Minimum wage

[danielpalos]

Only the right wing thinks Capitalism's, natural rate of unemployment means nothing. Being, naturally unemployed to help out Capitalism with its natural rate of unemployment deserves a bailout.

There is no natural rate of unemployment
Anyone can be employed if they want to be
It may not be in the job of their choosing but they can be employed if they so choose for the simple reason that anyone can choose to be self employed

there is no unemployment, only underpayment in our First World economy.

supply and demand determine the price of labor. Want higher pay? get more skills so that your work is in more demand.

Society does not owe you a "fair" wage. whatever the **** that is. You are only owed that which you earn.

Society should help those who are physically or mentally unable to work, everyone else should be on their own.

supply and demand means there is no unemployment, only underpayment, if you want to insist on a work ethic from the Age of Iron.

why do brain surgeons make more than trash collectors? Is it not supply and demand?

rules and regulations affect, supply and demand in any first world.

 

[Skull Pilot]

That's funny

don't believe in equality in the, "hard work" sector? i can work harder than most any rich guy. i deserve my bailout more, since i practice a work ethic from the, historical, Age of Iron.

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

the rich get paid for not being fools or horses.

They don't get paid at all they live off of the value of their assets

If you wanted to you could also live off your investments and assets but first you would have to work to attain them but we all know you don't want to work you just want to get 14 dollar an hour welfare for the rest of your life

You have very low aspirations which is why you will be a very low achiever.

 

[danielpalos]

don't believe in equality in the, "hard work" sector? i can work harder than most any rich guy. i deserve my bailout more, since i practice a work ethic from the, historical, Age of Iron.

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

the rich get paid for not being fools or horses.

They don't get paid at all they live off of the value of their assets

If you wanted to you could also live off your investments and assets but first you would have to work to attain them but we all know you don't want to work you just want to get 14 dollar an hour welfare for the rest of your life

You have very low aspirations which is why you will be a very low achiever.

you seem to be missing the point; we have already been paying for a War on Poverty for over a generation, to a tune of over several trillion dollars. We should be actually solving simple poverty and realizing sufficient gain from efficiency, to lower our tax burden.

 

[Skull Pilot]

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

the rich get paid for not being fools or horses.

They don't get paid at all they live off of the value of their assets

If you wanted to you could also live off your investments and assets but first you would have to work to attain them but we all know you don't want to work you just want to get 14 dollar an hour welfare for the rest of your life

You have very low aspirations which is why you will be a very low achiever.

you seem to be missing the point; we have already been paying for a War on Poverty for over a generation, to a tune of over several trillion dollars. We should be actually solving simple poverty and realizing sufficient gain from efficiency, to lower our tax burden.

It wouldn't lower the tax burden to pay everyone who chooses not to work almost 30K a year
Where do you think that money will come from?

 

[danielpalos]

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

the rich get paid for not being fools or horses.

They don't get paid at all they live off of the value of their assets

If you wanted to you could also live off your investments and assets but first you would have to work to attain them but we all know you don't want to work you just want to get 14 dollar an hour welfare for the rest of your life

You have very low aspirations which is why you will be a very low achiever.

you seem to be missing the point; we have already been paying for a War on Poverty for over a generation, to a tune of over several trillion dollars. We should be actually solving simple poverty and realizing sufficient gain from efficiency, to lower our tax burden.

It wouldn't lower the tax burden to pay everyone who chooses not to work almost 30K a year
Where do you think that money will come from?

Yes, it means capital will be circulating more efficiently and more people will be paying more consumption based taxes.

It doesn't matter where the money comes from, since it is an investment in the general welfare and will generate a positive multiplier effect on our economy.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

the rich get paid for not being fools or horses.

They don't get paid at all they live off of the value of their assets

If you wanted to you could also live off your investments and assets but first you would have to work to attain them but we all know you don't want to work you just want to get 14 dollar an hour welfare for the rest of your life

You have very low aspirations which is why you will be a very low achiever.

you seem to be missing the point; we have already been paying for a War on Poverty for over a generation, to a tune of over several trillion dollars. We should be actually solving simple poverty and realizing sufficient gain from efficiency, to lower our tax burden.

It wouldn't lower the tax burden to pay everyone who chooses not to work almost 30K a year
Where do you think that money will come from?

Yes, it means capital will be circulating more efficiently and more people will be paying more consumption based taxes.

It doesn't matter where the money comes from, since it is an investment in the general welfare and will generate a positive multiplier effect on our economy.

where will all that money come from?

