Maybe It's Me, But ......

[Gunny]

I guess I must of served in a "different" Army, cause Sarge WASN'T taken in a negative sense.

I called my NCOIC, Sarge ,everyday, didn't seem to bother him.

Course, I was only a Spec 4, maybe the noncom's forgave us.

I served, in the US Army, from Sept. of '65 till June of "68, got an "early out", and received my honorable discharge in New York.

I cannot speak for the Army and what I was told by an Army Sgt I worked with prior to my time. I was in elementary school when you served.

However, this Sgt did indeed tell me that "Sarge" was considered disrespectful even in the Army.

The Marines are a whole 'nuther story. When you address an enlisted man in the Marines, it isn't "Sergeant So-n-So." It's "STAFF Sergeant So-n-So," Gunny (or Gunnery Sergeant) So-n-So," .... the only appropriate person to call a "sergeant" is an E-5, Sgt.

And if you call somebody "sarge," you need to bring your hearing protection.

 

[nt250]

I cannot speak for the Army and what I was told by an Army Sgt I worked with prior to my time. I was in elementary school when you served.

However, this Sgt did indeed tell me that "Sarge" was considered disrespectful even in the Army.

The Marines are a whole 'nuther story. When you address an enlisted man in the Marines, it isn't "Sergeant So-n-So." It's "STAFF Sergeant So-n-So," Gunny (or Gunnery Sergeant) So-n-So," .... the only appropriate person to call a "sergeant" is an E-5, Sgt.

And if you call somebody "sarge," you need to bring your hearing protection.

Stupid question?

What do you mean by "enlisted man"?

What are the different levels of ranks and when does someone become an officer? I guess "hired" isn't the right word, but are all officers always hired as officers? Can the lower ranks get promoted?

 

[Gunny]

Stupid question?

What do you mean by "enlisted man"?

What are the different levels of ranks and when does someone become an officer? I guess "hired" isn't the right word, but are all officers always hired as officers? Can the lower ranks get promoted?

Did I offend your feminism?

It is a term used by those o fus who have not yet embraced political correctness and/or feminism, to denote a person who is enlisted in the US military vs a person who commissioned an officer in the US military.

In general I say "enlisted man" just as I say "fireman." If I was referring specifically to an enlisted woman, I would say "enlisted woman."

IF you are offende, don't be. I treated ALL military personnel according to the rank on their uniforms until they proved themselves worthy or unworthy of treatment otherwise.

If you are looking for the differentiation between enlisted an officers -- officers are college-educated so-called leaders and enlisted are usually high school grads with no further education the time of enlistment. The pay scale reflects. Officers make a whole lot more money. And they pay the women the same as the men.

 

[nt250]

Did I offend your feminism?

It is a term used by those o fus who have not yet embraced political correctness and/or feminism, to denote a person who is enlisted in the US military vs a person who commissioned an officer in the US military.

In general I say "enlisted man" just as I say "fireman." If I was referring specifically to an enlisted woman, I would say "enlisted woman."

IF you are offende, don't be. I treated ALL military personnel according to the rank on their uniforms until they proved themselves worthy or unworthy of treatment otherwise.

If you are looking for the differentiation between enlisted an officers -- officers are college-educated so-called leaders and enlisted are usually high school grads with no further education the time of enlistment. The pay scale reflects. Officers make a whole lot more money. And they pay the women the same as the men.

Jeez. Do you have flaming feminists here? A little bit defensive there guy.

Just for the record, I am not a flaming feminist. My question had nothing to do with women at all. What I know about the military I got mostly from movies.

Can an enlisted man ever become an officer through a promotion, or do they all have to go to school for it?

I'm from Rhode Island so the Navy is about the only branch I've read much about. I don't know if it's still there, but there was a some kind of Navy school in Newport. I can't remember what it was called.

 

[Gunny]

Jeez. Do you have flaming feminists here? A little bit defensive there guy.

Just for the record, I am not a flaming feminist. My question had nothing to do with women at all. What I know about the military I got mostly from movies.

Can an enlisted man ever become an officer through a promotion, or do they all have to go to school for it?

I'm from Rhode Island so the Navy is about the only branch I've read much about. I don't know if it's still there, but there was a some kind of Navy school in Newport. I can't remember what it was called.

SSSSssssshhhhhhh ...... (I'm expecting Said to come kick my butt any minute!)

Enlisted personnel can become officers through several programs, depending on which branch of service they are in and what is offered. In the Corps, one can get selected to MECEP (military enlisted to commissioned education program) .... they can go to college on their own time and once their enlistment is up apply for Officer Candidate School, or one can be selected as a Warrant Officer (kind of like a promotion board) where enlisted are screened based on their occupational specialties, experience, and personnel record.

