Mental illness

[RetiredGySgt]

If the causes of a mental illness (for a particular person I mean) are organic then surely using drug therapy is appropriate. Take depression, if it can be alleviated using SSRIs then shouldn't they be used? I don't mean in isolation, I would think they would be okay along with CBT or some other behavioural therapy. But I wouldn't have a problem with someone trying a behaviour therapy before using drug therapy.

Like many things there's no clear answer. One thing I would throw out though is how many "mental illness" cases are socially and not medically constructed? That might be a bit ambiguous. I'm referring to "normal". Let me give an example.

Who hears voice in their head? No, that wasn't a typo, I mean "voice".

It's normal isn't it?

So if you hear more than one voice in your head and you know that the voices are really just your mind operating on you is that an illness? Or is it only an illness when the voices compel some sort of dangerous or unwarranted behaviour?

I had a voice. I always assumed it was just me talking to myself. It was not very friendly, nor nice. It constantly berated me. With Geodon the voice stopped completely. I never even realized it was anything other then just me talking to myself inside my head. Life is a lot easier with out that voice. The paranoia is easier to handle and deal with without that voice. It became much easier to see a solution to my problems without that voice. Coupled with celexia to help the geodon control the depression also the hole I was in became a shallow ditch and eventually with the right dose of celexa I am no longer in any hole. Throw in the provigil and my attitude and my m ind are easier to control. Those 3 medications took me from a complete basket case to a nearly normal person again.

And during it all I had talk therapy and part of the time I had group therapy. Without the medication the talking did almost nothing. Now it can help try to learn to do the stuff I need to do. Now when I talk about suicidal thoughts it is not simply to get enough strength to not act on the thoughts but it helps me understand the consequences of a bad decision. With out the medication Suicide was a real solution, with medication I understand suicide is not a solution.

No amount of talking ever really helped me. Medication finally did.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I would only add that aside from whatever intended uses of these drugs, they can be a lot of fun. A white bar, a little blue one and a little green one with a few beers. WOOOO HOOO....let's get fucked up.

 

[eots]

If the causes of a mental illness (for a particular person I mean) are organic then surely using drug therapy is appropriate. Take depression, if it can be alleviated using SSRIs then shouldn't they be used? I don't mean in isolation, I would think they would be okay along with CBT or some other behavioural therapy. But I wouldn't have a problem with someone trying a behaviour therapy before using drug therapy.

Like many things there's no clear answer. One thing I would throw out though is how many "mental illness" cases are socially and not medically constructed? That might be a bit ambiguous. I'm referring to "normal". Let me give an example.

Who hears voice in their head? No, that wasn't a typo, I mean "voice".

It's normal isn't it?

So if you hear more than one voice in your head and you know that the voices are really just your mind operating on you is that an illness? Or is it only an illness when the voices compel some sort of dangerous or unwarranted behaviour?

I had a voice. I always assumed it was just me talking to myself. It was not very friendly, nor nice. It constantly berated me. With Geodon the voice stopped completely. I never even realized it was anything other then just me talking to myself inside my head. Life is a lot easier with out that voice. The paranoia is easier to handle and deal with without that voice. It became much easier to see a solution to my problems without that voice. Coupled with celexia to help the geodon control the depression also the hole I was in became a shallow ditch and eventually with the right dose of celexa I am no longer in any hole. Throw in the provigil and my attitude and my m ind are easier to control. Those 3 medications took me from a complete basket case to a nearly normal person again.

And during it all I had talk therapy and part of the time I had group therapy. Without the medication the talking did almost nothing. Now it can help try to learn to do the stuff I need to do. Now when I talk about suicidal thoughts it is not simply to get enough strength to not act on the thoughts but it helps me understand the consequences of a bad decision. With out the medication Suicide was a real solution, with medication I understand suicide is not a solution.

