military meme

[ESay]

Tis cool, was not an attack at all but a supposition.

One thing I have realized, is that an amazing amount of "history" has in many ways been lost. I was even amazed as I spent some time trying to find videos of the vandalism and pure chaos of the protests in 1991 and 2003 in California. A great many I clearly remember as I was there at the time. And I found... damned near nothing. In 2003 before I left LA there were times I could not even get to work, as they would completely shut down multiple freeways across the city. But in trying to find videos of that, nothing.

Notice I pointed to an article that happening in 1991 and the vandalism at the Federal Building. But in trying to find a video of any of those, nothing. The period from the 1980s to around 2010 can be really interesting. A hell of a lot of that was actually covered in newscasts, but is now largely unknown as that footage seems to be "lost". Like the 1991 case where a Marine Recruiter in California reported he was shot at in his vehicle. Turns out after an investigation they discovered that had not happened (and I want to say a rock broke the window). But that was huge news at the time, and put all of us seriously on edge. But in trying to find a reference to that, came up with absolutely nothing (it might be lurking in pay access sites, which I do not use as references).

In many ways, it is kinda like trying to explain the tension and almost fear that enveloped much of the country and even pop culture during the Cold War. For those that grew up after 1992, it is almost impossible to understand how we all just accepted that civilization as we knew it was quite literally a push of a button away from ending. And something many are freaking out about now that it has returned.

Myself and most my age I know, we just shrug and smile at each other. As such fears had been around for decades before we were born, and it was all we knew until we were well into adulthood. And that quite literally growing up with nuclear armed missiles around three miles from my house was actually "normal".



The video above shows the RADAR and fire control station for LA-96, a NIKE site that was active from 1957-1974. But it does not show the actual launch site, inside Van Nuys.

Nike Missile LA-96 Launch Battery Site Los Angeles Defense Area California

www.themilitarystandard.com

I remember riding my bike there as a kid, and being amazed as sometimes I caught the missiles raised up out of the ground and the soldiers working on them.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

On this map on the top-right side where Woodley and Victory meet, that is where the missiles were. I lived right by where White Oak and Balboa meet on the bottom-left corner. Most younger than 50 can barely believe that there were nuclear missiles right in the heart of a largely residential area. But to those my age and older, it was simply how things were back then.

And for anybody curious, when the anti-missile treaty was signed, the US was allowed to keep two sites intact for museums. One of them is literally in Sandy Hook, New Jersey (NY-56). The other one is literally across the Golden Gate Bridge a couple of miles from San Francisco (SF-88). Both are public museums now open to all. And about 15 years ago, less than a mile from where I lived in Fairfield, CA was T-86. There were around 265 of them scattered around the US, the vast majority having nuclear missiles on the pad.

I don't get why those people were so crazy about the 1991 war. Wasn't the first Gulf War considered as a just cause? I somewhat understand the stance concerning the Iraq war in 2003, though.

Fearing that the Soviet Union may be involved in one way or another? It was 1991, and it barely could do anything. I saw a documentary a while ago about that and it was said that Soviet bureaucrats were impressed by this military operation. Even one of the main Soviet newspapers (maybe Izvestia, I don't remember properly) issued an article called 'That is how professionals fight'.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Tis cool, was not an attack at all but a supposition.

One thing I have realized, is that an amazing amount of "history" has in many ways been lost. I was even amazed as I spent some time trying to find videos of the vandalism and pure chaos of the protests in 1991 and 2003 in California. A great many I clearly remember as I was there at the time. And I found... damned near nothing. In 2003 before I left LA there were times I could not even get to work, as they would completely shut down multiple freeways across the city. But in trying to find videos of that, nothing.

