Many paths...one God?

[ding]

Problem is, individual humans undergo a different maturation pattern than ascendant nations.
The individual has recall, learns from experience.

Nations, Peoples may have "institutional memory". BUT !!

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." Hegel

This is why so often important historic lessons must be re-learned.

Whereas I believe the reason history tends to repeat itself is due to archetypes and the saeculum cycle.

As for individuals and/or nations learning from their experiences that all depends on whether or not they have an internal or an external locus of control.

"Disappointment is a function of expectation." psychologist Joy Browne

Barry Farber observed that if poverty caused crime, Calcutta would be one of the most crime-riddled cesspools in the solar system.

IMAO the have-nots don't lament their lot, unless more lavish living is flaunted before them.
Hunter-gatherer, & or nomadic cultures seem spared this, as there's not much wealth gap.

Discontent arises when the hard-working laborers live in conspicuous poverty (squalor), while the idle rich apparently haven't a care.

Yes, disappointment can be a function of expectation. One of my favorite sayings is... I hope for nothing, I fear nothing, I am free. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the norm in a materialistic society.

To borrow a line from Hannibal Lecter... we covet what we see.

Ah!
Yeah. Not the revolution Marx & Engels might have intended. Not in the mainstream U.S. anyway.

Like I said before the same disparities that existed in his day - which was the driving force behind his theory - still exists today. All secular society has really done is switch drugs.

The "revolution" I had in mind is the titanic differences in lifestyle on August 9, 2021, compared to what life was like August 9, 1021.
A millennium ago, life was tough, and short. A 30 year old would have been a sage old man.
In fact, the portions of culture humanity accumulated from that time, & before, came substantially from teenagers.

- Indoor plumbing,
- central heat
- air conditioning
- television (UHD !!!)
- Internet
- vaccines
- 80 year life expectancy
- decades of comfortable, financially secure retirement
- mid-engine 'vettes

- holy cow - !

Wouldn't I love to spend an evening with Benjamin Franklin checking out my ride:

Franklin was a world-class scientist. But things we take utterly for granted would leave him dumbfounded. Understandably so.

All made possible through free enterprise. It's a shame we forgot what made that great. But that goes back to the predictable nature of the saeculum cycle and archetypes. Not to worry though the predictable surprises from normalization of deviance will be there to help correct our course if we are willing to be honest and admit our mistakes.

 

[BreezeWood]

Let me update your understanding. Believers are no more desperate to believe in God and His word, than people are desperate to believe 2+2=4. It is a simple acknowledgement of what is.

Believers note three things about themselves--that they are composed of body, mind, spirit. Communication can/does occur on the spirit(ual) level. No, it cannot be videoed and televised because it uses another reality than the one of physical reality.

People of faith 'test' the Word every day. For example, at an early age I went through each of the beatitudes, carefully applying them to my own life. The same can be done with Commandments, proverbs, etc.

People of faith are at peace with the concept of God and we move on from there.

.

Let me update your understanding. Believers are no more desperate to believe in God and His word, than people are desperate to believe 2+2=4. It is a simple acknowledgement of what is.

.
mathematics is not a belief -

they are not the same, without the christian bible - the christian religion would cease to exist. and only continues to exist through is selfserving congregational adherents and the books continued publication.

 

[Hollie]

You think people should have to? Most people's word is as good as gold. Even when it is, that doesn't mean anyone has to believe what was said.

For example, "Seek and you will find" are words. I thought they were worth the trouble, so off I went and found. If you want this gold, go find it. Don't expect someone to bring it to you any more than you would expect anyone to walk across the US, over Donner Pass, dig night and day, excavate a nugget, and then take the return trip to hand it over to you. The gold is there. If you want it, put your own time and energy into finding it. (By the way, it took me over ten years, which is much longer than it took gold miners to make their trek.)

Yeah, silly me. I think facts matter. Otherwise, I'm not a party to your gold rush.

I make no claims about existence other than its perceivable and it's natural. Consistently, this claim relies on logic and reason to uphold itself. The believer asserts that "Most people's word is as good as gold''. I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. Is everyone expected to simply accept any claim to any unsupported assertion without requiring some justification? Do we accept the claims of Marshall Applewhite about hopping on board an alien spaceship with: ''well, you believe it to be, so it must be true". Thats ridiculous.