No amount of talking ever really helped me. Medication finally did.

sincerely..if you find these drugs work for you and physically you can tolerate them I am happy to hear that..but people need to be fully informed of all options and drugs should always be the last resort..and anyone choosing a different treatment should be given all the rights..options and respect they deserve..my role as an advocate is to support those seeking alternatives and that are unhappy with the results of medication and a firm belief that drugs should not be given without consent in a first psychotic episode...and there is sound reasoning to support this

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Anyone agreeing to take medications is hardly forced. Anyone forced is done so under a COURT order. And those are all required to be proven.

Further the first thing that happens when ever I get my medications is that the pharmacy gives me a read out on EVERY medication that lists what it is, what it is used for and what its side effects are. They do this every time even when I am refilling meds I have taken for a LONG period of time.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Eots--

How many schizophrenics do you know who are NOT taking medicatioin? How many of them are in jail?

I ask this because I worked for a program that helped mentally ill and substance abusing offenders. Not one of them could make it on the outside without medication.

12. Assen Jablensky, "Schizophrenia: manifestations, incidence and course in different cultures, A World Health Organization ten-country study," Psychological Medicine, suppl. 20 (1992), 1-95. [Note: at least the last page is missing]

The second WHO organization study of this type was called the Determinants of Outcome of Severe Mental Disorders. It involved 1379 patients from 10 countries, and was designed as a follow-up study to the International Pilot Study of Schizophrenia. The patients in this study were first-episode patients, and 86% had been ill fewer than 12 months. This study confirmed the findings of the first: two-year outcomes were much better for the patients in the poor countries. In broad terms, 37 percent of the patients in the poor countries (India, Nigeria and Colombia) had a single psychotic episode and then fully recovered; another 26.7% of the patients in the poor countries had two or more psychotic episodes but still were in "complete remission" at the end of the two years. In other words, 63.7% of the patients in the poor countries were doing fairly well at the end of two years. In contrast, only 36.9% of the patients in the U.S. and six other developed countries were doing fairly well at the end of two years. The researchers concluded that "being in a developed country was a strong predictor of not attaining a complete remission."

http://psychrights.org/research/Digest/Chronicity/who2.pdf

 

[Sweet Willy]

Eots--

How many schizophrenics do you know who are NOT taking medicatioin? How many of them are in jail?

I ask this because I worked for a program that helped mentally ill and substance abusing offenders. Not one of them could make it on the outside without medication.

I know one that has refused medication for a long time. She flips the fuck out and causes all sorts of problems though. She'd not make it without the people who support her. Definately be locked up somewhere.

 

[eots]

Anyone agreeing to take medications is hardly forced. Anyone forced is done so under a COURT order. And those are all required to be proven.

Further the first thing that happens when ever I get my medications is that the pharmacy gives me a read out on EVERY medication that lists what it is, what it is used for and what its side effects are. They do this every time even when I am refilling meds I have taken for a LONG period of time.

this is not true and i already posted the laws for each state...no curt order is required in many states...they can drug the hell out of you for 72 hrs..then it only requires a rubber stamp to continue for another 2 weeks..only longer periods require a court order

 

[eots]

Eots--

How many schizophrenics do you know who are NOT taking medicatioin? How many of them are in jail?

I ask this because I worked for a program that helped mentally ill and substance abusing offenders. Not one of them could make it on the outside without medication.

12. Assen Jablensky, "Schizophrenia: manifestations, incidence and course in different cultures, A World Health Organization ten-country study," Psychological Medicine, suppl. 20 (1992), 1-95. [Note: at least the last page is missing]

The second WHO organization study of this type was called the Determinants of Outcome of Severe Mental Disorders. It involved 1379 patients from 10 countries, and was designed as a follow-up study to the International Pilot Study of Schizophrenia. The patients in this study were first-episode patients, and 86% had been ill fewer than 12 months. This study confirmed the findings of the first: two-year outcomes were much better for the patients in the poor countries. In broad terms, 37 percent of the patients in the poor countries (India, Nigeria and Colombia) had a single psychotic episode and then fully recovered; another 26.7% of the patients in the poor countries had two or more psychotic episodes but still were in "complete remission" at the end of the two years. In other words, 63.7% of the patients in the poor countries were doing fairly well at the end of two years. In contrast, only 36.9% of the patients in the U.S. and six other developed countries were doing fairly well at the end of two years. The researchers concluded that "being in a developed country was a strong predictor of not attaining a complete remission."