Notice I pointed to an article that happening in 1991 and the vandalism at the Federal Building. But in trying to find a video of any of those, nothing. The period from the 1980s to around 2010 can be really interesting. A hell of a lot of that was actually covered in newscasts, but is now largely unknown as that footage seems to be "lost". Like the 1991 case where a Marine Recruiter in California reported he was shot at in his vehicle. Turns out after an investigation they discovered that had not happened (and I want to say a rock broke the window). But that was huge news at the time, and put all of us seriously on edge. But in trying to find a reference to that, came up with absolutely nothing (it might be lurking in pay access sites, which I do not use as references).

In many ways, it is kinda like trying to explain the tension and almost fear that enveloped much of the country and even pop culture during the Cold War. For those that grew up after 1992, it is almost impossible to understand how we all just accepted that civilization as we knew it was quite literally a push of a button away from ending. And something many are freaking out about now that it has returned.

Myself and most my age I know, we just shrug and smile at each other. As such fears had been around for decades before we were born, and it was all we knew until we were well into adulthood. And that quite literally growing up with nuclear armed missiles around three miles from my house was actually "normal".



The video above shows the RADAR and fire control station for LA-96, a NIKE site that was active from 1957-1974. But it does not show the actual launch site, inside Van Nuys.

Nike Missile LA-96 Launch Battery Site Los Angeles Defense Area California

www.themilitarystandard.com

I remember riding my bike there as a kid, and being amazed as sometimes I caught the missiles raised up out of the ground and the soldiers working on them.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

On this map on the top-right side where Woodley and Victory meet, that is where the missiles were. I lived right by where White Oak and Balboa meet on the bottom-left corner. Most younger than 50 can barely believe that there were nuclear missiles right in the heart of a largely residential area. But to those my age and older, it was simply how things were back then.

And for anybody curious, when the anti-missile treaty was signed, the US was allowed to keep two sites intact for museums. One of them is literally in Sandy Hook, New Jersey (NY-56). The other one is literally across the Golden Gate Bridge a couple of miles from San Francisco (SF-88). Both are public museums now open to all. And about 15 years ago, less than a mile from where I lived in Fairfield, CA was T-86. There were around 265 of them scattered around the US, the vast majority having nuclear missiles on the pad.

There is another closed Nike-Hercules site at the top of De Soto Ave overlooking the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. I've been there; it's in a restricted, privately owned area that as a phone man I had a key to get into.

 

[Mushroom]

I don't get why those people were so crazy about the 1991 war. Wasn't the first Gulf War considered as a just cause? I somewhat understand the stance concerning the Iraq war in 2003, though.

In case you have not noticed, most of that is purely political in nature.

Ask yourself or others, how many protests like that were held during the Clinton, Obama, or Biden Administrations?

President Bush does a surge in Iraq and Afghanistan: mass protests and screams he is a murderer.
President Obama does a surge in Iraq and Afghanistan: crickets.

Damned near none. Oh, there were still protests of course, but not on those scales where they would block multiple freeways and cause a lot of destruction through vandalism. I came to realize a long time ago that it was all politically motivated, because those same individuals who are all over the news in one administration will be completely silent in the next if the President is of another party.

And to the political animals, "just cause" does not matter worth a damn. Nothing in the world is more important than their own personal politics. Nothing.

Then people wonder why I have such a disdain for politics. I find it absolutely disgusting, and would rather my granddaughters become prostitutes than politicians. Because those are the kinds of idiots that they would have to suck up to in order to get votes.

When politics is considered more important by some than actual human rights, then those people have largely lost any respect I might have. I myself have been in Kuwait, and they are still to this day very thankful for what we did for them over 3 decades ago. And I see the situation in Ukraine as the exact same thing. A larger nation attacking a smaller one and annexing their territory because they think they have the might to do so. To me, there is no politics involved.

Oh, and to be clear here, I see nothing different in 2003. You had a leadership that was literally starving their own people to death, as a way to try and gain sympathy. Making billions in illegal oil deals as they funneled off money that was supposed to go for food for the 'starving people" went into their own vaults. Hundreds of thousand of their own citizens executed and pitched into mass graves scattered throughout the country. And attacking minorities in their own nation with chemical weapons.

