Maybe It's Me, But ......

[archangel]

I don't know. I think showing a marine killing his drill sargeant has politics written all over it.

Did that ever happen in real life?


Made me sick to my stomach. That's all I can say.

It was over the top...not that maybe it did or did not happen..I never witnessed it...albeit fraggin' did happen in Nam...not good, but life is a bitch!

And being a supervisor in a combat zone it gets a little scarry from time to time...always a few psychos out there!

 

[archangel]

End of story. Arch says so!

I cannot speak for everyone or every incident that happened in Nam...only expressed what I saw and experienced...being that I suspect that I was middle of the road in this war...I can only assume that what I expressed was the 'Norm'...if someone wants to share what they saw that is different...go for it I am all ears!...But let's not go down the Lt.Kerry and Murtha road!...Fair enough?

 

[Gunny]

relive the 'combat' scenes and interaction amongst the troops..it did happen...race issues were addressed on a realistic value...as was the combat of the era...it did not cross the line as it did occur and was addressed appropriately...fair and balanced...albeit I was there and can say it did happen this way...sorry Gunny ask your Dad!

I disagree, and don't need to ask my Dad jack shit. The movie itself presented the US military in a negative light, and the racism thing was overplayed to the max for a two hour movie.

 

[Gunny]

I don't know. I think showing a marine killing his drill sargeant has politics written all over it.

Did that ever happen in real life?


Made me sick to my stomach. That's all I can say.

I don't know of any incident that a recruit murdered his Drill Instructor. Gunny Hartman was over the top. What he did was excessive, and the result was Pvt Lawrence snapped. It's an exaggeration of the Marine Corps forcing people to fit the mold whether they were suitable to the mold or not.

It was still a Hollywood play of the worst that could happen. In real life, Private Pyle would have been dropped to the Porkchop Platoon (that's where disgusting fatbodies go), end of story as far as Hartman's platoon is concerned.

But I saw it as entertainment, not politics.

 

[archangel]

I disagree, and don't need to ask my Dad jack shit. The movie itself presented the US military in a negative light, and the racism thing was overplayed to the max for a two hour movie.

Sorry Gunny y'all are all wet behind the ears on this one...I remember being in Germany before Nam...this 'Black' dude slapped me(Bitch slapped) me cause I brushed against him as I was trying to perform my duties as CQ runner...I stopped the second hit and told him I would be happy to continue this after I was off duty...he was upset as I also told him during formation earlier in the day that I would not give up my position in ranks to his saying he was the king and I was in his spot...(go figure) He as it turned out was upset over the riots in California and I was from California...to make a story short we became best of friends later on...he being a VN combat soldier and all...sometimes in combat one learns to respect one another...we all covered each others backs! Albeit it was a learning process! So to say that I am full of s*** I rest my case...I grew up as did he...and this type of 'racism' fell on both sides of the aisle...I never grew up hating any race as it was not allowed in my parents home...but I did taste it in the military from both sides of the aisle...and Gunny both sides learned from our mistakes...blame it on fear or whatever if ya chose!

 

[nt250]

I don't know of any incident that a recruit murdered his Drill Instructor. Gunny Hartman was over the top. What he did was excessive, and the result was Pvt Lawrence snapped. It's an exaggeration of the Marine Corps forcing people to fit the mold whether they were suitable to the mold or not.

It was still a Hollywood play of the worst that could happen. In real life, Private Pyle would have been dropped to the Porkchop Platoon (that's where disgusting fatbodies go), end of story as far as Hartman's platoon is concerned.

But I saw it as entertainment, not politics.

Well, I'll acquiesce to your experience.

But I think movies like that just play into the same revisionist history and propaganda that anti-Americanism thrives on. Every movie about the American military doesn't have to be flag waving, red-white-and-blue propaganda, either. But it doesn't need to be so down right nasty.

