Messianic Jews

[disciple]

I'd like to hear your opinions, questions, comments...basically anything you think about Jews who follow Jesus. Just couldn't think of a better way to start this thread.

 

[5stringJeff]

They've apparently weighed all the evidence and decided that Jesus is, indeed, the Messiah He claimed to be.

 

[Kagom]

I profess I kknow not much about Messianic Jews other than they exist.

 

[jillian]

I'd like to hear your opinions, questions, comments...basically anything you think about jews who follow Jesus. Just couldn't think of a better way to start this thread.

There's no such thing as a messianic Jew... if they accept that Christ was the Messiah, they're Christian.

 

[glockmail]

There's no such thing as a messianic Jew... if they accept that Christ was the Messiah, they're Christian.

"Jewish" defines a race as well as a religion.

 

[disciple]

There's no such thing as a messianic Jew... if they accept that Christ was the Messiah, they're Christian.

Hang on a second, even atheists (at least those of them who read smart books) accept the fact that “Christ” is “the Messiah” i.e. christos=mashiach. Both of these titles basically mean the same thing: "the anointed one".

What do you mean "they're Christian"? Please remind me where did this term came from? What if they don't share the same doctrine e.g. don't accept ecumenical councils, what if they identify them selves as Jews? What if they still observe Torah and non-Christian biblical holydays?

Why don't they have a right to be yehudim mashiachim, messianic Jews, or Jewish followers of the messiah etc. Why should they call them selves the way somebody called non-Jewish followers of Jesus in Antioch 1900 years ago? I don't think that any of Jesus's apostles or thousands of Yerushalaimi Jews who accepted Jesus as the messiah during the first century identified them selves as "Christians". They didn't perceive them selves as ones who converted to a new religion, neither do I.

Some "church fathers" did a great job to separate Jews from Jesus, by forcing them to get rid of their religious and cultural heritage and assimilate. I don't think that this is the right way.

I think "Christianity" is a logical step in "evolution" of biblical faith, some might consider Talmudic Judaism as the next step - I don't. What we have to realize is that both of these religions are basically 2 branches of the same tree. I'd call it Judaism.

 

[disciple]

to Яша,

Поверь мне, ты - не Бог, хотя возможно - божок в языческом смысле этого слова

 

[jillian]

Hang on a second, even atheists (at least those of them who read smart books) accept the fact that “Christ” is “the Messiah” i.e. christos=mashiach. Both of these titles basically mean the same thing: "the anointed one".

What do you mean "they're Christian"? Please remind me where does this term comes from? What if they don't share the same doctrine e.g. don't accept ecumenical councils, what if they identify them selves as Jews? What if they still observe Torah and non-Christian biblical holydays?

Why don't they have a right to be yehudim mashiachim, messianic Jews, or Jewish followers of the messiah etc. Why should they call them selves the way somebody called non-Jewish followers of Jesus in Antioch 1900 years ago? I don't think that any of Jesus's apostles or thousands of Yerushalaimi Jews who accepted Jesus as the messiah during the first century identified them selves as "Christians". They didn't perceive them selves as ones who converted to a new religion, neither do I.

Some "church fathers" did a great job to separate Jews from Jesus, by forcing them to get rid of their religious and cultural heritage and assimilate. I don't think that this is the right way.

I think "Christianity" is a logical step in "evolution" of biblical faith, some might consider Talmudic Judaism as the next step - I don't. What we have to realize is that both of these religions are basically 2 branches of the same tree. I'd call it Judaism.

Because Christian is anyone who accepts Christ as the messiah. Judaism neither believes Jesus was the messiah nor believes that the messiah has come yet. Real simple... and I don't see it as "evolution", simply a different religion. Sorry, I'm not "unevolved" and I don't know if you mean it, but your comments sound awfully arrogant. Belief is fine.. I don't see yours as either superior to mine or as an "evolution" of my beliefs.

Judaism does not see the messiah in the same was as Christianity does. Rather than a 'savior', judaism believes that the messiah is a messianic king of the davidic line who will bring 1,000 years of peace (other stuff, too.. but it's not really relevant to this discussion).

So, no.. there is no such thing as a Jew who believes Jesus was the messiah. By definition that would be a rejection of jewish beliefs and be Christianity in its purest sense, a follower of Christ.

So, I stand by my statement and I suspect most other Jews would agree with me.

And I'm a bit confused by your assertion that athiests believe Jesus was the messiah. For an athiest to have a belief in the messiah, they'd first have to have a belief in G-d.

 

[jillian]

"Jewish" defines a race as well as a religion.

No, it doesn't. A race is a group of people with shared genetic traits. Jews exist in all different races. My race is caucasion. My religion is Judaism, my nationality is American.

 

[glockmail]

Hang on a second, even atheists (at least those of them who read smart books) accept the fact that “Christ” is “the Messiah” i.e. christos=mashiach. Both of these titles basically mean the same thing: "the anointed one".