And none of these were any kinds of secrets at the time it was going on. It was openly known, many just preferred to play stupid political games and ignore what was happening. And what you are seeing in Syria right now with the collapse of the Ba'athist party is the exact same thing when the Ba'athist party collapsed in Iraq. The people assisting all they can, because they were tired of the slaughters and oppression. The mass graves and prisons being shown to the world now in Syria? Iraq was the exact same thing in 2003.

And I find it amazing, in that quite literally the various Ba'athist Parties were essentially Arab Fascist Parties. But instead of promoting "Pan-Germanic" or "Pan-Italian" philosophies, they were pushing "Pan-Arabic" philosophies. And if any groups were not Arabs (IE: Kurds), then you were free to slaughter them at will.

Hold up a mirror to NSDAP Germany and Ba'athist Iraq and Syria, replace "Jews" with "Kurds", and the image is the same.

The world knew when Iraq used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja Massacre in 1988. Between 3-5,000 Kurds were killed by Iraq with a cocktail composed mostly of Mustard (a blistering agent) and Sarin (a nerve agent) gas. It was no secret, shortly after it happened images of the massacre were in newspapers around the world.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/global-health/2024/06/12/TELEMMGLPICT000002497424_17181890939170_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqOjwtMIBfBvsmIG0UzgZgYNGmygSMXx0F6kNOzUL6Gw4.jpeg

And by 2003, we knew even more. Like how when Iraq captured Ali Al Salem Air Base in Kuwait, they lined up all of the officers in the mess hall and executed them (and hung the Commanding General of the Kuwait Air Force from the flagpole). Or after shooting the leader of the Kuwaiti Army (who was the younger brother of the Sheikh), they dragged his body in front of the Palace and ran over it with tanks. Or of the at that time over 600 Kuwaitis that were still missing from the 1991 war. All of this was known in 2003, but some decided it was not important at all.

Even though after the 2003 invasion and overthrow, over 300 of those missing Kuwaitis were found in mass graves in Iraq. But for 369 families, their fate is still unknown to this day.

The Mass Graves of al-Mahawil:

This report attempts to tell the story of the mass graves around al-Hilla. It identifies the victims, the circumstances of their arrest, and their ultimate execution and mass burial.

www.hrw.org

Then people wonder why the following quote is a mantra by which I try to live my life:

 

[Stryder50]

those were retaliation not protection,,

now if they did it before 911 you could have a point,,

More like counter-attacks to blunt future attacks from Islamic Jihadists in those countries

 

[Stryder50]

Before They Could Stab Us in the Back, They Removed Our Backbone

Better to remove the threats here, which have more power over us than the threats over there can ever hope to achieve.

Need to remove threats where ever they are. Many "threats here" come from and are supported by "over there".

 

[Mushroom]

More like counter-attacks to blunt future attacks from Islamic Jihadists in those countries

I think many were either not alive yet, or in a coma when President Clinton sent multiple cruise missile attacks against those camps all throughout his Presidency. It seemed like every 3-6 months there were more cruise missile strikes against terrorist camps in Afghanistan or Iraq.

And it was no secret that Saddam Hussain was allowing terrorists to operate at will in his country. Abu Nidal had been living there openly for years. Until shortly before the 2003 Invasion, when they realized his being found could be a liability. Which is why they claimed he committed suicide by shooting himself multiple times in the head.

And before around 1999, the prime location in that area of the terrorist camps was actually Libya. Gaddafi supported and allowed camps from a great many groups in his country, this was also known for years. But after Pan Am 103 was blown up in 1988 and tied to Libyan Terrorists, he started to distance himself from most of them because of the International outrage. Abu Nidal had been living and training there for years, but was expelled in 1999 where he was invited to move his organization to Iraq.

