch, throttle, stick, gun arming controls, reflector sight controls and hundreds of other controls.

 

[Kruska]

No air supremacy over Europe without the P-51....Only the far-too-late Dora 13 could compete with it.

Though it lacked the range for deep penetration escort, the P-47 was a nearly indestructible beast and easily the best close air support/attack platform not named Stuka or Stormovik.

Glaringly absent from the conversation is the Pacific.

F6F and F4U absolutely laid waste to the Jap air forces.....The latter next to indispensable in close support.

Thanks I had forwarded these aircraft and also the F6F, incl. the P-36 that did it's job towards Zero's during the Pearl-harbor attack in a previous post.
The value of the P-47 was certainly recognized in the Pacific - since If I am not totally misinformed, was used extensively during the Korea campaign.
Grabewsik or Gabresky as one of these US aces flying a P-47.

 

[westwall]

Thanks I had forwarded these aircraft and also the F6F, incl. the P-36 that did it's job towards Zero's during the Pearl-harbor attack in a previous post.
The value of the P-47 was certainly recognized in the Pacific - since If I am not totally misinformed, was used extensively during the Korea campaign.
Grabewsik or Gabresky as one of these US aces flying a P-47.

Thanks I had forwarded these aircraft and also the F6F, incl. the P-36 that did it's job towards Zero's during the Pearl-harbor attack in a previous post.
The value of the P-47 was certainly recognized in the Pacific - since If I am not totally misinformed, was used extensively during the Korea campaign.
Grabewsik or Gabresky as one of these US aces flying a P-47.

No, the P-47 was not used in Korea. A huge mistake given the number of Mustangs lost on close air support missions.

 

[AZrailwhale]

When a Zero pilot saw an F4F, all he had to do was put his plane into a vertical climb and wait for the Wildcat to stall first....Game over.

Funny, that wasn’t how it worked out in combat once Wildcat pilots learned not to dogfight Zeros. The Zeros had to come close to the Wildcats to destroy them, then teamwork and tactics made Wildcats lethal to Zeros. At speeds above two hundred knots Wildcats and every other American fighter could out turn the Zero. That was what the US found when they tested the captured Zero, those big ailerons that made it so maneuverable would seize up at high speed. Wildcats would never try to climb with Zeros.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Thanks I had forwarded these aircraft and also the F6F, incl. the P-36 that did it's job towards Zero's during the Pearl-harbor attack in a previous post.
The value of the P-47 was certainly recognized in the Pacific - since If I am not totally misinformed, was used extensively during the Korea campaign.
Grabewsik or Gabresky as one of these US aces flying a P-47.

Nope no P-47s we’re used in Korea.

 

[Sunni Man]

When a Zero pilot saw an F4F, all he had to do was put his plane into a vertical climb and wait for the Wildcat to stall first....Game over.

When the F6F first entered the Pacific theater.
Several skilled Zero pilots enticed another blue painted US fighter into a vertical climb fight, only to find out too late.
The blue plane wasn't the familiar F4F they could easily out climb and then shoot down when it lost power.
But the new F6F that could vertically out climb their Zero and shoot them down when it lost power.

 

[westwall]

Nope no P-47s we’re used in Korea.

I already said that.

 

[Kruska]

Range only didn’t matter for a point defense interceptor. With that short a combat radius, allied bombers would nearly have to fly right over its airfield for it to intercept them. The Dora was a one-trick pony. Because of that it was inferior to every mid to late war US fighter. Simple controls are nice, but all you are talking about is the throttle and mixture controls, the pilot still had to operate propellor pitch, throttle, stick, gun arming controls, reflector sight controls and hundreds of other controls.

Well the Me-163 was a point interceptor - so would have been the almost or actually ready Natter - wonder who would have voluntarily flown the Natter - God in Heavens.

The Luftwaffe wasn't blind towards approaching Bombers - they had the radar's warning them hours ahead. The D-9 series were not intended for dogfight or fighter combat but primarily against bombers. Same goes for the Me-262 right down to the Do-335 with it's extreme weaponry, replacing the ill fated ideas or necessity of the Me-210/410 and even Bf-110's attacking bomber formations. And they were fast and able enough to penetrate the allied fighter escorts and make a run home.