 

[sear]

the saeculum cycle.

Not sure what that is. I poked around about it. Didn't find anything that fits.

.
mathematics is not a belief -

I think of it as a discipline, though many have said mathematics is the language of science.

On the margins I consider it dicey.
I can prove with absolute high school validity that 3.999... = 4.0
So what shall we call a scientific discipline that we do not fully believe?

Proof:
3.999... = N
Multiply both sides by 10.
39.999... = 10N
Subtract N from both sides.
36 = 9N
Divide both sides by 9
4 = N

There you have it. PROOF that 3.999... = 4.0

I know.
I'm not buying it either. BUT !! ...

 

[Meriweather]

I make no claims about existence other than its perceivable and it's natural. Consistently, this claim relies on logic and reason to uphold itself. The believer asserts that "Most people's word is as good as gold''. I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. Is everyone expected to simply accept any claim to any unsupported assertion without requiring some justification? Do we accept the claims of Marshall Applewhite about hopping on board an alien spaceship with: ''well, you believe it to be, so it must be true". Thats ridiculous.

Nice rush to the fringe, but keep in mind pointing to the fringe is a poor way to make a point.

People do have experiences of God that are worth listening to. This does make us unaware of attention seekers or other less supernatural possibilities.

I get that some are loathe to explore anything that cannot be explained by the physical realm. That's okay. There is enough here to keep everyone happy. Some have a wish to explore beyond; I see no need for others to discourage such exploration.

John Dewey noted, "Every great advance in science has issued from a new audacity of. imagination."

 

[Hollie]

Nice rush to the fringe, but keep in mind pointing to the fringe is a poor way to make a point.

People do have experiences of God that are worth listening to. This does make us unaware of attention seekers or other less supernatural possibilities.

I get that some are loathe to explore anything that cannot be explained by the physical realm. That's okay. There is enough here to keep everyone happy. Some have a wish to explore beyond; I see no need for others to discourage such exploration.

John Dewey noted, "Every great advance in science has issued from a new audacity of. imagination."

Nice sidestep but what is fringe about space aliens vs. talking snakes, dead people coming back to life and Arks cruising the seas?

I get that most people inherent the gods of their familial structure and their geographic location but are loathe to accept space alien gods or perhaps the extant Greek gods.

Most people aren't loathe to explore supernatural realms, it's just a bit difficult to accept ''feelings'' in place of reason and rationality.

And why is Marshall Applewhite ''fringe''? Why were his experiences any less valid than yours? Are you loathe to explore something that cannot be explained by a physical realm?

 

[BreezeWood]

Not sure what that is. I poked around about it. Didn't find anything that fits.

I think of it as a discipline, though many have said mathematics is the language of science.

On the margins I consider it dicey.
I can prove with absolute high school validity that 3.999... = 4.0
So what shall we call a scientific discipline that we do not fully believe?

Proof:
3.999... = N
Multiply both sides by 10.
39.999... = 10N
Subtract N from both sides.
36 = 9N
Divide both sides by 9
4 = N

There you have it. PROOF that 3.999... = 4.0

I know.
I'm not buying it either. BUT !! ...

.

Let me update your understanding. Believers are no more desperate to believe in God and His word, than people are desperate to believe 2+2=4. It is a simple acknowledgement of what is.

mathematics is not a belief -

I think of it as a discipline, though many have said mathematics is the language of science.

There you have it. PROOF that 3.999... = 4.0

.
I agree there is a certain amount of belief to the extremities of math - in reference to their original quote though there is a marked distinction: 2+2 = 4 in base is eternal - their "religion" on the other hand - will only lasts as long as they publish their single source - christian bible. what they believe - eventually will disappear.

 

[Meriweather]

Nice sidestep

Hopefully a nice sidestep back to the topic of many paths, One God. As I was saying, many people have had experiences of God--people from many nations, many cultures, many families. They are worth listening to.

 

[ding]

Subtract N from both sides.
36 = 9N

Nice try, but I see what you did there. You did not treat each side equally when you used 3.999 on one side and N on the other side. If you are going to subtract N from both sides you must either use the 3.999 value on both sides or the variable N on both sides. You can't use 3.999 on one side and N on the other side.