Of course it matters you say you want to reduce the tax burden but if we use tax dollars to pay everyone like you who doesn't want to work 30K a year the tax burden will not be reduced

 

[danielpalos]

the rich get paid for not being fools or horses.

They don't get paid at all they live off of the value of their assets

If you wanted to you could also live off your investments and assets but first you would have to work to attain them but we all know you don't want to work you just want to get 14 dollar an hour welfare for the rest of your life

You have very low aspirations which is why you will be a very low achiever.

you seem to be missing the point; we have already been paying for a War on Poverty for over a generation, to a tune of over several trillion dollars. We should be actually solving simple poverty and realizing sufficient gain from efficiency, to lower our tax burden.

It wouldn't lower the tax burden to pay everyone who chooses not to work almost 30K a year
Where do you think that money will come from?

Yes, it means capital will be circulating more efficiently and more people will be paying more consumption based taxes.

It doesn't matter where the money comes from, since it is an investment in the general welfare and will generate a positive multiplier effect on our economy.

where will all that money come from?

Of course it matters you say you want to reduce the tax burden but if we use tax dollars to pay everyone like you who doesn't want to work 30K a year the tax burden will not be reduced

let's end our War on Drugs; it is pure, nationalism and socialism, all rolled into something the right wing, doesn't mind.

 

[Skull Pilot]

They don't get paid at all they live off of the value of their assets

If you wanted to you could also live off your investments and assets but first you would have to work to attain them but we all know you don't want to work you just want to get 14 dollar an hour welfare for the rest of your life

You have very low aspirations which is why you will be a very low achiever.

you seem to be missing the point; we have already been paying for a War on Poverty for over a generation, to a tune of over several trillion dollars. We should be actually solving simple poverty and realizing sufficient gain from efficiency, to lower our tax burden.

It wouldn't lower the tax burden to pay everyone who chooses not to work almost 30K a year
Where do you think that money will come from?

Yes, it means capital will be circulating more efficiently and more people will be paying more consumption based taxes.

It doesn't matter where the money comes from, since it is an investment in the general welfare and will generate a positive multiplier effect on our economy.

where will all that money come from?

Of course it matters you say you want to reduce the tax burden but if we use tax dollars to pay everyone like you who doesn't want to work 30K a year the tax burden will not be reduced

let's end our War on Drugs; it is pure, nationalism and socialism, all rolled into something the right wing, doesn't mind.

Yes let's end the war on drugs and give that money back to the people who pay taxes not to lazy ***** who don't want to work

 

[danielpalos]

you seem to be missing the point; we have already been paying for a War on Poverty for over a generation, to a tune of over several trillion dollars. We should be actually solving simple poverty and realizing sufficient gain from efficiency, to lower our tax burden.

It wouldn't lower the tax burden to pay everyone who chooses not to work almost 30K a year
Where do you think that money will come from?

Yes, it means capital will be circulating more efficiently and more people will be paying more consumption based taxes.

It doesn't matter where the money comes from, since it is an investment in the general welfare and will generate a positive multiplier effect on our economy.

where will all that money come from?

Of course it matters you say you want to reduce the tax burden but if we use tax dollars to pay everyone like you who doesn't want to work 30K a year the tax burden will not be reduced

let's end our War on Drugs; it is pure, nationalism and socialism, all rolled into something the right wing, doesn't mind.

Yes let's end the war on drugs and give that money back to the people who pay taxes not to lazy ***** who don't want to work

we would not need an income tax, but for our wars on crime, drugs, poverty, and terror.

 

[frigidweirdo]

i am willing to work harder than any rich guy; so, i deserve a bailout.

That's funny

don't believe in equality in the, "hard work" sector? i can work harder than most any rich guy. i deserve my bailout more, since i practice a work ethic from the, historical, Age of Iron.

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

 

[Andylusion]

That's funny

don't believe in equality in the, "hard work" sector? i can work harder than most any rich guy. i deserve my bailout more, since i practice a work ethic from the, historical, Age of Iron.

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

Really? Prove that.

Moreover, everyone will take something for nothing. If you are stupid enough to pay me to sit at home, I'll take your money. Who wouldn't?

As I've said many times, my problem isn't with people taking welfare. I don't sit here and say "I can't believe people are taking welfare and food stamps!".... I don't say that.

I say... "I can't believe we are stupid enough to give everyone food stamps and welfare".

People adapt to the incentives you give them. If you give something for nothing, they'll take something for nothing. It's YOUR fault for being that dumb. Not their fault for taking advantage of your incompetence.