http://psychrights.org/research/Digest/Chronicity/who2.pdf

I know many people that have ceased medications with the assistance of psychiatrist and are doing better than ever..None of them have been in jail with or without medications

 

[eots]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhluHUAAc9A]YouTube - Involuntary Commitment & Drugging, Psychiatry, Civil Rights[/ame]

 

[eots]

RGS...here are the laws state by state...just so you know the facts

MEDICATION PERMITTED UPON ADMISSION TO STATE HOSPITAL

INVOLUNTARY MEDICATION BY PROCESS

 

[Sky Dancer]

They can make taking your medication an issue of jail time or not.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Eots--

How many schizophrenics do you know who are NOT taking medicatioin? How many of them are in jail?

I ask this because I worked for a program that helped mentally ill and substance abusing offenders. Not one of them could make it on the outside without medication.

12. Assen Jablensky, "Schizophrenia: manifestations, incidence and course in different cultures, A World Health Organization ten-country study," Psychological Medicine, suppl. 20 (1992), 1-95. [Note: at least the last page is missing]

The second WHO organization study of this type was called the Determinants of Outcome of Severe Mental Disorders. It involved 1379 patients from 10 countries, and was designed as a follow-up study to the International Pilot Study of Schizophrenia. The patients in this study were first-episode patients, and 86% had been ill fewer than 12 months. This study confirmed the findings of the first: two-year outcomes were much better for the patients in the poor countries. In broad terms, 37 percent of the patients in the poor countries (India, Nigeria and Colombia) had a single psychotic episode and then fully recovered; another 26.7% of the patients in the poor countries had two or more psychotic episodes but still were in "complete remission" at the end of the two years. In other words, 63.7% of the patients in the poor countries were doing fairly well at the end of two years. In contrast, only 36.9% of the patients in the U.S. and six other developed countries were doing fairly well at the end of two years. The researchers concluded that "being in a developed country was a strong predictor of not attaining a complete remission."

http://psychrights.org/research/Digest/Chronicity/who2.pdf

I know many people that have ceased medications with the assistance of psychiatrist and are doing better than ever..None of them have been in jail with or without medications

I don't believe they were schizophrenic or bipolar or schizoaffective then. Some people are misdiagnosed and perhaps your friends were and did not need medication.

 

[eots]

They can make taking your medication an issue of jail time or not.

they can do a lot of things it doesn't make it right..

 

[eots]

Eots--

How many schizophrenics do you know who are NOT taking medicatioin? How many of them are in jail?

I ask this because I worked for a program that helped mentally ill and substance abusing offenders. Not one of them could make it on the outside without medication.

I know many people that have ceased medications with the assistance of psychiatrist and are doing better than ever..None of them have been in jail with or without medications

I don't believe they were schizophrenic or bipolar or schizoaffective then. Some people are misdiagnosed and perhaps your friends were and did not need medication.

that is because of your limited understanding of so called mental illness and the effects of medications..i would seriously suggest you look at these studies and inform yourself and get back to me on that...

PsychRights®
Law Project for
Psychiatric Rights

Neuroleptics and Chronic Mental Illness



The case against antipsychotic drugs: a 50-year record of doing more harm than good, by Robert Whitaker, Medical Hypotheses, Volume 62, Issue 1 , 2004, Pages 5-13 is the academically written presentation of the information in Mad in America: Bad Science, Bad Medicine and the Enduring Mistreatment of the Mentally Ill. The research papers analyzed in both of these publications is set forth below.

This article was cited in the British Medical Journal, Vol. 328/414, February, 2004:

Maintaining people with schizophrenia on neuroleptics (the accepted standard care) may actually be doing them a disservice. According to a 50 year review, long term treatment worsens long term outcomes, and up to 40% of people would do better without neuroleptics. Initiation of treatment only after a subsequent episode and helping patients who are stabilised on neuroleptics to gradually withdraw from them would increase recovery rates and reduce the proportion of patients who become chronically ill (Medical Hypotheses 2004;62:5-13).