So, it can be done. Former enlisted officers make the best and worst officers. Very few fall in the middle. A good former enlisted officer will have more of his Marines' respect than a straight-up, candyass college boy officer.

 

[nt250]

SSSSssssshhhhhhh ...... (I'm expecting Said to come kick my butt any minute!)

Enlisted personnel can become officers through several programs, depending on which branch of service they are in and what is offered. In the Corps, one can get selected to MECEP (military enlisted to commissioned education program) .... they can go to college on their own time and once their enlistment is up apply for Officer Candidate School, or one can be selected as a Warrant Officer (kind of like a promotion board) where enlisted are screened based on their occupational specialties, experience, and personnel record.

So, it can be done. Former enlisted officers make the best and worst officers. Very few fall in the middle. A good former enlisted officer will have more of his Marines' respect than a straight-up, candyass college boy officer.

Sounds just like the phone company.

Some of the worst bosses I've ever had are former co-workers who got promoted to management.

Not to harp on the whole feminist thing, but I'd rather work for a man than a woman any day. There are always exceptions, but by and large the worst bosses I've ever had are women. "I don't need to know the job, I just need to know how to manage people" bullshit. And it is bullshit. The best bosses trust their best people, don't harp on petty crap, and are secure in their position. Most women are totally incapable all three.

Oh, and they cry. I really hate that.

 

[Gunny]

Sounds just like the phone company.

Some of the worst bosses I've ever had are former co-workers who got promoted to management.

Not to harp on the whole feminist thing, but I'd rather work for a man than a woman any day. There are always exceptions, but by and large the worst bosses I've ever had are women. "I don't need to know the job, I just need to know how to manage people" bullshit. And it is bullshit. The best bosses trust their best people, don't harp on petty crap, and are secure in their position. Most women are totally incapable all three.

Oh, and they cry. I really hate that.

It is my opinion that the workforce in general is more about BS management anymore than tecnucal proficiency.

I never really cared about what genfer my boss was just so long as they were technically proficient and capable of doing their fair share. Equal work for equal pay means just what it says. All too often the reality of that though is the work is NOT equal, and those that take advantage of, and/or the enablers thereof ruin it for everyone else.

 

[Annie]

It is my opinion that the workforce in general is more about BS management anymore than tecnucal proficiency.

I never really cared about what genfer my boss was just so long as they were technically proficient and capable of doing their fair share. Equal work for equal pay means just what it says. All too often the reality of that though is the work is NOT equal, and those that take advantage of, and/or the enablers thereof ruin it for everyone else.

I agree. I think this probably holds true across all types of employers, those that work hard and do an excellent job, end up doing their work and part of other, less able/productive workers' load too. Then the lame ducks complain about 'equal pay.' Sheesh!

I've worked at the phone company, in management and it was true there. It's also true in teaching, where not only do you have to undo damage, but if you are good, the administration will have you give inservices and assign you to standards committees for a few bucks, but hours and hours worth of work.

 

[archangel]

I cannot speak for the Army and what I was told by an Army Sgt I worked with prior to my time. I was in elementary school when you served.

However, this Sgt did indeed tell me that "Sarge" was considered disrespectful even in the Army.

The Marines are a whole 'nuther story. When you address an enlisted man in the Marines, it isn't "Sergeant So-n-So." It's "STAFF Sergeant So-n-So," Gunny (or Gunnery Sergeant) So-n-So," .... the only appropriate person to call a "sergeant" is an E-5, Sgt.


I was a E-5 Sgt prior to being a 2nd Lt...I did not mind being called "Sarge" but hey 'Ass-hole' as a Lt was a bit over the top...even though I may have deserved it...Not...always a 'Sarge' at heart! Guess thats why I went into the Army...mo' relaxed...lol


side note: then again a Sgt E-5 was referred to as a "Buck Sgt" kinda akin to "Stud"...so if someone said hey "Buck" that did not bother me either...Oh well Marines are a "Few Good Men"...What else can I say!

 

[archangel]

I guess I must of served in a "different" Army, cause Sarge WASN'T taken in a negative sense.

I called my NCOIC, Sarge ,everyday, didn't seem to bother him.

Course, I was only a Spec 4, maybe the noncom's forgave us.

I served, in the US Army, from Sept. of '65 till June of "68, got an "early out", and received my honorable discharge in New York.

Me 5-5-64 through 7-12-68...time served including overtime for OCS...LOL

 

[archangel]

Jeez. Do you have flaming feminists here? A little bit defensive there guy.

Just for the record, I am not a flaming feminist. My question had nothing to do with women at all. What I know about the military I got mostly from movies.

Can an enlisted man ever become an officer through a promotion, or do they all have to go to school for it?