Again, I pointed out that the Native Americans are the absolute most subsidized group in the US today. And they have the lowest income, and wealth in the entire country.

Why? Because they sit there, do nothing, and collect handouts.

The native American tribe not recognized by the government, which collects no handouts, lives an American standard of living.

Same was true in Japan with the Zombie Firms. These dead firms with zero chance of being profitable, but collecting government bailouts to keep them open. They had no reason to move on to profitable adventures, because they were being paid to do nothing. The result was stagnation for the entire country.

Was it the firms fault for taking the money? No. Why wouldn't they? Everyone is going to take what they can get. It's human nature.

It's your fault for subsidizing stupidity.

So when you say Trump is taking money.... (assuming it's true), why wouldn't he? It's your fault for giving out the money.

End all those government grants. End the subsidies. I don't see right-wing people demanding more government handouts. I don't see Right-wingers demanding more hand outs.

You show me the conservative on this forum, promoting more government grants to business? Where's that thread?

When you complain about "so and so gets government handouts!"..... the only person you can blame is yourself and other left-wingers like you. Not us. We don't push that ideology. We want less government spending, and less taxes, and less handouts.

 

[Andylusion]

If all five of my businesses folded today, all of my 650 employees would be out of work and I'd remain a multimillionaire.

An employee sells his/her labor IF he/she can find a new job.

Sorry but there is no way in hell you own even one business
It's not the employers fault if an employee who no longer works for him can find a job or not

If a person doesn't want to be at the mercy of others for work then he can work for himself

talk is cheap; most small businesses fail due to under-capitalization.

a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and fourteen dollars an hour for unemployment compensation, provides a bailout.

A bailout for who? Lazy shits like you who would choose not to work?

i am willing to work harder than any rich guy; so, i deserve a bailout.

That's funny

"i am willing to work harder than any rich guy; so, i deserve a bailout."

Sorry, but I had to respond to that.

The guy I currently work for... He arrives at work at 7 AM. He'll leave work at 7 PM, to as late as 11 PM. He will mop the floor himself.... and I've seen him empty his own trash can.

If product misses the shipping truck, he'll load up his personal Jaguire with customer product, and drive it personally to FedEx or UPS.

I've seen him come in on Saturday, and Sunday. There is not one person in the entire plant of 200 people, that works as many hours as he does. Not one.

When someone says "I work harder than any rich guy"..... I doubt it.

Moreover, working hard doesn't make you deserve anything. You deserve what people are willing to pay you, and nothing more.

 

[frigidweirdo]

don't believe in equality in the, "hard work" sector? i can work harder than most any rich guy. i deserve my bailout more, since i practice a work ethic from the, historical, Age of Iron.

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

Really? Prove that.

Prove it? Okay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/nyregion/donald-trump-tax-breaks-real-estate.html?_r=0

"
A Trump Empire Built on Inside Connections and $885 Million in Tax Breaks"


Donald Trump: Developer has thrived with government's generosity

"From his first high-profile project in New York City in the 1970s to his recent campaigns to reduce taxes on property he owns around the country, Trump has displayed a consistent pattern. He courted public officials, sought their backing for government tax breaks under extraordinarily beneficial terms and fought any resistance to deals he negotiated."

"Karen Burstein, a former auditor general of New York City, reviewed a major Trump project in the 1980s and concluded he had "cheated" the city out of nearly $2.9 million. Decades later, Burstein said she was still appalled at the way Trump operated."

"Referring to how he managed to win a 40-year tax abatement for rebuilding a crumbling hotel at Grand Central Station — a deal that in the first decade cost taxpayers $60 million"

"Trump also sought access to a federal program that would have guaranteed a $356-million low-interest loan in exchange for designating a percentage of the units for lower-income families."

"He eventually settled for a $34-million reduction, which local officials said cost millions in improperly reduced tax revenue."

"In Las Vegas, Trump's goal was to lower the taxable value of the recently constructed Trump International Hotel and Tower. His team, which included the former chairman of the county Board of Equalization — the agency that decides tax matters — won a reduction last year in the taxable value from $180 million to $8.6 million."

Donald Trump Has Mastered the Art of the Tax Break

"
The exemption, valued at $163.775 million in total on commercial property taxes, began in 2004 and ends in 2016."

 

[frigidweirdo]

don't believe in equality in the, "hard work" sector? i can work harder than most any rich guy. i deserve my bailout more, since i practice a work ethic from the, historical, Age of Iron.

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

Really? Prove that.