1. Leon Epstein, "An Approach to the Effect of Ataraxic Drugs on Hospital Release Rates," American Journal of Psychiatry, 119 (1962), 36-47.

This was the first large scale study of hospital release rates in the 1950s for schizophrenia patients treated with and without neuroleptics, and it concluded that "drug-treated patients tend to have longer periods of hospitalization." P. 44.

2. Nina Schooler, "One year after discharge: community adjustment of schizophrenic patients," American Journal of Psychiatry, 123 (1967), 986-995.

This NIMH study looked at one-year outcomes for 299 patients who had been treated either with neuroleptics or placebo upon their admission to a hospital, and was the first long-term study conducted by the NIMH. The researchers found that "patients who received placebo treatment in the drug study were less likely to be rehospitalized than those who received any of the three active phenothiazines (thioridazine (Mellaril), fluphenazine (Prolixin), chlorpromazine (Thorazine)." However, in spite of this finding, which the researchers wrote "was so unexpected," the NIMH investigators stated that they "were unprepared to recommend placebo as treatment of choice." In other words, the NIMH researchers decided they wouldn't develop treatment guidelines based on their own research, which found that placebo patients did better than the drug-treated patients. SEE PAGE 991.

3. Robert Prien, "Relapse in Chronic Schizophrenics Following Abrupt Withdrawal of Tranquillizing Medication," British Journal of Psychiatry, 115 (1968), 679-86.

The critical finding of this NIMH study was that relapse rates rose in direct relation to dosage--the higher the dosage patients were on before the drugs were withdrawn, the greater the relapse rates. At the start of the study, 18 patients were on placebo, and only one got worse over the next six months (6%). Sixty-five patients were on 300 mg. of chlorpromazine at the start of the study, and 54% of these patients worsened after the drug was withdrawn. One hundred thirteen patients were on more than 300 mg. of chlorpromazine at the start of the study, and 66% of these patients got worse after drug withdrawal. SEE TABLE THREE, PAGE 684.

4. Robert Prien, "Discontinuation of Chemotherapy for Chronic Schizophrenics," Hospital and Community Psychiatry, 22 (1971), 20-23.

In this NIMH study, the earlier finding that relapse rates rose in correlation with neuroleptic dosage was confirmed. Only 2 of 30 patients who were on placebo at the start of the study relapsed during the next 24 weeks (7%). Twenty-three percent of the 99 patients who were on under 300 mg. of chlorpromazine at the start of the study relapsed following drug withdrawal. Fifty-two percent of the 91 patients who were on 300 to 500 mg. of chlorpromazine at the start of the study relapsed following drug withdrawal, and sixty-five percent of the 81 patients who were on more than 500 mg. of chlorpromazine at the start of the study relapsed following drug withdrawal. The researchers concluded: "Relapse was found to be significantly related to the dose of the tranquilizing medication the patient was receiving before he was put on placebo--the higher the dose, the greater the probability of relapse." SEE PAGE 22, AND 23

5. J. Sanbourne Bockoven Comparison of Two Five-Year Follow-Up Studies: 1947 to 1952 and 1967 to 1972, American Journal of Psychiatry, 132 (1975), 796-801.

In this study, Boston psychiatrists Sanbourne Bockoven and Harry Solomon compared relapse rates in the pre-drug era to those in the drug era, and found that patients in the pre-drug era had done better. Forty-five percent of the patients treated at Boston Psychopathic Hospital in 1947 had not relapsed in the five years following discharge, and 76% were successfully living in the community at the end of that follow-up period. In contrast, only 31% of patients treated in 1967 with drugs at a Boston community health center remained relapse-free for the next five years, and as a group they were much more "socially dependent"--on welfare, etc.--than those in the 1947 cohort.

Other researchers who reviewed relapse rates for New York psychiatric hospitals in the 1940s and early 1950s reported similar findings: roughly 50% of discharged schizophrenia patients had remained continuously well through lengthy follow-up periods, which was markedly superior to outcomes with neuroleptics. See Nathaniel Lehrman, "A state hospital population five years after admission: a yardstick for evaluative comparison of follow-up studies," Psychiatric Quarterly, 34 (1960), 658-681; and H.L. Rachlin, "Follow-up study of 317 patients discharged from Hillside Hospital in 1950," J. Hillside Hospital, 5 (1956), 17-40.