Abu Nidal is probably largely unknown today, but he was the most wanted terrorist of the time. He was part of the "Black September Organization" that committed the Munich Massacre in 1972 (but did not take part in that operation). He was mostly a scourge to other Islamists, often targeting the PLO or people in his own organization he thought were disloyal. But he and his organization were already known on the world stage.

The bombing of TWA 841 off Greece that killed all 79 on board in 1973, that was him. Attacks and assassinations of various ambassadors and embassies, his group. In particular, he killed a lot of the leadership of the PLO. Throwing had grenades at a Jewish summer camp in Belgium in 1980, his group again. Killing an Austrian politician in 1981, as well as attacking a Synagogue there the same year. But in total, well over 1,000 were killed between 1972 and 1998 in well over a hundred attacks by the Abu Nidal Organization (ANO). Probably the first "Superstar Terrorists", and in many ways a template for those that would follow him.

 

[beagle9]

Of course, that meme is a lie.
When was the last time our military went to war to protect us?

Everytime they go... The soldier's can't help if they are misled or misinformed by leader's who guide them with lies and deceit.

 

[ESay]

In case you have not noticed, most of that is purely political in nature.

Ask yourself or others, how many protests like that were held during the Clinton, Obama, or Biden Administrations?

President Bush does a surge in Iraq and Afghanistan: mass protests and screams he is a murderer.
President Obama does a surge in Iraq and Afghanistan: crickets.

Damned near none. Oh, there were still protests of course, but not on those scales where they would block multiple freeways and cause a lot of destruction through vandalism. I came to realize a long time ago that it was all politically motivated, because those same individuals who are all over the news in one administration will be completely silent in the next if the President is of another party.

And to the political animals, "just cause" does not matter worth a damn. Nothing in the world is more important than their own personal politics. Nothing.

Then people wonder why I have such a disdain for politics. I find it absolutely disgusting, and would rather my granddaughters become prostitutes than politicians. Because those are the kinds of idiots that they would have to suck up to in order to get votes.

When politics is considered more important by some than actual human rights, then those people have largely lost any respect I might have. I myself have been in Kuwait, and they are still to this day very thankful for what we did for them over 3 decades ago. And I see the situation in Ukraine as the exact same thing. A larger nation attacking a smaller one and annexing their territory because they think they have the might to do so. To me, there is no politics involved.

Oh, and to be clear here, I see nothing different in 2003. You had a leadership that was literally starving their own people to death, as a way to try and gain sympathy. Making billions in illegal oil deals as they funneled off money that was supposed to go for food for the 'starving people" went into their own vaults. Hundreds of thousand of their own citizens executed and pitched into mass graves scattered throughout the country. And attacking minorities in their own nation with chemical weapons.

And none of these were any kinds of secrets at the time it was going on. It was openly known, many just preferred to play stupid political games and ignore what was happening. And what you are seeing in Syria right now with the collapse of the Ba'athist party is the exact same thing when the Ba'athist party collapsed in Iraq. The people assisting all they can, because they were tired of the slaughters and oppression. The mass graves and prisons being shown to the world now in Syria? Iraq was the exact same thing in 2003.

And I find it amazing, in that quite literally the various Ba'athist Parties were essentially Arab Fascist Parties. But instead of promoting "Pan-Germanic" or "Pan-Italian" philosophies, they were pushing "Pan-Arabic" philosophies. And if any groups were not Arabs (IE: Kurds), then you were free to slaughter them at will.

Hold up a mirror to NSDAP Germany and Ba'athist Iraq and Syria, replace "Jews" with "Kurds", and the image is the same.