I'm from Rhode Island so the Navy is about the only branch I've read much about. I don't know if it's still there, but there was a some kind of Navy school in Newport. I can't remember what it was called.

Audie Murphy WWII hero received what is referred to as a 'Battlefield" Commission...From Buck Sgt. To 2nd Lt...In my case I was no hero...so I had to go to OCS...! There are many others over the decades of war who received 'Battlefield 'as well as OCS Commissions!

 

[Gunny]

I cannot speak for the Army and what I was told by an Army Sgt I worked with prior to my time. I was in elementary school when you served.

However, this Sgt did indeed tell me that "Sarge" was considered disrespectful even in the Army.

The Marines are a whole 'nuther story. When you address an enlisted man in the Marines, it isn't "Sergeant So-n-So." It's "STAFF Sergeant So-n-So," Gunny (or Gunnery Sergeant) So-n-So," .... the only appropriate person to call a "sergeant" is an E-5, Sgt.


I was a E-5 Sgt prior to being a 2nd Lt...I did not mind being called "Sarge" but hey 'Ass-hole' as a Lt was a bit over the top...even though I may have deserved it...Not...always a 'Sarge' at heart! Guess thats why I went into the Army...mo' relaxed...lol


side note: then again a Sgt E-5 was referred to as a "Buck Sgt" kinda akin to "Stud"...so if someone said hey "Buck" that did not bother me either...Oh well Marines are a "Few Good Men"...What else can I say!

See, that just all depends on your perspective. As a Gunny, if I even acknowledged a LT's presence they were like happy little puppies wagging their tails.

 

[archangel]

See, that just all depends on your perspective. As a Gunny, if I even acknowledged a LT's presence they were like happy little puppies wagging their tails.

if they were ROTC or Academy Grads...not OCS or 'Battlefield'...cause' then ya would be spanked...'Gunny'! Oh yeah I did take note of your quoting and patting yourself on the back...typical Marine...' one of the few'...lol Thats why the Army sent y'all in first...'expendable'...lol

 

[Gunny]

if the were ROTC or Academy Grads...not OCS or 'Battlefield'...cause' then ya would be spanked...'Gunny'!

Naturally, there is quite a different level of respect for a "Mustanger" than a boot LT. Those deserving of respect got it. Those undeserving were never really in a position to do anything about it. And note that I did not say I was disrespectful.

Be all that as it may, Marine officers don't even try to "spank" Gunnery Sergeants. With the exception of that 10% that exists in almost all equations, by the time you make Gunny you usually have your head and ass wired pretty tight.

And I have visibly witnessed on more than one occasion officers walking away a few pounds lighter in the ass for trying to "spank" a SgtMaj.

 

[archangel]

Naturally, there is quite a different level of respect for a "Mustanger" than a boot LT. Those deserving of respect got it. Those undeserving were never really in a position to do anything about it. And note that I did not say I was disrespectful.

Be all that as it may, Marine officers don't even try to "spank" Gunnery Sergeants. With the exception of that 10% that exists in almost all equations, by the time you make Gunny you usually have your head and ass wired pretty tight.

And I have visibly witnessed on more than one occasion officers walking away a few pounds lighter in the ass for trying to "spank" a SgtMaj.

This is true...now you are a SGTMaj? Big difference between Gunny and SgtMaj...ask CSM...I will not argue that rank... they answer to the Battalion Commander only!...LOL

 

[trobinett]

Naturally, there is quite a different level of respect for a "Mustanger" than a boot LT. Those deserving of respect got it. Those undeserving were never really in a position to do anything about it. And note that I did not say I was disrespectful.

Be all that as it may, Marine officers don't even try to "spank" Gunnery Sergeants. With the exception of that 10% that exists in almost all equations, by the time you make Gunny you usually have your head and ass wired pretty tight.

And I have visibly witnessed on more than one occasion officers walking away a few pounds lighter in the ass for trying to "spank" a SgtMaj.

While stationed in Belgium, at the Headquarters for SHAPE, I had the pleasure of serving under a lst LT, nick named "Razor". Baddest SOB I ever met, in, or out of the service, and I know some bad ass bikers, being one myself.

Anyhoo, this man was/is an Airborne Ranger, could run circles around anyone, do more push ups, or set ups than humanly possible. By the time he became our second in command, he'd already made one ture of duty in 'nam, and had put in to go back. Always had a smile on his face, treated EVERYONE with respect, and ALL OF US would of followed him directly into to hell, some did.

Hell of an officer.

 

[Gunny]

This is true...now you are a SGTMaj? Big difference between Gunny and SgtMaj...ask CSM...I will not argure that rank... they answer to the Battalion Commander only!...LOL

Just using it as an example, not promoting myself, and really not trying to get into a pissing contest by saying once I made Sgt (E-5) I never took any shit off any officer for any reason. I made sure I was right BEFORE I opened my mouth, and had no problem doing the latter following the former.