6. William Carpenter, Jr., "The treatment of acute schizophrenia without drugs: an investigation of some current assumptions," American Journal of Psychiatry, 134 (1977), 14-20.

In this 1977 NIMH study, 49 schizophrenia patients, placed into an experimental hospital program that provided them with psychosocial support, were randomized into drug and non-drug cohorts. Only 35% of the non-medicated patients relapsed within a year after discharge, compared to 45% of those treated with medication. The medicated patients also suffered more from depression, blunted emotions, and retarded movements.

7. Maurice Rappaport, "Are there schizophrenics for whom drugs may be unnecessary or contraindicated?" International Pharmacopsychiatry

Neuroleptics and Chronic Mental Illness

 

[Sky Dancer]

that is because of your limited understanding of so called mental illness and the effects of medications..i would seriously suggest you look at these studies and inform yourself and get back to me on that...

I have considerable understanding of mental illness and the effects of medication from my professional work and from my personal experience with mentally ill relatives.

I suggest you debate the topic more and let us know why you have such an axe to grind on this issue rather than insulting those of us who are sincerely interested in benefiting people iwth mental illness.

 

[eots]

that is because of your limited understanding of so called mental illness and the effects of medications..i would seriously suggest you look at these studies and inform yourself and get back to me on that...

I have considerable understanding of mental illness and the effects of medication from my professional work and from my personal experience with mentally ill relatives.

I suggest you debate the topic more and let us know why you have such an axe to grind on this issue rather than insulting those of us who are sincerely interested in benefiting people iwth mental illness.

I am not insulting you I am stating facts ..I don't really care what your experience is within the system.. from your statements that anyone that has gone off medication and done better was misdiagnosed shows your lack of understanding of the reality of mental illness and psych drugs...can you comment on the studies I have posted ?...and how dare you insult my sincerity with helping people with mental illness..if you truly have a desire to help those with mental illness you should be fully i informed and you clearly are not and are simply parroting the the drug company status qoa...don't just tell me of your knowledge of the effects of medication by saying you have it..prove it..back it up with..information or it is just an empty statement

 

[KittenKoder]

I know of four women, not including myself, who have been severely screwed up because of psych meds, two are completely incapable of living on their own. These were not all misdiagnoses, but the meds made matters worse. Turns out, the FDA let them pass without full testing and the docs just wanted to make a buck. I have physical issues because of mine, which was a misdiagnoses. Seriously, we are a junky country thanks to the docs.

 

[eots]

that is because of your limited understanding of so called mental illness and the effects of medications..i would seriously suggest you look at these studies and inform yourself and get back to me on that...

I have considerable understanding of mental illness and the effects of medication from my professional work and from my personal experience with mentally ill relatives.

I suggest you debate the topic more and let us know why you have such an axe to grind on this issue rather than insulting those of us who are sincerely interested in benefiting people iwth mental illness.

don't send me neg reps and shitty little messages in private..back up your statements with facts.information..or not
you tell me of a death due to anti psychotics in one breath them support them in the next...that makes no sense

 

[AllieBaba]

If the causes of a mental illness (for a particular person I mean) are organic then surely using drug therapy is appropriate. Take depression, if it can be alleviated using SSRIs then shouldn't they be used? I don't mean in isolation, I would think they would be okay along with CBT or some other behavioural therapy. But I wouldn't have a problem with someone trying a behaviour therapy before using drug therapy.

Like many things there's no clear answer. One thing I would throw out though is how many "mental illness" cases are socially and not medically constructed? That might be a bit ambiguous. I'm referring to "normal". Let me give an example.

Who hears voice in their head? No, that wasn't a typo, I mean "voice".

It's normal isn't it?

So if you hear more than one voice in your head and you know that the voices are really just your mind operating on you is that an illness? Or is it only an illness when the voices compel some sort of dangerous or unwarranted behaviour?

