Zone1 Mary Is The Mother Of Jesus Christ, She Isn't Actually Jesus Christ

[hadit]

The wonderful thing about limitations...argue for them and you get to keep them.

You might as well argue that we will have the ability to teleport anywhere we want to, because limitations. It's a nice idea that Mary is all set up at the heavenly switchboard, routing prayers around, but there's no Biblical foundation for anything beyond her simply being in the presence of and worshipping the One who died for her sin.

 

[hadit]

The church I currently attend has two statues of St. Joseph; one as father, one as worker. (Horrors? )

Do you kneel in front of them? If you kneel in front of ANY statues, why?

 

[hadit]

In fact it is Protestants that have the obsession of Mary. For Catholics, she is simply a fellow member of the Body of Christ. I burst out laughing at the thought we ignore Joseph. He features prominently in the Feast of the Holy Family, in presenting Jesus in the Temple, in finding Jesus when he was twelve. Yes, he has his own feast days. March 19 celebrates St. Joseph's role in the life of Christ; May 1 celebrates St. Joseph and his role and model as worker. Actually, my Aunt is an example of one who often asked St. Joseph to join in her prayers. So...Protestants can now obsess over St. Joseph and claim that instead of being a member of the Body of Christ, he is obviously being worshiped by Catholics?

Do you pray to him like you do Mary? Do you think he was free of sin, like you do Mary? Do you believe he was a life-long virgin, like you do Mary? Or is he an ordinary human, like us?

 

[Meriweather]

That wouldn't make sense in the context if they were talking about His cousins or other family members, after citing His parents. It makes utmost sense if they were talking about His literal father, mother, brothers and sisters.

There were no words for extended family members. There was a word for male family members (that Protestants view only as blood-brothers); and a word for female family members (that Protestants view only as blood-sisters). Later, St. Jerome (I think it was) was warned that people might believe Jesus had half-brothers and sisters, and Jerome laughed him off, saying no one would possibly believe that. Imagine that, a Catholic Saint being wrong!

 

[Meriweather]

It's a nice idea that Mary is all set up at the heavenly switchboard, routing prayers around,

That may be how you picture it, but that is not the Catholic perspective, so don't put it on Catholics.

 

[BreezeWood]

Bible Prophesy...All generations shall call her Blessed! What do you think that means? Why was it said?

the 1st century events are a repudiation of judaism, the false commandments of the liar moses - mary, joseph, mary magdalene and jesus were all 4 exemplars of the original, paradisian religion of antiquity in their own right and were praised by the heavens.

- the events of liberation theology, self determination - no where found in the desert religions.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you kneel in front of them? If you kneel in front of ANY statues, why?

I don't know if Protestants kneel in church. It is common practice in a Catholic church, so do you also claim that Catholics kneel before people, and that when I kneel behind those in front of me, I am actually kneeling to them? People come up with some really odd ideas, don't they. Catholics cannot be seen as kneeling with Mary in prayer, they MUST (by non-Catholics) be seen as kneeling to Mary. Is that written down somewhere, or was a memo sent out to all Protestants?

 

[hadit]

There were no words for extended family members. There was a word for male family members (that Protestants view only as blood-brothers); and a word for female family members (that Protestants view only as blood-sisters). Later, St. Jerome (I think it was) was warned that people might believe Jesus had half-brothers and sisters, and Jerome laughed him off, saying no one would possibly believe that. Imagine that, a Catholic Saint being wrong!

Uh, yeah, they can indeed be wrong. Even the Pope can be wrong. They're normal humans just like us, after all, and everything they say needs to be validated against the Word of God.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you kneel in front of them? If you kneel in front of ANY statues, why?

Yes, because of this (apparently) really bad habit I have of kneeling in church. Therefore, I am kneeling in front of Mary, Joseph, John-the-Baptist, Jesus, candles, and all those represented in the Stations of the Cross where Jesus is being tried, whipped, crowned, nailed, etc. According to you I must be worshiping Pontius Pilate (who I sometimes pray for) and the soldier nailing Jesus to the cross (who I sometimes pray for).

I don't think you understand how silly this sounds to Catholics. Most of us are mystified by the Protestant obsession, so just shrug it off, especially when people have no interest in the spiritual reality Catholics are blessed with experiencing.