 

[Gunny]

Sorry Gunny ya all are all wet behind the ears on this one...I remember being in Germany before Nam...this 'Black' dude slapped me(Bitch slapped) me cause I brushed against him as I was trying to perform my duties as CQ runner...I stopped the second hit and told him I would be happy to continue this after I was off duty...he was upset as I also told him during formation earlier in the day that I would not give up my position in ranks to his saying he was the king and I was in his spot...(go figure) He as it turned out was upset over the riots in California and I was from California...to make a story short we became best of friends later on...he being a VN combat soldier and all...sometimes in combat one learns to respect one another...we all covered each others backs! Albeit it was a learning process! So to say that I am full of s*** I rest my case...I grew up as did he...and this type of 'racism' fell on both sides of the aisle...I never grew up hating any race as it was not allowed in my parents home...but I did taste it in the military from both sides of the aisle...and Gunny both sides learned from our mistakes...blame it on fear or whatever if ya chose!

Sometimes I have to wonder where you are coming from. I didn't say racism didn't exist. It existed when I enlisted. It STILL exists to an extent.

To focus on the topic at least three times during a two hour movie about the Battle for Hill 937 is overkill. Giving the issue some screen time to ackowledge that it existed is one thing. The "Doc's" obsession with "da man" was a major subplot to the movie. Hardly representative of racism in front line units; which, as you yourself have stated, was a luxury for those in the rear to indulge themselves in.

I think sometimes you argue about stuff just for the sake of arguing.

 

[Gunny]

Well, I'll acquiesce to your experience.

But I think movies like that just play into the same revisionist history and propaganda that anti-Americanism thrives on. Every movie about the American military doesn't have to be flag waving, red-white-and-blue propaganda, either. But it doesn't need to be so down right nasty.

IMO, "Full Metal Jacket" is more about the people with the Vietnam War as backdrop. On the other hand, "Platoon," "Hamburger Hill," "Apocalpse Now," and "The Deerhunter" were indictments of the war itself.

 

[archangel]

Sometimes I have to wonder where you are coming from. I didn't say racism didn't exist. It existed when I enlisted. It STILL exists to an extent.

To focus on the topic at least three times during a two hour movie about the Battle for Hill 937 is overkill. Giving the issue some screen time to ackowledge that it existed is one thing. The "Doc's" obsession with "da man" was a major subplot to the movie. Hardly representative of racism in front line units; which, as you yourself have stated, was a luxury for those in the rear to indulge themselves in.

I think sometimes you argue about stuff just for the sake of arguing.

The hill was taken and retaking several times(sorry I was Air Cav and the movie about AirBorne not Marines...we are obviously below ya...lol)...the racism was covered as it really did happen...Doc was overeacting as did alot of people...we all worked it out as the movie showed!

 

[Gunny]

The hill was taken and retaking several times(sorry I was Air Cav and the movie about AirBorne not Marines...we are obviously below ya...lol)...the racism was covered as it really did happen...Doc was overeacting as did alot of people...we all worked it out as the movie showed!

Hill 937 was actually take only once, on the 10th day of battle. It cost the US 70 dead and 370 wounded compared to a known 630 dead NVA. Don't know how y'all old folks did it back then, but when you inflict better than 8/1 dead on the enemy and hold the field after the battle nowadays it's considered a win.

And so it probably would have been had not AP correspondent William Sharbutt's overly-sensational coverage been so critical of the US military.

In EVERY account I have ever read on the operation, while racism is mentioned, it is not portrayed as being as big a factor as the movie protrays it.

In EVERY accounting I have read Sharbutt's negative media coverage IS mentioned. Just as Tet 68 had been the previous year, a resounding victory was portrayed by the media as pointless, and a defeat. Newsweek went so far as to misrepresent ALL 200+ casualties in Vietnam that week as casualties of Hamburger Hill alone, misleading the public to believe it had cost far more in US lives than it had.

The military did little to help itself. After the seige at Khe Sahn, the Marines were told a month or so later to abandon the outpost. Same thing in the A Shau Valley. The fact that the A Shau Valley was abandoned was strategically stupid, and a PR disaster to do it so soon after the media had hammered them over the battle. To the American public, this made the battles seem pointless.

Just as the Tet Offensive in 68 is always portrayed as a US defeat, so is Hamburger Hill. In both cases, they were resounding tactical victories. And in fact, where the NVA chose to make a stand and fight, the US lost more casualties at Dak To and Ia Drang.

IMO, the movie just reinforces this negative view of the US military in Vietnam; especially, in the continual questioning "why" and claiming it was pointless.

I can't imagine why any military would want to take command of the tallest mountain overlooking a valley the enemy routinely used as part of its route for supplies and men to and from North Vietnam.:duh3: