Military Planners Conclude the Gerald R. Ford And Its Fleet Could Be Destroyed ‘With Certainty’

[AZrailwhale]

Towed barges could provide cheap and plentiful landing sites.

For Harriers, Yak 38s and F-35Bs (maybe). Both the Yaks and Harriers are obsolete and out of service.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Towed barges could provide cheap and plentiful landing sites.

Wrong.

You couldn't make a barge that is long enough and structurally sound enough to act as a landing strip that doesn't require arresting gear. Why? Because there are some funny looking things out in the ocean called "waves". Something long enough to act as a landing strip without arresting gear would be prohibitively expensive, as well as it would take some serious engineering to make it strong enough to withstand the ocean's movement. Not to mention, something that big would be extremely difficult to tow anywhere, defeating the purpose.

Same thing with building a barge that has arresting gear to land aircraft on. Have you ever seen (as well as heard) a fighter jet when it hits the arresting gear on a carrier? I slept in berthing that was just below the flight deck, and it was FREAKING LOUD whenever jets landed. First time I heard it, I was wondering what just exploded. Some of the older hands in the squadron said it was just jets catching the landing wires on the flight deck, and I'd eventually get used to it. Strangely enough, I did after a couple of months. Even with arresting cables and all the gear needed, you would still need a pretty freaking huge barge with a lot of reinforcement to take the stresses of landing. And something that size would again be too large and expensive to tow.

Your towed barge solution is a non-starter.

 

[Mushroom]

Towed barges could provide cheap and plentiful landing sites.

The funny thing is, the Royal Navy tried that about 4 decades ago. Did not work out very well.

 

[Mushroom]

For Harriers, Yak 38s and F-35Bs (maybe). Both the Yaks and Harriers are obsolete and out of service.

Actually, the Harrier (at least the AV8B variant) is still in service. But it is on the way out, being replaced by the F-35B.

In the US, only 2 Marine Corps Air Wings still use it, and both are scheduled to transition to the F-35B within 5 years. After that, the only units that will retain the Harrier are those that belong to Naval Aviation test and evaluation squadrons. And that will likely remain until the last of the Harriers in inventory have been scraped (which may be a while because they could potentially be sold to foreign nations).

 

[Mushroom]

You couldn't make a barge that is long enough and structurally sound enough to act as a landing strip that doesn't require arresting gear.

Well, they can always make it out of ice instead.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Well, they can always make it out of ice instead.

Those weren’t barges, they were ships. Barges have been used as helo bases.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well, they can always make it out of ice instead.

Limited use, as well as limited deployment ability. And, the maintenance to make sure the ice would remain strong enough to land things on would be a nightmare.

Then...................there's the traction issue.

 

[Mushroom]

Limited use, as well as limited deployment ability. And, the maintenance to make sure the ice would remain strong enough to land things on would be a nightmare.

Then...................there's the traction issue.

You never heard of Pykrete?

 

[themirrorthief]

You never heard of Pykrete?

thank goodness the chinese have the big guy and his son hunter on the payroll

 

[Mushroom]

thank goodness the chinese have the big guy and his son hunter on the payroll

Want to discuss the topic, fine.

Want to go on about politics, I could not care less.

 

[there4eyeM]

Small, cheap, dispersed in space, concentrated in time, remote controlled are the key elements in modern conflicts. Tanks and aircraft carriers are great examples of erroneous thinking today.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You never heard of Pykrete?

Yeah, I have heard of it. And there are reasons why it's not used. It was an idea that they thought would work, but upon further testing, it was determined that it wasn't feasible.

 

[Vrenn]

Each Ohio SSBN carries 20 Trident missiles. Even without MIRV warheads, that's twenty Chinese targets vaporized times 14 subs or 280 Chinese targets vaporized. That's just the ballistic missiles, then add in the 4 Ohio SSGNs carrying a total of 316 TLAMs with conventional warheads and thing look grim for China. That's not even counting the B-52s, B-1As and B-2s all of which can carry land attack missiles and launch them from far outside the range of Chinese fighters or even detection by Chinese systems. China would face literally thousands of incoming missiles coming from different directions and aimed at different targets.