 

[Care4all]

I have to ask the question, why does anyone believe she was set up to here the prayers of millions? It's not in the Bible AT ALL, there's absolutely no support for it.

I think because she was involved in Christ's first miracle, supplying the best wine, when they ran out of wine at the wedding feast....it was Mary asking Jesus for help, it was Mary who Jesus performed the miracle for....

so I believe, but I am not 100% certain, that this is how Catholics interpret this passage in the Bible? Christians were being taught, that Mary... Christ's mother, has a special ear with Jesus....

Why else have the passage in the Bible mentioning her, in this wedding scenario? Why not the groom? Or someone else mentioning the wine ran out?

It's one interpretation, I suppose....who am I to say, they are wrong in their beliefs regarding this.....?

I've only given you a layman's answer....

I'd venture to guess, the Catholic Church could give much more in depth of an answer?

 

[Meriweather]

Do you pray to him like you do Mary? Do you think he was free of sin, like you do Mary? Do you believe he was a life-long virgin, like you do Mary? Or is he an ordinary human, like us?

As I don't pray to Mary, there is no sensible response to this question. Joseph was not described by an angel as full of grace--and an angel did appear to him in a dream. Catholics take no interest in Joseph's sex life. There is some indication that the families of both Mary and Joseph belonged to a community, rare in that day especially among Jews, who took a vow of chastity or virginity. John-the-Baptist, who is said to be related to both Mary and Jesus, is accepted as doing so, and he is seen as a prophet.

 

[hadit]

I don't know if Protestants kneel in church. It is common practice in a Catholic church, so do you also claim that Catholics kneel before people, and that when I kneel behind those in front of me, I am actually kneeling to them? People come up with some really odd ideas, don't they. Catholics cannot be seen as kneeling with Mary in prayer, they MUST (by non-Catholics) be seen as kneeling to Mary. Is that written down somewhere, or was a memo sent out to all Protestants?

Protestants don't kneel in front of statues, and Mary's statue is not kneeling with you, you are kneeling in front of it.

 

[ding]

Catholics insist they don't worship Mary, then pray to her and believe she is not only listening to them but can hear millions of people praying all at once all day long for different things. Catholics insist that Mary is not divine while insisting that she was sinless, even though Scripture tells us there is only ONE in human history that was sinless. Catholics insist that Mary was a virgin her entire life and invent stepchildren to get around Scripture saying she wasn't. Pretending that Mary is not a major differentiating factor between Catholics and the rest of Christianity is fallacious.

I suggest you take this up with the early Church Fathers. You know... the ones that preceded the Catholic Church.

 

[Meriweather]

Protestants don't kneel in front of statues, and Mary's statue is not kneeling with you, you are kneeling in front of it.

So what? When I am out in nature, and I kneel in front of a tree, am I (according to you) worshiping a tree? Actually, when worshiping at home, I'm often in front of a lion and a lamb. Are you imagining me worshiping them? Listen, hadit, you haven't a clue as to what is in peoples' hearts or their prayers. You have been assured time and again Catholics are merely in prayer, as a community, all of whom are worshiping God, not statues.

In the Catholic Church Jesus if fully present in the Eucharist. We kneel, we worship, the presence of God. If you are like most Protestants, you hold no belief in the True Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Church, yet somehow you imagine statues as somehow, not only being truly present, but truly worshiped. As Catholics, we can only shake our heads at such nonsense, and continue with our own communion with God, not only as an individual, but as a member of the Body of Christ. This Body of Christ includes Mary and Joseph. Catholics have no problem with admiring them. Protestant seem petrified if they admire or honor Mary and Joseph they will slip into worshiping their statues. If this happens to you, I suggest the following mantra: "It is only a statue, it is only a statue, it is only a statue.." and you will be fine. Catholics are above such nonsense.

 

[hadit]

As I don't pray to Mary, there is no sensible response to this question. Joseph was not described by an angel as full of grace--and an angel did appear to him in a dream.

Being full of grace does not mean one is free of sin. There are many people in the Bible who were sinners that were filled by the Holy Spirit.

Catholics take no interest in Joseph's sex life.

Yet you take offense when someone suggests that Joseph and Mary enjoyed a sacred, God blessed sex life as husband and wife, so yeah, unless you believe Joseph was celibate while married to Mary, you're saying he was an adulterer. That means his sex life is certainly on your radar, yet you carry on as if Mary's celibacy was somehow special, but I hear nothing of Joseph's. Does his sacrifice mean so little to you?