As a matter of fact, as a Sgt I basically told a Army captain what he could go do to himself .... with all due respect and in a tactful manner, of course.

Point is, there was never a confrontation with good officers. If there was disagreement, we discussed it like adults, resolved the issue and went about our business.

Everyone knew crappy officers for what they were and as long as there was no blatant, open disrespect; especially, in front of subordiantes, the CO would not back them up. Rest assured I knew how to play the game before I drew a hand in it.

This of course is in no way a reflection on you, or how you were as an officer. YOu sound like my brother (an Army captain) feeling the need to defend all officers everywhere. Fact is, I conducted myself as a professional at all times and the run-ins were few and far-between, but inevitably they happen.

 

[archangel]

Just using it as an example, not promoting myself, and really not trying to get into a pissing contest by saying once I made Sgt (E-5) I never took any shit off any officer for any reason. I made sure I was right BEFORE I opened my mouth, and had no problem doing the latter following the former.

As a matter of fact, as a Sgt I basically told a Army captain what he could go do to himself .... with all due respect and in a tactful manner, of course.

Point is, there was never a confrontation with good officers. If there was disagreement, we discussed it like adults, resolved the issue and went about our business.

Everyone knew crappy officers for what they were and as long as there was no blatant, open disrespect; especially, in front of subordiantes, the CO would not back them up. Rest assured I knew how to play the game before I drew a hand in it.

This of course is in no way a reflection on you, or how you were as an officer. YOu sound like my brother (an Army captain) feeling the need to defend all officers everywhere. Fact is, I conducted myself as a professional at all times and the run-ins were few and far-between, but inevitably they happen.

Relax...Gunny...not defending Lt's or any other officer...I was a Buck Sgt before I was a LT...as a matter of fact my Step-Dad was a Naval Commander...LTC Pilot...could not stand the guy...and I resigned my Commission and went back to being a Buck Sgt...cause I decided not to make the military a career...and for trob...hey 'Razor' was not my Nick Name 'Gator' was...but he sounds like my Bro!...lol

 

[Gunny]

While stationed in Belgium, at the Headquarters for SHAPE, I had the pleasure of serving under a lst LT, nick named "Razor". Baddest SOB I ever met, in, or out of the service, and I know some bad ass bikers, being one myself.

Anyhoo, this man was/is an Airborne Ranger, could run circles around anyone, do more push ups, or set ups than humanly possible. By the time he became our second in command, he'd already made one ture of duty in 'nam, and had put in to go back. Always had a smile on his face, treated EVERYONE with respect, and ALL OF US would of followed him directly into to hell, some did.

Hell of an officer.

I worked for several officers I'd follow into Hell if that's where they said go, the Col on my last deployment (98-99) being one. We called him "the Duke" with GOOD reason.

 

[CSM]

The bottom line is that there is a difference between enlisted, warrant and commissioned personnel. They each have their role and 99.9% serve with honor and in a professional manner. There are a few who do not.

Historically, there was a time when "Sarge" was an acceptable form of address for enlisted noncommissioned officers. I know that it used to be ok to call a First Sergeant "Top" or "First Shirt"... it is no longer acceptable. Officers were and are always addressed as "Sir" or by their rank.

I suspect it began to change in the late 70's when (what I thought was a PC misguieded effort) junior enlisted became offended at some of the names NCOs used to refer to them (like "maggot" "dirtbag" and worse). Gradually, the rule was that NCOs MUST address junior enlisted by their name and rank ONLY. With that, terms like "Sarge" also went out the window.

Just for clarification: there are two ranks that are referred to as Sergeant Major. Both are E-9 paygrades. The first is Sergeant Major and refers to an E-9 who is a member of the commander's staff. This soldier generally works in the command's operation center and performs a variety of tasks, depending on the commanders desires. These individuals usually (though not always) answer to the S-3 or some other senior officer on the commander's staff.

The second is Command Sergeant Major. This individual is the senior enlisted person in the command and answers ONLY to the commander. When I say commander, it means an officer who is charge of a unit at battalion level or higher (battalion, brigade/regiment, division, and corps) or of a special unit authorized such a position. The CSM's job/tasks are defined by the commander but usually include responsibility for ensuring that the commander's policy is enforced, that the enlisted are being trained properly, and a host of other things. Because a CSM answers ONLY to one person he/she has very special responsibility and very special authority.

NOt every soldier attains the rank of Sergeant Major or CSM. While there are requirements for time in service, etc, the selection process is very stringent and the approval process for promotion to either rank is very lengthy, detailed and arduous. You can bet that a SM or CSM has been scrutinized in every way by everyone of any importance at the DoD and DA levels.