First of all, the B-1A was never put into production. That thing carried the same motors as the F-15 including the AB with a top speed of over Mach 2. It was cancelled. Instead, the B-1B was a tamed down version using the TF101 instead of the PW-100 engine with a Top Speed of Mach 1.25. While the TF101 had more power than the PW-100 the B-1 got a lot fatter and it's bomb load went way up.

Now, let's talk about the DF-26 nicknamed the Carrier Killer. It's not a hyper speed weapon at all. In fact, it's subsonic. But it's a big honkin Missile capable of throwing both conventional and nuclear weapons up to 3100 miles. While it's been in testing and is currently pointed (maybe) anywhere in Asia and parts of Russia, as well as Guam, it can't hit ships that are moving. The Chinese haven't tested it on ships as of yet. A Ship is damned hard to hit when you have to guide it all the way in using external guidance. And it's been already proven that the Patriots in Gaum as well as the SMs on the Ships will probably stop it cold anyway.

You could be talking about the DF17 which is a hypersonic missile. But the range is very short. Before you can launch it, your ship will be post toasties. And you Bomber will be a fireball in the sky. The Russians are losing high dollar Hypersonic Missiles to the Phoenix system. You see, once they are launched to get up to speed, they can't manuever at all. You don't need a hypersonic defensive weapon to defend against them. You only need to put something in their path and let them fly into it.

I don't see Carriers to be threated by anything long ranged (DF26) or the Hypersonic Missiles (DF17) anytime soon.

 

[Vrenn]

Due to the decreased defensive perimeters of the USN - e.g. by the deployment/replacement with F-35's - the reaction time of a USN task force detetcting a hypersonic missile at a range of a 100mls is less then 1 minute. The effective carrier air cover extends only to around 350mls. - whilst a hypersonic missile has a range of 1400mls and more. Due to the speed of hyper-sonic warheads the air pressure in front of the weapon forms a plasma cloud as it moves, absorbing radio waves and making it practically invisible to active radar systems. That also includes new "experimental defense systems" such as the USN 150kw lasers.

U.S. Aegis missile interceptor systems require 8-10 seconds of reaction time to intercept incoming attacks. In those 8-10 seconds, the e.g. Zircon missiles will already have traveled 20 kilometers, and the interceptor missiles do not fly fast enough to catch up. And Russian technology and especially factual deployment of hyper-sonic weapons is more or less zero compared with China.

When dealing with Ships, they carry the Standard Missiles like the SM-2, SM-3 and the SM-6. A Carrier Group will throw up almost a solid wall your missiles and AC have to fly through. And any incoming missiles, you don't have to catch up to, you just have to get in it's way. The SM-6 is over the horizon and it's fast. No it's not Hypersonic but it doesn't have to be to defend.

The "supposedly" intercepted Russian hyper-sonic missile near Kiev; no one here on this forum would have the slightest idea as to what actually really happened. Did the missile dismantle itself to to fatigue? at what range was the carrier aircraft detected, did the missile develop engine issues? aka at what speed was it supposedly traveling and intercepted, etc ?

The last time I heard, the Pheonix hit 5 out of 6 of those WunderWeapons. They were fired from the only Fighter capable of carrying them in the Russian Inventory and that is the Mig-31. It fires them outside the range of the Russian Mig-29 Fighters radar. But you have to understand, the F-15EX has even better radar and can hit with the new Aim-260 missile well beyond the Mig-31s capability. The F-35 also has longer ranged radar and guidance. Again, you only need to put something in it's path to defeat it.

The most obvious issue/factor in regards to hyper-sonic missiles is that only the USA is playing them down - simply due to the fact that the USA, (due to an errant weapons development policy) is 4-5 years behind e.g. China, and presently up to 8-10 years behind in the deployment of hyper-sonic missiles compared to China.

The US isn't playing them down. Russia and China are playing them up. Why fire an expensive hypersonic missile when you can fire an ABM instead.

Presently despite of the tensions, the USA and China are at peace - once the USA would start to bring in added assets (AZrailwhale, in order to fire thousands of missiles) China will have no other choice then to strike first at a hopelessly outgunned USN and it's bases in and around the South-China-Sea.

Good luck with that. Ever wonder why the Chinese are very reluctant to attack Taiwan?

It's the USA that is looking for trouble in front of China's doorsteps - and not the PLAN roaming around the Caribbean and in front of the California or Hawaiian coast, or the PLA setting up military bases 100-300mls next to the USA. The USA already starts to get frantic about China enhancing it's embassy complex on Cuba.