Prove it? Okay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/nyregion/donald-trump-tax-breaks-real-estate.html?_r=0

"
A Trump Empire Built on Inside Connections and $885 Million in Tax Breaks"


Donald Trump: Developer has thrived with government's generosity

"From his first high-profile project in New York City in the 1970s to his recent campaigns to reduce taxes on property he owns around the country, Trump has displayed a consistent pattern. He courted public officials, sought their backing for government tax breaks under extraordinarily beneficial terms and fought any resistance to deals he negotiated."

"Karen Burstein, a former auditor general of New York City, reviewed a major Trump project in the 1980s and concluded he had "cheated" the city out of nearly $2.9 million. Decades later, Burstein said she was still appalled at the way Trump operated."

"Referring to how he managed to win a 40-year tax abatement for rebuilding a crumbling hotel at Grand Central Station — a deal that in the first decade cost taxpayers $60 million"

"Trump also sought access to a federal program that would have guaranteed a $356-million low-interest loan in exchange for designating a percentage of the units for lower-income families."

"He eventually settled for a $34-million reduction, which local officials said cost millions in improperly reduced tax revenue."

"In Las Vegas, Trump's goal was to lower the taxable value of the recently constructed Trump International Hotel and Tower. His team, which included the former chairman of the county Board of Equalization — the agency that decides tax matters — won a reduction last year in the taxable value from $180 million to $8.6 million."

Donald Trump Has Mastered the Art of the Tax Break

"
The exemption, valued at $163.775 million in total on commercial property taxes, began in 2004 and ends in 2016."

 

[frigidweirdo]

don't believe in equality in the, "hard work" sector? i can work harder than most any rich guy. i deserve my bailout more, since i practice a work ethic from the, historical, Age of Iron.

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

Really? Prove that.

Moreover, everyone will take something for nothing. If you are stupid enough to pay me to sit at home, I'll take your money. Who wouldn't?

As I've said many times, my problem isn't with people taking welfare. I don't sit here and say "I can't believe people are taking welfare and food stamps!".... I don't say that.

I say... "I can't believe we are stupid enough to give everyone food stamps and welfare".

People adapt to the incentives you give them. If you give something for nothing, they'll take something for nothing. It's YOUR fault for being that dumb. Not their fault for taking advantage of your incompetence.

Again, I pointed out that the Native Americans are the absolute most subsidized group in the US today. And they have the lowest income, and wealth in the entire country.

Why? Because they sit there, do nothing, and collect handouts.

The native American tribe not recognized by the government, which collects no handouts, lives an American standard of living.

Same was true in Japan with the Zombie Firms. These dead firms with zero chance of being profitable, but collecting government bailouts to keep them open. They had no reason to move on to profitable adventures, because they were being paid to do nothing. The result was stagnation for the entire country.

Was it the firms fault for taking the money? No. Why wouldn't they? Everyone is going to take what they can get. It's human nature.

It's your fault for subsidizing stupidity.

So when you say Trump is taking money.... (assuming it's true), why wouldn't he? It's your fault for giving out the money.

End all those government grants. End the subsidies. I don't see right-wing people demanding more government handouts. I don't see Right-wingers demanding more hand outs.

You show me the conservative on this forum, promoting more government grants to business? Where's that thread?

When you complain about "so and so gets government handouts!"..... the only person you can blame is yourself and other left-wingers like you. Not us. We don't push that ideology. We want less government spending, and less taxes, and less handouts.

It's nice that you bring up the Native Americans. They have been given "subsidies" often as a way of keeping them down. They have suffered massively at the hands of the US govt and the people in general couldn't give a damn.

But yes, I agree with you that subsidies used wrongly have a negative impact. You're not really telling me anything I don't agree with. My personal view is that workers should not get money unless they've worked for 5 years. Kids who are struggling before this would get money if they went back into some kind of education AND achieved certain goals. This education could be things like job training.

The question is why govt is so messed up. I mean, if you own a business with many shops and you hire a manager for one of the shops and he does bad things, why do you keep him? But when it comes to elections the people are electing people who don't have the interests of the people at heart, they're messing up the system. Why does this happen? It happens because voters don't have a clue, don't educate themselves. People come in this forum and talk absolute crap all the time. One guy said he was a Nationalist. I told him to ignore -isms and -ists and just go and find out information and debate it. His response "I'm a Nationalist", basically he had no interest in finding out the truth, he just wanted to promote his "view" of the world. How many people are like this? Too many.

 

[Andylusion]

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

Really? Prove that.