There is some indication that the families of both Mary and Joseph belonged to a community, rare in that day especially among Jews, who took a vow of chastity or virginity.

"Rare in that day". Interesting. Where is the indication in Scripture that Mary and Joseph, duly married and the parents of a family, were in such a community?

John-the-Baptist, who is said to be related to both Mary and Jesus, is accepted as doing so, and he is seen as a prophet.

John the Baptist was specifically called by God as His messenger and gave up many things for that calling. His life was far from comfortable. In fact, Yeshua drew a distinction between John and Himself when He noted that John came to the people NOT eating and drinking and was criticized for doing so, while Yeshua came eating and drinking and was, that's right, criticized for doing so.

 

[Meriweather]

Protestants don't kneel in front of statues, and Mary's statue is not kneeling with you, you are kneeling in front of it.

To be clear: You could have ended at, "Protestants don't kneel." Why is that?

 

[Meriweather]

Yet you take offense

No offense taken, I merely dismiss it as a worthless distraction.

 

[Meriweather]

you're saying he was an adulterer.

That is a preposterous conclusion as I have said nothing of the sort. We don't know if Joseph had other children, or if he cared for other family members. Since he is not mentioned after Jesus was twelve, another possibility is that he was much older than Mary, a widower, and Mary was his second wife and cared for his children as well. But we don't know. It is Protestants who insist (with a poor translation) that Mary and Joseph had other children. So, they are left in peace to believe that. What is interesting is that Protestants will not leave Catholics/Orthodox in peace with a different belief.

 

[Meriweather]

Where is the indication in Scripture

Try researching historical information sometime. Truth/possible confirmation is found in other writings as well.

 

[hadit]

So what? When I am out in nature, and I kneel in front of a tree, am I (according to you) worshiping a tree? Actually, when worshiping at home, I'm often in front of a lion and a lamb. Are you imagining me worshiping them? Listen, hadit, you haven't a clue as to what is in peoples' hearts or their prayers. You have been assured time and again Catholics are merely in prayer, as a community, all of whom are worshiping God, not statues.

On the contrary, Protestants don't have reverence for statues. You see a statue and someone says, "That's Mary". No it's not. No one knows what Mary looks like, number one, and number two, it's just a statue, it's not a person. There's no reason to bow before it, behind it, or beside it. Since it's just a statue, do you ever walk around behind it and kneel in prayer, or would that be kind of odd? If so, why?

In the Catholic Church Jesus if fully present in the Eucharist. We kneel, we worship, the presence of God. If you are like most Protestants, you hold no belief in the True Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Church, yet somehow you imagine statues as somehow, not only being truly present, but truly worshiped.

We know human nature, and human nature is such that yes, for many people, that statue gets elevated to something more than just a statue. Why do you think scams such as specially blessed cloths are so easily pulled? "For just $19.99, we'll send you this handkerchief, blessed by none other than this highly regarded church person, who personally prayed over it. Drape it over your TV set while you're watching the service and we'll send special vibrations that will activate it, just for you". That's exaggerated, of course, but it's human nature to want a physical object to focus on when communing with the divine. Unfortunately, that object can assume unwarranted authority. We avoid that. Let's say it this way, do you feel that your prayers are somehow more powerful in the presence of a statue? Do you feel the need to find a statue when you really, really want God to hear you?

As Catholics, we can only shake our heads at such nonsense, and continue with our own communion with God, not only as an individual, but as a member of the Body of Christ. This Body of Christ includes Mary and Joseph. Catholics have no problem with admiring them.

Admiring is one thing, ascribing them extra-biblical powers and believing they will use those powers for us is something else.

Protestant seem petrified if they admire or honor Mary and Joseph they will slip into worshiping their statues.

We admire many people. We don't, however, think they're going to make us somehow more acceptable to God, or help our prayers be heard more clearly, or anything like that. I greatly admire the pastor of the church I grew up in, but I don't pray to him, or ask him to pray for me now that he's passed on.

If this happens to you, I suggest the following mantra: "It is only a statue, it is only a statue, it is only a statue.." and you will be fine. Catholics are above such nonsense.

Than why the plethora of statues, if that's all they are?