39.999 - 3.999 = 10N - 3.999
36 = 10N -3.999
add 3.999 to both sides
39.999 = 10N
divide both sides by 10
3.999 = N

39.999 - 3.999 = 10N - 3.999 is valid
39.999 - N = 10N -N is valid
39.999 - 3.999 = 10N - N is not valid.

3.9999 ≠ 4

 

[Dadoalex]

The phrase religion is the opiate of the masses means it dulls the pain of the people.

Socialism has usurped Christian values for the same reason.

Socialism is a religion. Ergo socialism is the new opiate of the masses.

"Opiate of the masses "
MEANS
Specifically that religion is used to control the masses in order to protect the upper classes.

Any other "definition" is meant to disguise to original inent.

 

[sear]

Nice try, but I see what you did there. You did not treat each side equally when you used 3.999 on one side and N on the other side. If you are going to subtract N from both sides you must either use the 3.999 value on both sides or the variable N on both sides. You can't use 3.999 on one side and N on the other side.

39.999 - 3.999 = 10N - 3.999
36 = 10N -3.999
add 3.999 to both sides
39.999 = 10N
divide both sides by 10
3.999 = N

39.999 - 3.999 = 10N - 3.999 is valid
39.999 - N = 10N -N is valid
39.999 - 3.999 = 10N - N is not valid.

3.9999 ≠ 4

Thanks.
I'm not an algebra teacher. BUT !!
There surely is one (or will be when school re-starts) at your local high school.
I'll never convince you, wouldn't try.
But I've discussed this proof with teachers at high school, and college. Each has assured me it's a valid proof, without error.

Please don't take my word for it. Get thee to any algebra teacher. Ask them to show you the error in it. If they tell you what they told me, they'll tell you there is no flaw in it. 3.999... = 4.
Please don't infer more than I imply. I'm not asking you for money, or for your vote.
I'm sharing with you information that is capable in some cases of causing some formerly comfortable persons to reconsider their comfort.

 

[ding]

"Opiate of the masses "
MEANS
Specifically that religion is used to control the masses in order to protect the upper classes.

Any other "definition" is meant to disguise to original inent.

Wrong. The phrase religion is the opiate of the masses means it dulls the pain of the people. Socialism has usurped Christian values for the same reason. Socialism is a religion. Ergo socialism is the new opiate of the masses.

Socialism is your opiate.

 

[sear]

.I agree there is a certain amount of belief to the extremities of math - in reference to their original quote though there is a marked distinction: 2+2 = 4 in base is eternal - their "religion" on the other hand - will only lasts as long as they publish their single source - christian bible. what they believe - eventually will disappear.

Many over-sell their beliefs, perhaps their effort to drown out their own doubts.
So Christianity dies out when the last Christian dies. Fine.
That doesn't mean many humans have lived lives they perceive as enriched by it.

Good enough for me.

 

[ding]

Thanks.
I'm not an algebra teacher. BUT !!
There surely is one (or will be when school re-starts) at your local high school.
I'll never convince you, wouldn't try.
But I've discussed this proof with teachers at high school, and college. Each has assured me it's a valid proof, without error.

Please don't take my word for it. Get thee to any algebra teacher. Ask them to show you the error in it. If they tell you what they told me, they'll tell you there is no flaw in it. 3.999... = 4.
Please don't infer more than I imply. I'm not asking you for money, or for your vote.
I'm sharing with you information that is capable in some cases of causing some formerly comfortable persons to reconsider their comfort.

No one who understands algebra should ever miss an attempt to subvert the rules of algebra. You can't subtract 1N from a constant even if a value is substituted for it unless you make that exact same substitution on the other side of the equation. Any one who says otherwise is an idiot. Because 4.0 does not equal 3.9 and any proof that proved it did must by definition be incorrect.

I just showed you how it was incorrect.

You don't need to use a faulty example to know that not everyone believes the objective truth about all things.

 

[BreezeWood]

Many over-sell their beliefs, perhaps their effort to drown out their own doubts.
So Christianity dies out when the last Christian dies. Fine.
That doesn't mean many humans have lived lives they perceive as enriched by it.

Good enough for me.

.
their is no christian, it's only a book - when the book disappears so will christianity.