Prove it? Okay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/nyregion/donald-trump-tax-breaks-real-estate.html?_r=0

"
A Trump Empire Built on Inside Connections and $885 Million in Tax Breaks"


Donald Trump: Developer has thrived with government's generosity

"From his first high-profile project in New York City in the 1970s to his recent campaigns to reduce taxes on property he owns around the country, Trump has displayed a consistent pattern. He courted public officials, sought their backing for government tax breaks under extraordinarily beneficial terms and fought any resistance to deals he negotiated."

"Karen Burstein, a former auditor general of New York City, reviewed a major Trump project in the 1980s and concluded he had "cheated" the city out of nearly $2.9 million. Decades later, Burstein said she was still appalled at the way Trump operated."

"Referring to how he managed to win a 40-year tax abatement for rebuilding a crumbling hotel at Grand Central Station — a deal that in the first decade cost taxpayers $60 million"

"Trump also sought access to a federal program that would have guaranteed a $356-million low-interest loan in exchange for designating a percentage of the units for lower-income families."

"He eventually settled for a $34-million reduction, which local officials said cost millions in improperly reduced tax revenue."

"In Las Vegas, Trump's goal was to lower the taxable value of the recently constructed Trump International Hotel and Tower. His team, which included the former chairman of the county Board of Equalization — the agency that decides tax matters — won a reduction last year in the taxable value from $180 million to $8.6 million."

Donald Trump Has Mastered the Art of the Tax Break

"
The exemption, valued at $163.775 million in total on commercial property taxes, began in 2004 and ends in 2016."

First answer this question....

Do you believe that the entire population of the country, and weighted heavily towards the lower 50% of the country, is getting something for nothing? Is costing the tax payers hundreds of billions? And is that wrong?

Because everyone is getting tax deductions, just like Trump. Moreover, unlike Trump, the lower half of the country pays almost no income tax at all. Zero.

So is that wrong? Because that's what your article points to.

See unlike Trump, the lower class of this country, the lower 40%, actually gets money from the government. Not a tax 'break'... but an actual tax paid for check.

Trump only gets a tax break. Which means he still pays tax.... just not as much.

So if you want to make the claim that getting a tax break is bad, and "getting something for nothing", and that tax breaks 'cost the tax payer'...

Then by your own standard, the absolute worst people in the country are the the entire lower 50% of wage earners.

By YOUR STANDARD... that is what you are saying.

But of course your entire premise is wrong to begin with.
Trump didn't get something for nothing. He lost money in taxes, not gained... he just didn't lose as much.

And moreover, his tax breaks didn't "cost" the tax payers anything. If he had not been giving the tax break, the hotels would not have been built at all. If they had not been built at all, he would have paid zero tax, which is less than tax minus a break.

Moreover, the hotel itself generate income tax from the people working there... .sales taxes from the people staying there, and tourism or business taxes from the activities of the people who come to New York city because there is now a hotel for them to stay at.

By any conceivable measure, Trumps activities gained far more revenue in taxes, than was possibly "lost" by a tax break.

Similarly, if Trump had not gotten a tax break for low income housing, he most likely would not have built the low income housing, and low income people would not have had houses to live in, and no one would have been employed to build or maintain the low income housing, and no one would have lived there generating income taxes from a New York residence. Especially when New York has a chronic shortage of low income housing.

So your entire premise is completely false, even before I pointed out that by your logic, the lower 50% of people in the country are worse, and "cost" the tax payer more than Trump ever has.

 

[Andylusion]

You want to be paid 14 dollars an hour for not working

That is NOT a work ethic

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

Really? Prove that.

Moreover, everyone will take something for nothing. If you are stupid enough to pay me to sit at home, I'll take your money. Who wouldn't?

As I've said many times, my problem isn't with people taking welfare. I don't sit here and say "I can't believe people are taking welfare and food stamps!".... I don't say that.

I say... "I can't believe we are stupid enough to give everyone food stamps and welfare".

People adapt to the incentives you give them. If you give something for nothing, they'll take something for nothing. It's YOUR fault for being that dumb. Not their fault for taking advantage of your incompetence.

Again, I pointed out that the Native Americans are the absolute most subsidized group in the US today. And they have the lowest income, and wealth in the entire country.

Why? Because they sit there, do nothing, and collect handouts.

The native American tribe not recognized by the government, which collects no handouts, lives an American standard of living.

Same was true in Japan with the Zombie Firms. These dead firms with zero chance of being profitable, but collecting government bailouts to keep them open. They had no reason to move on to profitable adventures, because they were being paid to do nothing. The result was stagnation for the entire country.