I had a voice. I always assumed it was just me talking to myself. It was not very friendly, nor nice. It constantly berated me. With Geodon the voice stopped completely. I never even realized it was anything other then just me talking to myself inside my head. Life is a lot easier with out that voice. The paranoia is easier to handle and deal with without that voice. It became much easier to see a solution to my problems without that voice. Coupled with celexia to help the geodon control the depression also the hole I was in became a shallow ditch and eventually with the right dose of celexa I am no longer in any hole. Throw in the provigil and my attitude and my m ind are easier to control. Those 3 medications took me from a complete basket case to a nearly normal person again.

And during it all I had talk therapy and part of the time I had group therapy. Without the medication the talking did almost nothing. Now it can help try to learn to do the stuff I need to do. Now when I talk about suicidal thoughts it is not simply to get enough strength to not act on the thoughts but it helps me understand the consequences of a bad decision. With out the medication Suicide was a real solution, with medication I understand suicide is not a solution.

No amount of talking ever really helped me. Medication finally did.

For some with singular mental illnesses medication can be a godsend. However, the majority of the horribly mentally ill have issues beyond what mere medication can cure...but that doesn't stop doctors from prescribing MULTIPLE drugs which have insane side effects to those poor souls who are so messed up they are in mental institutions or committed to group homes.

I've worked with many mentally ill people. There are those who are crazy on multiple levels...and with those people, generally they can find a medication which helps one symptom...but which bring on a multitude of other symptoms. Which they are then prescribed meds for, which can exacerbate issues or create new ones...and so it goes.

RGS is one of the lucky ones, he's found a med that works for his illness and he should stick with it. Hearing voices isn't funny, and it's one of the things that meds can actually help with. Provided there aren't other issues (psychological and physical) that co-exist with it.

I have anxiety disorder, as does my son. He also is epileptic, though he has been seizure free (without medication) for years. In him the two are entwined, and he has decided to cope with them without medication, which is his right and his strength. My anxiety order is thankfully one that can be successfully managed with one medication at a time. For years, like RGS, I thought it was normal to wake up every morning feeling something horrible was impending, or always feeling I'd DONE something horrible. It wasn't until I finally went to a doctor and said, look, I go days without sleeping, and I never sleep more than a few hours at a time, and no matter how "right" I'm living my life, I always feel like shit. Which of course can lead to destructive or self-destructive behavior, because if you always feel like you're doing the wrong thing, you lack the ability to make intelligent choices.

Eliminating medication for all mental illness is not the answer. However, I've worked with guys in group homes and kids in detention who were arbitrarily prescribed horrible drugs which did nothing at all to make them more sane...they just make them crazy (or stupid, or ill) in another way.

I was sickened by the fact that the sex offenders I was responsible were prescribed multiple medications..none of which "cured" them of being sex offenders, none of which made them less crazy, but simply made their weight shoot up and down and their moods swing even more unpredictably than usual, caused weird sleep disorders, sexual dysfunction (yes, imagine prescribing medication to sex offenders that can result in hallucinations, painful and eternal erections and psychotic episodes. Brilliant. Oh, and liver damage.)

 

[AllieBaba]

So the long and short of it is..if you are able to recognize what your problem is, and you find the med that makes you feel better, go with it. Why feel like crap if you don't have to?

On the other hand, if you know what your problem is, and you want to deal with it on your own, and can, successfully, do so, there is nothing wrong with that.

And as far as experimenting with drugs on children who are a little antsy (imagine, kids who are antsy) or sex offenders who are fucked up every way from Sunday, that's bullshit. It's much easier for a crazy person, who can't be cured or even soothed by medication, to live a life with symptoms he knows and can cope with on some level year in and year out than it is for that person to continually have to deal with new symptoms and side effects caused by meds arbitrarily and carelessly prescribed by doctors who are just guessing.

Meanwhile, those of us who have issues with things like pain can't get our asshole doctors to give us what we need to cope with a sore throat that lasts for 2 weeks, or 3 inch bone spurs in our backs.

Fucking doctors.