The major problem that the D series faced, was that the vast majority of it's pilots didn't know how to get off from the runway, to assemble and navigate towards their assigned targets.

The only pure fighter aircraft developed from 1943 onward were the D-11-15 series and the thus resulting Ta-152 - one might argue the Salamander also into this equation. During their development time the D-11-15 and the Ta-152 were endlessly differently configured in their weaponry - again due to the ever increasing bomber issue - thus again loosing most of their air combat ability.

It was Galland and others who finally managed to convince the upper echelons to reconfigure the Blitz-bomber Me-262 into the initially intended interceptor. Hopefully becoming the ultimate bomber destroyer and possessing the speed to evade any following Allied fighters - off course it did not exclude the Me-262 from sneaking up on a fighter and blasting it to smithereens with 4x30mm.

The Luftwaffe from end 1943 onward wasn't interested into dogfights, or fighter onto fighter comparison, but aircraft that could approach and penetrate the Bomber escorts.

 

[Zincwarrior]

When a Zero pilot saw an F4F, all he had to do was put his plane into a vertical climb and wait for the Wildcat to stall first....Game over.

James Thach thinks you're funny! From 1941 - early 1943 thousands of Japanese airmen died. Nothing says love like a boom and zoom burning another Val.

It was even loved by RAF crews.*

*Nothing weirder than to watch old RAF film of RN attacks against the Tirpitz and seeing Corsairs whizzing by the camera flying cover against German fighters.

 

[westwall]

Well the Me-163 was a point interceptor - so would have been the almost or actually ready Natter - wonder who would have voluntarily flown the Natter - God in Heavens.

The Luftwaffe wasn't blind towards approaching Bombers - they had the radar's warning them hours ahead. The D-9 series were not intended for dogfight or fighter combat but primarily against bombers. Same goes for the Me-262 right down to the Do-335 with it's extreme weaponry, replacing the ill fated ideas or necessity of the Me-210/410 and even Bf-110's attacking bomber formations. And they were fast and able enough to penetrate the allied fighter escorts and make a run home.

The major problem that the D series faced, was that the vast majority of it's pilots didn't know how to get off from the runway, to assemble and navigate towards their assigned targets.

The only pure fighter aircraft developed from 1943 onward were the D-11-15 series and the thus resulting Ta-152 - one might argue the Salamander also into this equation. During their development time the D-11-15 and the Ta-152 were endlessly differently configured in their weaponry - again due to the ever increasing bomber issue - thus again loosing most of their air combat ability.

It was Galland and others who finally managed to convince the upper echelons to reconfigure the Blitz-bomber Me-262 into the initially intended interceptor. Hopefully becoming the ultimate bomber destroyer and possessing the speed to evade any following Allied fighters - off course it did not exclude the Me-262 from sneaking up on a fighter and blasting it to smithereens with 4x30mm.

The Luftwaffe from end 1943 onward wasn't interested into dogfights, or fighter onto fighter comparison, but aircraft that could approach and penetrate the Bomber escorts.

The Mk 108 cannon on the 262 was truly only suitable for bombers. It was incredibly destructive when it hit (2 or three hits would bring down a B-17), but the velocity was very low. As was the rate of fire.

 

[Mushroom]

Nope no P-47s we’re used in Korea.

The pilots wanted to use the P-47 because it was better armored than the P-51. A lot of the Mustang pilots that were flying CAS missions were shot down by ground fire.

However, there were more P-51s in the USAF inventory, so that is what they sent.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Isn't it correct that P47s scored more kills than the P51?

 

[westwall]

James Thach thinks you're funny! From 1941 - early 1943 thousands of Japanese airmen died. Nothing says love like a boom and zoom burning another Val.

You mean John?(Jimmy was his nickname) And no, it wasn't the zoom climb that he used, it was the "Thach Weave" that was so successful. In other words, tactics and numbers defeated a superior performing fighter.