Zone1 Mary's Consent

[DakotaKai_fan20]

At least Road Runner laughed. I give Road Runner credit for that

Why do you get your kicks from bullying April, Carl?

 

[Road Runner]

Why do you get your kicks from bullying April, Carl?

It's because I eat meat.

 

[Cougarbear]

So in other words, you agree with me that God did it by divine intervention just as I originally said.

Yes, but probably not the way the Holy Ghost performed the miracle because it's not a miracle in our days. It was 2000 years ago.

 

[Meriweather]

You bow down and pray to your "saints". You also bow down to their stone images

We bow in prayer to God. Saints who are praying with us are bowing as well. There is quite a difference between bowing in prayer and bowing to a stone image. For example, do you kneel (or bow) in prayer with your children at bedtime. Are you bowing to the bed, or are you bowing in prayer?

I always recommend reading the Old Testament and God's Commands about images on the Ark, the Temple, and the image of the snake. The Commandment is not to worship idols, and in those days, people worshiped the actual carvings in wood, stone, or gold, believing the image was a deity. The images on the Ark, in the Temple, not to mention the snake, was to call to mind God and the holiness surrounding Him.

People who worry about images in and around Catholic churches should go home and destroy all photographs and pictures in their homes lest they fall down in worship of a relative of the painting of a flower. If the picture of relatives only calls to mind memories of the actual being...well, then you can picture the many memories of God's help in personal lives and all of mankind are surrounding those in prayer.

 

[toobfreak]

Yes, but probably not the way the Holy Ghost performed the miracle because it's not a miracle in our days. It was 2000 years ago.

Mary's immaculate conception would be a miracle in any age. It was a Divine act of God, not merely "ahead of its time."

God by definition isn't just a write up of a fresh idea in Popular Mechanics--- no matter how advanced man ever becomes, God is still infinitely far ahead of us.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

We bow in prayer to God. Saints who are praying with us are bowing as well. There is quite a difference between bowing in prayer and bowing to a stone image. For example, do you kneel (or bow) in prayer with your children at bedtime. Are you bowing to the bed, or are you bowing in prayer?

I always recommend reading the Old Testament and God's Commands about images on the Ark, the Temple, and the image of the snake. The Commandment is not to worship idols, and in those days, people worshiped the actual carvings in wood, stone, or gold, believing the image was a deity. The images on the Ark, in the Temple, not to mention the snake, was to call to mind God and the holiness surrounding Him.

People who worry about images in and around Catholic churches should go home and destroy all photographs and pictures in their homes lest they fall down in worship of a relative of the painting of a flower. If the picture of relatives only calls to mind memories of the actual being...well, then you can picture the many memories of God's help in personal lives and all of mankind are surrounding those in prayer.

"You shalt not make for yourselves any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You SHALL NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM NOR SERVE THEM. I am the Lord your God"

 

[Meriweather]

"You shalt not make for yourselves any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You SHALL NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM NOR SERVE THEM. I am the Lord your God"

Let the blind see, the deaf hear...

Can't help but giggle at "fake news". That always hits someone doesn't have an answer. Having nothing to say they content themselves with a "fake news".

Listen again. God's Commandment has nothing to do with artistry and art work. It has to do with worshiping idols. How did people make or attain idols? They carved them or bought carvings that were believed to be gods. Learn.

 

[Cougarbear]

Mary's immaculate conception would be a miracle in any age. It was a Divine act of God, not merely "ahead of its time."

God by definition isn't just a write up of a fresh idea in Popular Mechanics--- no matter how advanced man ever becomes, God is still infinitely far ahead of us.

Not with in vitro fertilization. Note the scripture says the Holy Ghost came over her, not the Father. And certainly not the Son.

 

[BreezeWood]

-- no matter how advanced man ever becomes, God is still infinitely far ahead of us.

nothing could be further from the truth - all in the heavens are equal ... let the infantile christians, desert dwellers remain in purgatory at best where they belong.

polytheism is that everyone is able to be creators who's in charge is random as jesus taught - being as one would eventually be the failure of everything.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Let the blind see, the deaf hear...

Can't help but giggle at "fake news". That always hits someone doesn't have an answer. Having nothing to say they content themselves with a "fake news".

Listen again. God's Commandment has nothing to do with artistry and art work. It has to do with worshiping idols. How did people make or attain idols? They carved them or bought carvings that were believed to be gods. Learn.

This is the problem with the Catholic cult.
Jesus said, "call no man father"
You call your leaders "father"
Jesus said, "keep the Commandments"
You teach people to reject His Sabbath and adopt Sunday
He said, 'do not worship graven images"
You teach people to worship the dead

I could go on. And on and on

I'm your iconoclast

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Listen again. God's Commandment has nothing to do with artistry and art work. It has to do with worshiping idols. How did people make or attain idols? They carved them or bought carvings that were believed to be gods. Learn

No pagan religion ever believed the statues, fetishes, or images were the gods themselves. Much like Catholic ikonography, they were reminders and representations of the gods. Also like the ikons, they were made to glorify and praise the god in whose image they were made.Dec 6, 2015

 

[Care4all]

Mary is not the Savior and that's the point

Who has ever said Mary is the Savior or our Savior? Why are you making up crap that no one ever said, but you?