Was it the firms fault for taking the money? No. Why wouldn't they? Everyone is going to take what they can get. It's human nature.

It's your fault for subsidizing stupidity.

So when you say Trump is taking money.... (assuming it's true), why wouldn't he? It's your fault for giving out the money.

End all those government grants. End the subsidies. I don't see right-wing people demanding more government handouts. I don't see Right-wingers demanding more hand outs.

You show me the conservative on this forum, promoting more government grants to business? Where's that thread?

When you complain about "so and so gets government handouts!"..... the only person you can blame is yourself and other left-wingers like you. Not us. We don't push that ideology. We want less government spending, and less taxes, and less handouts.

It's nice that you bring up the Native Americans. They have been given "subsidies" often as a way of keeping them down. They have suffered massively at the hands of the US govt and the people in general couldn't give a damn.

But yes, I agree with you that subsidies used wrongly have a negative impact. You're not really telling me anything I don't agree with. My personal view is that workers should not get money unless they've worked for 5 years. Kids who are struggling before this would get money if they went back into some kind of education AND achieved certain goals. This education could be things like job training.

The question is why govt is so messed up. I mean, if you own a business with many shops and you hire a manager for one of the shops and he does bad things, why do you keep him? But when it comes to elections the people are electing people who don't have the interests of the people at heart, they're messing up the system. Why does this happen? It happens because voters don't have a clue, don't educate themselves. People come in this forum and talk absolute crap all the time. One guy said he was a Nationalist. I told him to ignore -isms and -ists and just go and find out information and debate it. His response "I'm a Nationalist", basically he had no interest in finding out the truth, he just wanted to promote his "view" of the world. How many people are like this? Too many.

My answer would be that inherently government is about getting elected. Especially since people on the left-wing, hate people who are in business.

See if Trump had lost... it wouldn't mean much. He'd go back to being a multi-Billionaire business owner.

But when Hillary lost, it was crushing for her, even according to her own words. Al Gore it was crushing, according to his own words.

Why? Because they don't have anything else. So to a career politicians, they will do whatever they have to, to stay in power. It's all about doing whatever gets votes.

Well... welfare gets votes. Politicians know that "give me give me give me" is the way to gain a following. Bernie Sanders was all about free education. (which is a terrible idea), but great for getting a bunch of moron college kids to cheer him on.

But "let's cut welfare and encourage people to work", doesn't sell.

Of course people don't have a clue. That's Democracy. Rule of the ignorant. The more people you give the right to vote, the more politicians will play them like a fiddle.

You really think my lady co-worker with 3-kids, and watches TV all day after work, is going to sit down, pull out a history book, and start reading on the history of the Minimum wage? Or how health care really works in Cuba? Of course not. A: She hates political talk. B: She doesn't have the time with 3 kids. C: CSI is far more entertaining.

So when someone stands up and says "free everything!" That sounds pretty good! "Welfare for Native Americans!" That makes her feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Welcome to Democracy dude. That's how it works.

 

[frigidweirdo]

it is a low rate, to ensure Capital works, not fools or horses. full employment of capital resources does not require a work ethic from the Age of Iron. Only the morally challenged, right wing, never gets it.

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

Really? Prove that.

Prove it? Okay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/nyregion/donald-trump-tax-breaks-real-estate.html?_r=0

"
A Trump Empire Built on Inside Connections and $885 Million in Tax Breaks"


Donald Trump: Developer has thrived with government's generosity

"From his first high-profile project in New York City in the 1970s to his recent campaigns to reduce taxes on property he owns around the country, Trump has displayed a consistent pattern. He courted public officials, sought their backing for government tax breaks under extraordinarily beneficial terms and fought any resistance to deals he negotiated."

"Karen Burstein, a former auditor general of New York City, reviewed a major Trump project in the 1980s and concluded he had "cheated" the city out of nearly $2.9 million. Decades later, Burstein said she was still appalled at the way Trump operated."

"Referring to how he managed to win a 40-year tax abatement for rebuilding a crumbling hotel at Grand Central Station — a deal that in the first decade cost taxpayers $60 million"

"Trump also sought access to a federal program that would have guaranteed a $356-million low-interest loan in exchange for designating a percentage of the units for lower-income families."

"He eventually settled for a $34-million reduction, which local officials said cost millions in improperly reduced tax revenue."

"In Las Vegas, Trump's goal was to lower the taxable value of the recently constructed Trump International Hotel and Tower. His team, which included the former chairman of the county Board of Equalization — the agency that decides tax matters — won a reduction last year in the taxable value from $180 million to $8.6 million."