The world knew when Iraq used poison gas against the Kurds in the Halabja Massacre in 1988. Between 3-5,000 Kurds were killed by Iraq with a cocktail composed mostly of Mustard (a blistering agent) and Sarin (a nerve agent) gas. It was no secret, shortly after it happened images of the massacre were in newspapers around the world.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/global-health/2024/06/12/TELEMMGLPICT000002497424_17181890939170_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqOjwtMIBfBvsmIG0UzgZgYNGmygSMXx0F6kNOzUL6Gw4.jpeg

And by 2003, we knew even more. Like how when Iraq captured Ali Al Salem Air Base in Kuwait, they lined up all of the officers in the mess hall and executed them (and hung the Commanding General of the Kuwait Air Force from the flagpole). Or after shooting the leader of the Kuwaiti Army (who was the younger brother of the Sheikh), they dragged his body in front of the Palace and ran over it with tanks. Or of the at that time over 600 Kuwaitis that were still missing from the 1991 war. All of this was known in 2003, but some decided it was not important at all.

Even though after the 2003 invasion and overthrow, over 300 of those missing Kuwaitis were found in mass graves in Iraq. But for 369 families, their fate is still unknown to this day.

The Mass Graves of al-Mahawil:

This report attempts to tell the story of the mass graves around al-Hilla. It identifies the victims, the circumstances of their arrest, and their ultimate execution and mass burial.

www.hrw.org

Then people wonder why the following quote is a mantra by which I try to live my life:

I see, good old American political division on two different parts. That, if not correctly addressed, can lead to its actual fragmentation.

About Iraq and the Saddam regime. You know, I have no pity for them at all. But I still can't say they the 2003 war was justified. It led to chaos and virtually a civil war in Iraq after the invasion that took too many lives; it led to Iraq being a hotbed for Islamic fundamentalists; it led to Iraq being in a shadow of Iran where the mullahs organazied Shia militia groups that took part in propping up the Assad regime in Syria.

You know, when I hear about Saddam Hussein being a butcher, a war criminal, and an asshole (and he was, of course) and that he deserved to be overthrown and killed, I can't help but think about a good friend of the West and a 'progressist' - the Shah of Iran and his SAVAK, whose inept policies and repressions led to the Islamic revolution afterwards. And that there was a time when this butcher Saddam was a good guy and was propped up in his senseless war with Iran that also took a huge number of lives for nothing.

Year, politics is an ugly thing, indeed.

 

[beagle9]

Not trying to derail or go off topic, but just a little opinion of mine if y'all will allow me. Thanks

Trump better watch out for the possibility of foreign government's working with a resistance from within, otherwise in an attempt to try and stop his presidency. I think we would be surprised or maybe not as to who the resistance is. Just watch the events unfolding, and never think that we don't have underminers/traitors in this nation who would hurt this nation in order to get what they want.

Anyone figured out the drones yet ?? What's with the big push to distract us ?

 

[Mushroom]

More like counter-attacks to blunt future attacks from Islamic Jihadists in those countries

To be accurate, they were not at that time "Islamic Jihadists".

Until the 2000s, what you had was various Islamic groups that often tagged onto the Palestinian movement. However, many were not actually Palestinian, or even cared about the movement at all but simply hid under the cloak of it. And they would as often attack each other as they would Jews.



But none of them were "Islamic Jihadists" as we have today, their membership and ideals were very different.

 

[Mushroom]

And that there was a time when this butcher Saddam was a good guy and was propped up in his senseless war with Iran that also took a huge number of lives for nothing.

Oh, the US did not care much for Iraq at that time either. Do not forget, the Shah was primarily buying weapons from the US in order to keep Iraq at bay.

I think the best and most accurate quote about that conflict comes from the 2005 movie "Lord of War". In it, wanna be arms dealer Yuri Orlov is meeting with a well known and respected Jewish arms dealer Simeon Weisz.

Simeon Weisz : I don't think you and I are in the same business, you think I just sell guns don't you? I don't, I take sides.
Yuri Orlov : But in the Iran-Iraq war you sold guns to both sides.
Simeon Weisz : Did you ever consider I wanted both sides to lose? Bullets change governments for surer than votes.