China is claiming territory from Vietnam, Japan, The Philippines and many other countries. And what is stopping them? At least 3 US Carrier Groups and a bunch of Attack USN Subs.

 

[Kruska]

The last time I heard, the Pheonix hit 5 out of 6 of those WunderWeapons. They were fired from the only Fighter capable of carrying them in the Russian Inventory and that is the Mig-31. It fires them outside the range of the Russian Mig-29 Fighters radar. But you have to understand, the F-15EX has even better radar and can hit with the new Aim-260 missile well beyond the Mig-31s capability. The F-35 also has longer ranged radar and guidance. Again, you only need to put something in it's path to defeat it.

I don't really care about what Russia claims in regards to hyper-sonic weapons.

The F-15EX isn't a carrier aircraft. And e.g. China doesn't need to fly it's aircraft into the defense perimeter of a USN task force (doesn't exclude a "hothead" PLAF pilot from trying)
Due to China's coastal defense setup - including strategic installations in the South China Sea - a USN carrier force wouldn't even be able to come within 800mls of China's coast line and territorial waters in the event of a war. And in the case of a war - I have no reasons to belief that any of those "US allies" would want to be dragged into such a conflict (aside maybe, just maybe Australia).

The US isn't playing them down.

Off course they are - simply because they overslept their own development and deployment

Good luck with that. Ever wonder why the Chinese are very reluctant to attack Taiwan?

Why would China want to attack and kill it's own people?, If the USA however keeps inciting the situation right down to encouraging the present Taiwan administration to declare independence - they will, because then it would be to safeguard the interests or 1.4 billion people towards 21 million. And that is 21 million people the USA obviously couldn't be bothered about - despite the pathetic US propaganda of acting in the interest of democracy.

China is claiming territory from Vietnam, Japan, The Philippines and many other countries. And what is stopping them? At least 3 US Carrier Groups and a bunch of Attack USN Subs.

Taiwan is claiming the exact same territories - Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and the Philippines are also claiming the same territories amongst each other.
Japan and South Korea are also claiming amongst each other - so according to you China can't claim as well? And the USN isn't stopping any of this - but playing world-police as usual despite the fact that the US isn't even a signatory towards UNCLOS.

The US has numerous territorial sea disputes with it's neighbors - so should the PLAN conduct free right of passage - missions, next to the US shoreline? If the US keeps up its unwanted and unasked for meddling in the SCS - (show me a single country along the SCS that officially requested US naval assistance aside from bilateral and multilateral exercises and Military aid $$$), I am dead sure that the PLAN will do exactly that (increasingly) in the next 5-15 years time.

As for aggressive behavior - maybe you should also read information from the other side? off course to you it's all lies - since it is reported from China.

US military activities in S. China Sea in 2020 unprecedented - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

 

[Mushroom]

Due to China's coastal defense setup - including strategic installations in the South China Sea - a USN carrier force wouldn't even be able to come within 800mls of China's coast line and territorial waters in the event of a war.

That is in no way true. Unless China is willing to try an nuke the carrier group.

You do not seem to understand how difficult it is to target ships at sea. In reality, anything beyond about 40 miles from the coast is largely invisible to anywhere on the shore.

 

[Vrenn]

I don't really care about what Russia claims in regards to hyper-sonic weapons.

I don't either. As for hypersonic weapons, it's mostly all lies or military Propaganda which is the same thing. I watched you and others like you spreading the "Dictators" wishes tell us all about how dangerous the DF-26 is. Turns out, an ABM is a much older technology and actually works.

The F-15EX isn't a carrier aircraft.

The USAF has something that the Chinese and Russians don't have and that is hundreds of Inflight Refueling Aircraft. That means, in a full blown conflict, the F-22, F-15 and even the F-16 will be in that conflict.

And e.g. China doesn't need to fly it's aircraft into the defense perimeter of a USN task force (doesn't exclude a "hothead" PLAF pilot from trying)

Translation, the Carrier Force (not just a single ship) are extremely dangerous and getting within launch range means you not only lost your missile but your Aircraft as well.

Due to China's coastal defense setup - including strategic installations in the South China Sea - a USN carrier force wouldn't even be able to come within 800mls of China's coast line and territorial waters in the event of a war. And in the case of a war - I have no reasons to belief that any of those "US allies" would want to be dragged into such a conflict (aside maybe, just maybe Australia).