Donald Trump Has Mastered the Art of the Tax Break

"
The exemption, valued at $163.775 million in total on commercial property taxes, began in 2004 and ends in 2016."

First answer this question....

Do you believe that the entire population of the country, and weighted heavily towards the lower 50% of the country, is getting something for nothing? Is costing the tax payers hundreds of billions? And is that wrong?

Because everyone is getting tax deductions, just like Trump. Moreover, unlike Trump, the lower half of the country pays almost no income tax at all. Zero.

So is that wrong? Because that's what your article points to.

See unlike Trump, the lower class of this country, the lower 40%, actually gets money from the government. Not a tax 'break'... but an actual tax paid for check.

Trump only gets a tax break. Which means he still pays tax.... just not as much.

So if you want to make the claim that getting a tax break is bad, and "getting something for nothing", and that tax breaks 'cost the tax payer'...

Then by your own standard, the absolute worst people in the country are the the entire lower 50% of wage earners.

By YOUR STANDARD... that is what you are saying.

But of course your entire premise is wrong to begin with.
Trump didn't get something for nothing. He lost money in taxes, not gained... he just didn't lose as much.

And moreover, his tax breaks didn't "cost" the tax payers anything. If he had not been giving the tax break, the hotels would not have been built at all. If they had not been built at all, he would have paid zero tax, which is less than tax minus a break.

Moreover, the hotel itself generate income tax from the people working there... .sales taxes from the people staying there, and tourism or business taxes from the activities of the people who come to New York city because there is now a hotel for them to stay at.

By any conceivable measure, Trumps activities gained far more revenue in taxes, than was possibly "lost" by a tax break.

Similarly, if Trump had not gotten a tax break for low income housing, he most likely would not have built the low income housing, and low income people would not have had houses to live in, and no one would have been employed to build or maintain the low income housing, and no one would have lived there generating income taxes from a New York residence. Especially when New York has a chronic shortage of low income housing.

So your entire premise is completely false, even before I pointed out that by your logic, the lower 50% of people in the country are worse, and "cost" the tax payer more than Trump ever has.

A lot of people get tax money off, which seems a little ridiculous. It seems to be designed to make money for lawyers.

So the hotels wouldn't have been built. If there were the demand for those hotels, they'd have been built, right? But no, he builds a hotel that wasn't necessary. Isn't it the right that wants govt to stay out of business? I mean, I'm probably closer to most conservatives than liberals on such issues.

 

[Media_Truth]

The Oligarchs who control FOX News want to hold the minimum wage low. That way they can inflate welfare statistics, and blame it on the "Entitlement Party". They like to claim that almost 50% of Americans are on welfare. Disabled Vets make up 15%, so we're left with 35%. Of that most are Food Stamp recipients. To qualify for Food Stamps, an individual has to have an income below $20-22K, depending on state. Full time minimum wage earners make about $14K - thus the income gap. Again, this is exactly the way that the Oligarchs want it.

 

[Andylusion]

No one with a strong work ethic wants to be paid for not working

I for one would pick up dog shit for 10 cents a pile before I went on welfare. You on the other hand would say you "deserve" 30K a year for doing nothing

Then again people like Trump will take something for nothing, how much has he taken for free? Something close to $1 billion.

Really? Prove that.

Prove it? Okay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/nyregion/donald-trump-tax-breaks-real-estate.html?_r=0

"
A Trump Empire Built on Inside Connections and $885 Million in Tax Breaks"


Donald Trump: Developer has thrived with government's generosity

"From his first high-profile project in New York City in the 1970s to his recent campaigns to reduce taxes on property he owns around the country, Trump has displayed a consistent pattern. He courted public officials, sought their backing for government tax breaks under extraordinarily beneficial terms and fought any resistance to deals he negotiated."

"Karen Burstein, a former auditor general of New York City, reviewed a major Trump project in the 1980s and concluded he had "cheated" the city out of nearly $2.9 million. Decades later, Burstein said she was still appalled at the way Trump operated."

"Referring to how he managed to win a 40-year tax abatement for rebuilding a crumbling hotel at Grand Central Station — a deal that in the first decade cost taxpayers $60 million"

"Trump also sought access to a federal program that would have guaranteed a $356-million low-interest loan in exchange for designating a percentage of the units for lower-income families."

"He eventually settled for a $34-million reduction, which local officials said cost millions in improperly reduced tax revenue."