And that was the general consensus among most in that era. Remember, at the time that war started Iran was holding 53 American diplomatic staff from the embassy as hostages. And Iran was already promising to start spreading their "religious crusade" to other nations in the area. And Iraq was part of a spreading Ba'athist movement that had also taken over Syria, and had goals of taking over Palestine, Jordan, Sudan, Lebanon, and Egypt. So it was seen by a great many as much preferred to see Iran and Iraq fight each other, rather than see each of them trying to export their own forms of fanaticism to other nations in the region. And for a decade, it worked. Iran and Iraq were so occupied in trying to destroy each other that they were not trying to overthrow other nations.

And that line in the movie is actually more or less the stance of most nations of the time. The US, USSR, and many other nations did indeed sell weapons to both sides. But never in a quantity or of a type that would ultimately have any effect on the war. Even the US and USSR in this seem to be in agreement. Let neither side achieve dominance, just sell enough to keep then in an eternal stalemate.

And yes, you had SAVAK. Horrible things did happen, but nothing to the scale of what was going on in other similar organizations. Total deaths by SAVAK? Less than 500 over more than 20 years. Sednaya Prison in Syria is believed to be the site of over 30,000 executions in just the last three years. The things I have read about in Syria and Iraq under the Ba'athists pale only in comparison to the Khmer Rouge and NSDAP. And you try to compare SAVAK to those levels of inhumanity?

500 in over 20 years? Iran today tortures and executes on average over 800 people a year. In 2024 that total is over 1,000 people.

 

[whitehall]

To many, there is no such thing. All Veterans are either backers of the Police State, brainwashed minions of the MIC, or some other such nonsense. And are generally looked at as worse then felons.

Every war in the bloody 20th century started during a democrat administration. Democrats managed to blame Nixon for LBJ's war and the left and their minions in the media celebrated Clinton's bombing campaign on Yugoslavia after he was literally caught with his pants down in the Oval Office while the 9-11 terrorists were attending flight school in Florida. Clearly war is good for America when democrats are in office but not during republican administrations.

 

[ESay]

Oh, the US did not care much for Iraq at that time either. Do not forget, the Shah was primarily buying weapons from the US in order to keep Iraq at bay.

I think the best and most accurate quote about that conflict comes from the 2005 movie "Lord of War". In it, wanna be arms dealer Yuri Orlov is meeting with a well known and respected Jewish arms dealer Simeon Weisz.



And that was the general consensus among most in that era. Remember, at the time that war started Iran was holding 53 American diplomatic staff from the embassy as hostages. And Iran was already promising to start spreading their "religious crusade" to other nations in the area. And Iraq was part of a spreading Ba'athist movement that had also taken over Syria, and had goals of taking over Palestine, Jordan, Sudan, Lebanon, and Egypt. So it was seen by a great many as much preferred to see Iran and Iraq fight each other, rather than see each of them trying to export their own forms of fanaticism to other nations in the region. And for a decade, it worked. Iran and Iraq were so occupied in trying to destroy each other that they were not trying to overthrow other nations.

And that line in the movie is actually more or less the stance of most nations of the time. The US, USSR, and many other nations did indeed sell weapons to both sides. But never in a quantity or of a type that would ultimately have any effect on the war. Even the US and USSR in this seem to be in agreement. Let neither side achieve dominance, just sell enough to keep then in an eternal stalemate.

And yes, you had SAVAK. Horrible things did happen, but nothing to the scale of what was going on in other similar organizations. Total deaths by SAVAK? Less than 500 over more than 20 years. Sednaya Prison in Syria is believed to be the site of over 30,000 executions in just the last three years. The things I have read about in Syria and Iraq under the Ba'athists pale only in comparison to the Khmer Rouge and NSDAP. And you try to compare SAVAK to those levels of inhumanity?

500 in over 20 years? Iran today tortures and executes on average over 800 people a year. In 2024 that total is over 1,000 people.