 

[SweetSue92]

Where are you getting all your information? We do not glorify Mary. We honor her as we do many Saints. The remark about secretaries is pure ignorance. Why the hostility towards the Catholic faith

For my part, I'm not hostile toward it as some are. Some Protestants believe Catholics are not and CANNOT be saved. I do not. I know many Catholics I believe are personally saved.

That said.

Your teaching on Mary is quite frankly just....odd. It's enough that God chose her. It's enough that she accepted the choice at great personal risk. That alone makes her a heroine of the faith. Nothing else needs to be spun about her. Not her perpetual virginity (!). Not her, Mary herself, being conceived immaculately (!). Not that she 'intercedes' or whatever.

She is one of us. Chosen, called blessed. But just one of us. That's it.

 

[SweetSue92]

Who has ever said Mary is the Savior or our Savior? Why are you making up crap that no one ever said, but you?

She is made into a savior-like figure the second you go on and on about her perpetual virginity. And then to spiral it forward and back: the idea that she herself was conceived "immaculately".

Yes, that makes her a savior-like figure. And there's just not a thing in the Bible--WHICH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PUT TOGETHER--that lends credibility to this

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I know many Catholics I believe are personally saved

Not for you to judge either way. We are to "work out our OWN salvation, with fear and trembling."

We do have a responsibility to point out false teaching however

 

[Moonglow]

Hellenistic influence in literature is present in both Jewish and Christian religions.
Zeus would impregnate common women to produce demi gods.

 

[Meriweather]

This is the problem with the Catholic cult.
Jesus said, "call no man father"
You call your leaders "father"
Jesus said, "keep the Commandments"
You teach people to reject His Sabbath and adopt Sunday
He said, 'do not worship graven images"
You teach people to worship the dead

I could go on. And on and on

I'm your iconoclast

No, you are not an iconoclast. A post that displays ignorance touches nothing.

What definition of 'Father' was Jesus using when he said this? 'Father' was the title given to people who were originators or initiated the early history of something. George Washington, the father of our country, but more to Jesus point, 'Father Abraham'. There is an interesting passage in John where Jesus speaks of Abraham to a group of people. He says, "...your Father Abraham..." and contrasts it with his own Father, the God who sent him.

God is the originator of our life in faith. His Laws and His Ways are written in our hearts. God is the Father of truth. Jesus went to say not to call anyone 'master' but using a word that could be equally translated as 'teacher', 'mister', 'sir', 'mrs.', 'miss', even 'reverend'. If you were adamant about Jesus' words, you would be adamant and insistent that people be called by their first names only. There would be no, "Mr. President", it would be Joe or Donald. Do you insist that people, even your children, only address you by your first name? If this is not the case, then don't be a hypocrite.

Note Jesus, and then the Apostles calling their disciples children, children in faith. It was a family relationship, and recalls a tradition before a line of priests (the tribe of Levi) came to be. The father of each family led his family in faith. This was not a title, but a relationship. This return to the idea of the family priest, led to regarding the person who taught the faith in a community as a spiritual father. In Catholicism, we are a family of believers, of spiritual people, led by a spiritual teacher--but not an outsider--a close member of our family and we all call God, Father.

The early Christians (and Jews) saw the first day of the week as the day of creation. In Jesus' life, death, and then resurrection on the first day of the week, they celebrated the new day of creation which was called The Lord's Day. We are called to remember and to keep holy the Lord's Day, our day of Creation. If you wish to continue in the Old Covenant and keep holy the Seventh day, the day God rested, holy--nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with those of us who celebrate the Lord's Day and keep the day of our new creation holy, either.

That Catholics worship graven images and the dead is such pure, determined ignorance I'm going to leave you to it. Again, I hope all your walls, tables, shelves, desks, at home and office are free of any image, completely bare, less you fall down in worship of objects and pictures displayed. And, heaven forbid, anyone you have ever loved or admired cross you mind or memory after they have passed on, as--by your own definition--you are guilty of worshiping the dead.

Learn. Your false accusations will cease, and instead of the ideal of being an 'iconoclast' perhaps your ideal will become truth and wisdom.


PS: Hey! Don't forget to add "Fake News" to this post as your rebuttal.

 

[Meriweather]

Your teaching on Mary is quite frankly just....odd. It's enough that God chose her. It's enough that she accepted the choice at great personal risk. That alone makes her a heroine of the faith. Nothing else needs to be spun about her. Not her perpetual virginity (!). Not her, Mary herself, being conceived immaculately (!). Not that she 'intercedes' or whatever.

She is one of us.

It's not a teaching, but a reminder of what the early Christians and Apostolic Tradition passed on through their Church. When Protestants broke away from the Church, Protestants disregarded the information passed down about Mary. So, no spinning by Catholics, only the Protestants dismissing what had been handed down--and then manufacturing their own Protestant version of Mary.