"In Las Vegas, Trump's goal was to lower the taxable value of the recently constructed Trump International Hotel and Tower. His team, which included the former chairman of the county Board of Equalization — the agency that decides tax matters — won a reduction last year in the taxable value from $180 million to $8.6 million."

Donald Trump Has Mastered the Art of the Tax Break

"
The exemption, valued at $163.775 million in total on commercial property taxes, began in 2004 and ends in 2016."

First answer this question....

Do you believe that the entire population of the country, and weighted heavily towards the lower 50% of the country, is getting something for nothing? Is costing the tax payers hundreds of billions? And is that wrong?

Because everyone is getting tax deductions, just like Trump. Moreover, unlike Trump, the lower half of the country pays almost no income tax at all. Zero.

So is that wrong? Because that's what your article points to.

See unlike Trump, the lower class of this country, the lower 40%, actually gets money from the government. Not a tax 'break'... but an actual tax paid for check.

Trump only gets a tax break. Which means he still pays tax.... just not as much.

So if you want to make the claim that getting a tax break is bad, and "getting something for nothing", and that tax breaks 'cost the tax payer'...

Then by your own standard, the absolute worst people in the country are the the entire lower 50% of wage earners.

By YOUR STANDARD... that is what you are saying.

But of course your entire premise is wrong to begin with.
Trump didn't get something for nothing. He lost money in taxes, not gained... he just didn't lose as much.

And moreover, his tax breaks didn't "cost" the tax payers anything. If he had not been giving the tax break, the hotels would not have been built at all. If they had not been built at all, he would have paid zero tax, which is less than tax minus a break.

Moreover, the hotel itself generate income tax from the people working there... .sales taxes from the people staying there, and tourism or business taxes from the activities of the people who come to New York city because there is now a hotel for them to stay at.

By any conceivable measure, Trumps activities gained far more revenue in taxes, than was possibly "lost" by a tax break.

Similarly, if Trump had not gotten a tax break for low income housing, he most likely would not have built the low income housing, and low income people would not have had houses to live in, and no one would have been employed to build or maintain the low income housing, and no one would have lived there generating income taxes from a New York residence. Especially when New York has a chronic shortage of low income housing.

So your entire premise is completely false, even before I pointed out that by your logic, the lower 50% of people in the country are worse, and "cost" the tax payer more than Trump ever has.

A lot of people get tax money off, which seems a little ridiculous. It seems to be designed to make money for lawyers.

So the hotels wouldn't have been built. If there were the demand for those hotels, they'd have been built, right? But no, he builds a hotel that wasn't necessary. Isn't it the right that wants govt to stay out of business? I mean, I'm probably closer to most conservatives than liberals on such issues.

No. Demand is only one component. Demand, doesn't magically create supply. Never has.

Take China for the 50 years before the capitalist reforms. Was there no demand for food? No demand for housing? No demand for stuff, or jobs, or cars, or everything else?

Of course there was. Why didn't it happen? Because no one could profit from it.

When you make something unprofitable to do, it doesn't matter how much demand you have.

Take the oil production in Venezuela. Once the Venezuela government nationalized the oil companies, there was no longer any profit into investing in oil wells. Thus oil production has been falling all these years while oil production in the US has been vastly increasing. And Venezuela has more oil reserves, than any other country on the planet.

So, no, the answer to your question is no. All business is only built if it is profitable to do it. Doesn't matter how much demand there is for the service, if the cost of doing business, which taxes in New York are a large part of, is too high to be profitable, then the will not be built.

If you need more proof, just look at the housing shortage in New York.

Severe Shortage of NYC Affordable Housing Creates 1,000 to 1 Odds For Applicants

2.5 Million people applied to get these micro homes.

What you are looking at, is the entire home.. That's it. That couch folds out to a bed. Everything you need in one "micro-house".

Why do they have such shortages, and at the same time.......

Abandoned apartment buildings.

Why is this? How is it that they have a massive housing shortage, where people are buying "micro-homes", and yet have completely abandoned apartment buildings, left vacant in the middle of New York city?

Real simple. They have rent control. The rent control makes providing the apartments unprofitable. Because it's unprofitable, all the demand of literally MILLIONS of people, is irrelevant. The owners ditch the property, and it is left empty, in a city of millions of people completely desperate for homes.

So you say, well if that's true, then who built those micro-homes? Read the article.... the builders are getting subsidized by the government. If they hadn't been subsidized... they wouldn't have built those homes.

Same with Trump and the Hotel. No tax breaks, making it profitable to build the hotel? The hotel would not have been built.