800 miles? Not problem. The Navy has some very serious refueling capability. That means, it's going to be carrier type aircraft which the US has the best out there called the Super Hornet. Under Ideal Conditions, there are better but when the fight starts, all fights end up on the deck where the F-18E rules.

Off course they are - simply because they overslept their own development and deployment

Let's play with that. The US doesn't put all the money into one type of weapon system because there are better alternatives already in place or on the way. ABMs do the same job on stationary targets and already are in place. And hitting a carrier is much, much harder. You fired your weapon. 20 minutes later you hit where the Carrier Group was. Your kill area will be less than 200 meters. You just missed by a few miles. Once something goes hypersonic, you just lost the ability to guide it.

Why would China want to attack and kill it's own people?, If the USA however keeps inciting the situation right down to encouraging the present Taiwan administration to declare independence - they will, because then it would be to safeguard the interests or 1.4 billion people towards 21 million. And that is 21 million people the USA obviously couldn't be bothered about - despite the pathetic US propaganda of acting in the interest of democracy.

Funny, this has been a sore spot for China since 1949. The Civil War never ended. No matter how you paint your false narrative, WE understand that, if it weren't for the US, Taiwan AND South Korea would fall very quickly to those you claim are so peaceful.

Taiwan is claiming the exact same territories - Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and the Philippines are also claiming the same territories amongst each other.
Japan and South Korea are also claiming amongst each other - so according to you China can't claim as well? And the USN isn't stopping any of this - but playing world-police as usual despite the fact that the US isn't even a signatory towards UNCLOS.

Really now. That Carrier Group just off your shores doesn't do a thing to affect your actions? Why when one of those are in range does the Chinese start behaving itself. China attempts to use their Military to determine the policies and you don't like it when the US comes in and gives them the middle finger.

The US has numerous territorial sea disputes with it's neighbors - so should the PLAN conduct free right of passage - missions, next to the US shoreline? If the US keeps up its unwanted and unasked for meddling in the SCS - (show me a single country along the SCS that officially requested US naval assistance aside from bilateral and multilateral exercises and Military aid $$$), I am dead sure that the PLAN will do exactly that (increasingly) in the next 5-15 years time.

The only thing that has changed is the bullying by the Chinese Military of it's neighbors because they feel they are strong enough to pull it off. But they aren't and they know it.

As for aggressive behavior - maybe you should also read information from the other side? off course to you it's all lies - since it is reported from China.

US military activities in S. China Sea in 2020 unprecedented - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

Okay, I looked at it. Sounds to me like the USN is doing a fine job and the Chinese are crying in their beer.

 

[AZrailwhale]

First of all, the B-1A was never put into production. That thing carried the same motors as the F-15 including the AB with a top speed of over Mach 2. It was cancelled. Instead, the B-1B was a tamed down version using the TF101 instead of the PW-100 engine with a Top Speed of Mach 1.25. While the TF101 had more power than the PW-100 the B-1 got a lot fatter and it's bomb load went way up.

Now, let's talk about the DF-26 nicknamed the Carrier Killer. It's not a hyper speed weapon at all. In fact, it's subsonic. But it's a big honkin Missile capable of throwing both conventional and nuclear weapons up to 3100 miles. While it's been in testing and is currently pointed (maybe) anywhere in Asia and parts of Russia, as well as Guam, it can't hit ships that are moving. The Chinese haven't tested it on ships as of yet. A Ship is damned hard to hit when you have to guide it all the way in using external guidance. And it's been already proven that the Patriots in Gaum as well as the SMs on the Ships will probably stop it cold anyway.

You could be talking about the DF17 which is a hypersonic missile. But the range is very short. Before you can launch it, your ship will be post toasties. And you Bomber will be a fireball in the sky. The Russians are losing high dollar Hypersonic Missiles to the Phoenix system. You see, once they are launched to get up to speed, they can't manuever at all. You don't need a hypersonic defensive weapon to defend against them. You only need to put something in their path and let them fly into it.

I don't see Carriers to be threated by anything long ranged (DF26) or the Hypersonic Missiles (DF17) anytime soon.

Yeah I screwed up on the B-1A. It happens when you get elderly.