What do you mean "they're Christian"? Please remind me where does this term comes from? What if they don't share the same doctrine e.g. don't accept ecumenical councils, what if they identify them selves as Jews? What if they still observe Torah and non-Christian biblical holydays?

Why don't they have a right to be yehudim mashiachim, messianic Jews, or Jewish followers of the messiah etc. Why should they call them selves the way somebody called non-Jewish followers of Jesus in Antioch 1900 years ago? I don't think that any of Jesus's apostles or thousands of Yerushalaimi Jews who accepted Jesus as the messiah during the first century identified them selves as "Christians". They didn't perceive them selves as ones who converted to a new religion, neither do I.

Some "church fathers" did a great job to separate Jews from Jesus, by forcing them to get rid of their religious and cultural heritage and assimilate. I don't think that this is the right way.

I think "Christianity" is a logical step in "evolution" of biblical faith, some might consider Talmudic Judaism as the next step - I don't. What we have to realize is that both of these religions are basically 2 branches of the same tree. I'd call it Judaism.

Interesting. I've never thought of this angle before. I suppose they would be analogous to a mirror image tree of Christianity, with the Catholics and Orthodox in the center, the Protestants on one side, and the Messianic Jews on the other side. They all believe in Christ, just interpret his teachings in different ways, and practice different traditions.

 

[disciple]

Judaism does not see the messiah in the same was as Christianity does. Rather than a 'savior', judaism believes that the messiah is a messianic king of the davidic line who will bring 1,000 years of peace (other stuff, too.. but it's not really relevant to this discussion).

Talmud was written between 2nd and fifth century. Rambam lived during 12th century. Rashi (שלמה ירח&#1497 -probably the greatest commentator lived around the same time. Prior to Rashi Yeshayahu 53 for example was interpreted as a messianic prophecy. There were many opinions and interpretations of messianic passages, including ones you've mentioned I could discuss "1,000 years of peace" in light of "freedom of choice" that every human being has. and we'll see how this rabbinic interpretation fits reality.
I don't honestly care what somebody might think about me or my beliefs, what I do not like is when people are telling me or my brothers who I should be, how I should live and who I should identify myself with.

P.S. Christians are my brothers and sisters, all of us are a part of the same tree.

 

[glockmail]

No, it doesn't. A race is a group of people with shared genetic traits. Jews exist in all different races. My race is caucasion. My religion is Judaism, my nationality is American.

It doesn't surprise me that you can never admit that you are wrong, but it is very annoying when you insist that I am not right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions

 

[disciple]

1"(A)These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from (B)stumbling.
2"They will (C)make you outcasts from the synagogue, but (D)an hour is coming for everyone (E)who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

Jn 16:1-2

Of course these days messianic believers do not face physical danger, but they experience moral pressure all the time whenever they have to interact (even if they don't wish to) with followers of talmudic judaism. This thread is a good example.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8599399540959255921

 

[dilloduck]

Judaism does not see the messiah in the same was as Christianity does. Rather than a 'savior', judaism believes that the messiah is a messianic king of the davidic line who will bring 1,000 years of peace (other stuff, too.. but it's not really relevant to this discussion).

What other stuff?

 

[disciple]

What other stuff?

Here are some examples of "other stuff":

http://yudelkrinsky.com/moshiach.html

http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.php?page=qaforumindex

 

[dilloduck]

Here are some examples of "other stuff":

http://yudelkrinsky.com/moshiach.html

http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.php?page=qaforumindex

So this Moshiac is here--Yudel?

 

[disciple]

So this Moshiac is here--Yudel?

according to that group of people - yes. according to other messianists of chabad-lubavitch Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the messiah, who is about to "reveal himself".

There's nothing new about these things, Shimon Bar Cochba (or בן כוזיב&#1488 was recognised as melech ha mashiach, there were many "messiahs" in jewish history.

 

[dilloduck]

according to that group of people - yes. according to other messianists of chabad-lubavitch Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the messiah, who is about to "reveal himself".

so what Christians and Messianic Jews will see as the second coming, the Jews will see as the first?

 

[disciple]

so what Christians and Messianic Jews will see as the second coming, the Jews will see as the first?

...and the only coming.

But Christians and messianic Jews view things differently, what we know for sure is that the messiah is a descendant of David (tzemach- "sprout" of David), but at the same time we know that the messiah had to suffer and die for our transgressions. In a mind of a Talmudic rabbi you just can't connect 1000nds of years of messiah's kingdom with his suffering, so there were 2 major Talmudic interpretations (two messianic concepts), the messiah bed David(son of David) and another messiah son of Joseph (I hope everyone remembers the story of Joseph in Genesis), some thought that ben Yoseph will die before the coming of ben David etc, they just couldn't imagine that there are going to be 2 comings of the same Mashiach who is a physical descendant of David and a son of Joseph metaphorically.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0137.htm

 

[jillian]

So this Moshiac is here--Yudel?

There were people who thought the Lubovitch Grand Rebbe was a messiah, too. But there have been lots of false messiahs and cults that followed them.

Yudel is a Yiddishism... would be anglicized to Joel.