What puzzles me about the Protestant version of Mary is why they cannot believe what was handed down to us by early Christians? Note, these threads/posts never begin with, "Early Christians were wrong, mistaken, in error about everything they said about Mary." These threads/posts instead say, "Catholics...." without bothering to acknowledge where Catholics received these teachings.

The second thing that puzzles me is the non-Catholic reaction to Mary's Immaculate Conception, her reported perpetual virginity, her being full of grace (without sin) - All these miracles in Mary's life they seemingly disregard and dismiss as being beyond God's ability to bestow...as if God's only power in Mary's life was in creating Jesus' life in her womb.

(Keep in mind atheists cannot believe the miracle of the Incarnation, either. That might make an interesting thread: Atheists and Protestants discussing how Protestants can believe one miracle in Mary's life while dismissing all the others.)

Note your paragraph where you give Mary all the credit for her choice, almost like her choice was a given as millions of others would have given the angel the same response. Once more, it seems vitally important to some, that Mary could have been anyone because she was like anyone.

Mary was/is a singular human person, unique. And she was fully graced/saved by God, a fact Mary herself proclaims.

 

[Meriweather]

She is made into a savior-like figure the second you go on and on about her perpetual virginity. And then to spiral it forward and back: the idea that she herself was conceived "immaculately".

Yes, that makes her a savior-like figure. And there's just not a thing in the Bible--WHICH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PUT TOGETHER--that lends credibility to this

Note again your 'CATHOLIC CHURCH' instead of EARLY CHRISTIANS.

Bringing the Savior into the world is far from one being a savior. Seriously.

Note that Paul (early Christian) described Jesus as the New Adam. If there was a New Adam, then what was Mary. Note John's Gospel, where Jesus often calls his mother, 'Woman'. John (early Christian) points this out because Adam called Eve 'Woman'. Who created Adam and then Eve? Correct, God. Yet you take issue of the miracle of the Immaculate Conception, almost as if God can create a male, but nah--He would never take a hand in creating a female! Who was the mother? Eve...Mary. Who was disobedient? Eve and Adam. Who was obedient Mary and Jesus.

Who sacrificed his life to redeem the world and open the way of salvation. Jesus. Alone. Imagine for a moment Jesus dying of a childhood illness or even an accidental death during his ministry. It is inconceivable that people would come to regard Mary as 'savior' -- and therefore inconceivable that she is any kind of savior. Think about all the Apostles who led people to Jesus. Can you also conceive of them as savior-like figures? After all, most of them laid down their lives to continue the faith. Why not hurl that accusation at the Apostles Catholics honor, the same as they honor Mary? Most of the Apostles were martyrs. Mary was not.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

No, you are not an iconoclast. A post that displays ignorance touches nothing.

What definition of 'Father' was Jesus using when he said this? 'Father' was the title given to people who were originators or initiated the early history of something. George Washington, the father of our country, but more to Jesus point, 'Father Abraham'. There is an interesting passage in John where Jesus speaks of Abraham to a group of people. He says, "...your Father Abraham..." and contrasts it with his own Father, the God who sent him.

God is the originator of our life in faith. His Laws and His Ways are written in our hearts. God is the Father of truth. Jesus went to say not to call anyone 'master' but using a word that could be equally translated as 'teacher', 'mister', 'sir', 'mrs.', 'miss', even 'reverend'. If you were adamant about Jesus' words, you would be adamant and insistent that people be called by their first names only. There would be no, "Mr. President", it would be Joe or Donald. Do you insist that people, even your children, only address you by your first name? If this is not the case, then don't be a hypocrite.

Note Jesus, and then the Apostles calling their disciples children, children in faith. It was a family relationship, and recalls a tradition before a line of priests (the tribe of Levi) came to be. The father of each family led his family in faith. This was not a title, but a relationship. This return to the idea of the family priest, led to regarding the person who taught the faith in a community as a spiritual father. In Catholicism, we are a family of believers, of spiritual people, led by a spiritual teacher--but not an outsider--a close member of our family and we all call God, Father.

The early Christians (and Jews) saw the first day of the week as the day of creation. In Jesus' life, death, and then resurrection on the first day of the week, they celebrated the new day of creation which was called The Lord's Day. We are called to remember and to keep holy the Lord's Day, our day of Creation. If you wish to continue in the Old Covenant and keep holy the Seventh day, the day God rested, holy--nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with those of us who celebrate the Lord's Day and keep the day of our new creation holy, either.

That Catholics worship graven images and the dead is such pure, determined ignorance I'm going to leave you to it. Again, I hope all your walls, tables, shelves, desks, at home and office are free of any image, completely bare, less you fall down in worship of objects and pictures displayed. And, heaven forbid, anyone you have ever loved or admired cross you mind or memory after they have passed on, as--by your own definition--you are guilty of worshiping the dead.

Learn. Your false accusations will cease, and instead of the ideal of being an 'iconoclast' perhaps your ideal will become truth and wisdom.


PS: Hey! Don't forget to add "Fake News" to this post as your rebuttal.

I don't bow down to stone. That's on you.

I get it. Your church represent Opposite Day in the Christian world. Whatever the Scriptures say DONT DO, you find excuses to do.

Peter warned about you: "they twist the Scriptures to their own destruction."