I don't know where you got this '500 in over 20 years'. It is ridiculously low, really. Estimates that I have read about vary widely, but all of them say about 'thousands'.

About the Middle East as a whole. You know, the shortest way of describing policies of all global players in the post-WWI period would be 'disaster'. These policies brought nothing good there, but only made things worse.

The Middle East - where tribal and clan relations; religious, cultural and territorial conflicts go back for centuries - should be left alone by people who know nothing and don't care at all about them. Will there be wars, conflicts or even massacres there? Of course there will. It is the way they resolve their disagreements there. I don't support or praise these things. But the outsiders should mind their own business and don't pour oil on fire.

 

[beagle9]

To be accurate, they were not at that time "Islamic Jihadists".

Until the 2000s, what you had was various Islamic groups that often tagged onto the Palestinian movement. However, many were not actually Palestinian, or even cared about the movement at all but simply hid under the cloak of it. And they would as often attack each other as they would Jews.



But none of them were "Islamic Jihadists" as we have today, their membership and ideals were very different.

Sounds like leftist..

Ideals very different, but falling under the same magnetism in hopes to achieve an overall goal together.

 

[Mushroom]

Every war in the bloody 20th century started during a democrat administration.

Political demagoguery. Primarily by cherry-picking when such actually start.

Tell me, did the Gulf War start during a "Democrat Administration"? Grenada? Vietnam?

The US did not get heavily involved in that war until 1962, but it started in 1955 during the Eisenhower Administration.

You should know, I pretty equally dismiss political demagoguery from both sides.

 

[Concerned American]

but it started in 1955 during the Eisenhower Administration.

That war had been going decades before 1955. Eisenhower sent advisors in 1955.

 

[Mushroom]

The Middle East - where tribal and clan relations; religious, cultural and territorial conflicts go back for centuries - should be left alone by people who know nothing and don't care at all about them.

Try thousands of years. And during all of those thousands of years they were happily hacking up anybody that was not "them". Even during the "Arab Revolt" in WWI, a large number of Arabs fought on the side of the Ottoman Empire. And even among the Arabs, when not fighting the Ottoman, they would often fight amongst each other.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm a U.S. Veteran but I haven't necessarily "done things that haunt me at night". That seems like more of an indictment than praise.

Then you must either have a heart made of hard cold flint or never served in combat. I come from a very military family and those who HAVE served in combat know exactly what that phrase means. And it is no indictment. It is just the truly ugly necessary aspects of war which is the most stupid, inhumane activity humankind has come up with yet.

 

[Mushroom]

Sounds like leftist..

Ideals very different, but falling under the same magnetism in hopes to achieve an overall goal together.

Realist. Or do you think I am a "Leftist"?

From the 1960s through the 1990s, the major force in the region had little to nothing to do with religion, and was almost entirely based upon Anti-Israel sentiment. Feel free to look back at any of the groups founded or operating in the region at the time.

Abu Nidal and the ANO, Yasser Arafat and the PLO. Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Palestine Liberation Front, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah, Black September, Palestine Islamic Jihad, I can literally go on and on and on. There was almost no movements based on "Islamic Fundamentalism", that was fostered in Afghanistan after the Soviet Invasion then fostered by the Taliban. Who then exported it to the Middle East.

But please, care to provide a list of "Islamic Jihadists" in the region prior to the late 1990s?

 

[Mushroom]

That war had been going decades before 1955. Eisenhower sent advisors in 1955.

That was a different war. You should not confuse the French-Indochina War with the Vietnam War. They are two different conflicts.

And before that it was yet another one, largely unnamed from when Japan invaded and conquered Indochina. Not the same war.

And the advisors were sent in as part of the Geneva Accords. As part of the agreement the Soviets would assist and advise North Vietnam, the US would assist and advise South Vietnam. But the ink was not even dry on the peace treaty when North Vietnam started incursions and an assassination campaign against South Vietnam.