 

[sear]

a) I just showed you how it was incorrect.

b) You don't need to use a faulty example to know that not everyone believes the objective truth about all things.

a) You explained why you thought so. That proves we have a disagreement. It does not prove you are correct. The pro's I've consulted validated it.

b) To the contrary. We never need to use a faulty example. It's a fundamental of the non-reciprocity of lying vs truth-telling.
- A person that has lied all his life can utter one factually true statement before he dies. It does not render him truthful. BUT !!
- A person that has been honest his entire life can utter one falsehood. Once he's uttered that falsehood, he's a liar.
It's the non-reciprocity of lying. Telling one truth does not make one truthful. But even just one lie, and he's a liar evermore.

.
their is no christian, it's only a book - when the book disappears so will christianity.

I didn't mean to dismiss the importance of NT.
Only to accord due credit to Christian believers devout enough to have memorized most or some of the Holy Bible.
Perhaps Christianity hasn't expired until both of them are gone.

No rush.

 

[ding]

a) You explained why you thought so. That proves we have a disagreement. It does not prove you are correct. The pro's I've consulted validated it.

b) To the contrary. We never need to use a faulty example. It's a fundamental of the non-reciprocity of lying vs truth-telling.
- A person that has lied all his life can utter one factually true statement before he dies. It does not render him truthful. BUT !!
- A person that has been honest his entire life can utter one falsehood. Once he's uttered that falsehood, he's a liar.
It's the non-reciprocity of lying. Telling one truth does not make one truthful. But even just one lie, and he's a liar evermore.

I didn't mean to dismiss the importance of NT.
Only to accord due credit to Christian believers devout enough to have memorized most or some of the Holy Bible.
Perhaps Christianity hasn't expired until both of them are gone.

No rush.

It should be obvious the algebra was faulty in your example when you proved that 3.999 equals 4. The people who said 3.999 equals 4 are idiots and don't understand algebra.

I don't care if you dismiss the importance of the NT. Couldn't care less. You think 3.999 equals 4.

 

[BreezeWood]

a) You explained why you thought so. That proves we have a disagreement. It does not prove you are correct. The pro's I've consulted validated it.

b) To the contrary. We never need to use a faulty example. It's a fundamental of the non-reciprocity of lying vs truth-telling.
- A person that has lied all his life can utter one factually true statement before he dies. It does not render him truthful. BUT !!
- A person that has been honest his entire life can utter one falsehood. Once he's uttered that falsehood, he's a liar.
It's the non-reciprocity of lying. Telling one truth does not make one truthful. But even just one lie, and he's a liar evermore.

I didn't mean to dismiss the importance of NT.
Only to accord due credit to Christian believers devout enough to have memorized most or some of the Holy Bible.
Perhaps Christianity hasn't expired until both of them are gone.

No rush.

.

I didn't mean to dismiss the importance of NT.
Only to accord due credit to Christian believers devout enough to have memorized most or some of the Holy Bible.
Perhaps Christianity hasn't expired until both of them are gone.

.
no, the motivation to chose fallacy is the issue not the fallacy.

credit due when justice is rendered is what is required to bring fruition to the events of the 1st century - if they are waiting, the religious itinerant that is what they are waiting for - not christians.

 

[sear]

It should be obvious the algebra was faulty in your example when you proved that 3.999 equals 4.

Precisely.
And since it is called a "proof", it also undermines, or at least raises serious unanswered questions about the meaning of the word "proof".

The people who said 3.999 equals 4 are idiots and don't understand algebra.

It's more complicated than that.

I don't care if you dismiss the importance of the NT.

I don't. Never have.
Instead I extend the locus of Christianity beyond Christian scripture. IMHO Christendom includes Christians. Anyone that challenges that can take it up with Christians. I am not Christian. Never have been.

.no, the motivation to chose fallacy is the issue not the fallacy.

In at least some cases, correct. We can at least accept it as a premise in a syllogism, as an analytical tool.
That's a somewhat circular reason for my rejecting fallacy. And I find I cannot reject fallacy without either embracing the opposite / reciprocal of fallacy, or at least demonstrate / affirm my agnosticism. I take no shame in acknowledging my ignorance in it. Nor do I accept shame for acknowledging my own suspicions / preferences.

.no, the motivation to chose fallacy is the issue not the fallacy.

In theology I distinguish between accepting fallacy knowingly, vs accepting fallacy unknowingly, or without proof or substantial evidence.

 

[ding]

It's more complicated than that.

It isn't. I even showed you how you induced the error.