Many paths...one God?

[Meriweather]

I never said anything about consequences but the wrath of the god of the bible was vengeful.

If wiping people out isn't vengeful I don't know what is.

Why do you blame God for the flood, the plagues, the Babylonians? Seriously. What is the reason you blame God alone for all of these?

The flood was a natural disaster. The ten plagues were also natural disasters, and from what history and science are able to tell us, happened over generations. At the time of the Babylonians the Jews were divided in at least two ways--by area, by class, They had weakened themselves from within.

Why the dogged insistence of blaming God?

 

[Blues Man]

Why do you blame God for the flood, the plagues, the Babylonians? Seriously. What is the reason you blame God alone for all of these?

The flood was a natural disaster. The ten plagues were also natural disasters, and from what history and science are able to tell us, happened over generations. At the time of the Babylonians the Jews were divided in at least two ways--by area, by class, They had weakened themselves from within.

Why the dogged insistence of blaming God?

Because the bible, the very word of your god states that those things were caused by him for the purpose of retribution.

Wrath by definition is vengeful retribution.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't know what definition of wrath you are using

but by definition wrath is vindictive and vengeful

That is today's definition. As I mentioned in previous posts, there have been variations over the centuries. And, of course there is the fact the word didn't even come into play until thousands of years after the Hebrew "nostrils flared". We know God was greatly disturbed by unjust behavior.

Again, serious question: Why so doggedly determined to see God as vindictive and vengeful, waving away any consideration to the behavior that was causing the emotion?

 

[Blues Man]

That is today's definition. As I mentioned in previous posts, there have been variations over the centuries. And, of course there is the fact the word didn't even come into play until thousands of years after the Hebrew "nostrils flared". We know God was greatly disturbed by unjust behavior.

Again, serious question: Why so doggedly determined to see God as vindictive and vengeful, waving away any consideration to the behavior that was causing the emotion?

OK so all the words in the bible you use have different definitions.

Why don't you publish your own dictionary so we can at least know what these definitions are supposed to be.

And why is a god subject to mere human emotion? Isn't he supposed to be all knowing etc so none of the shit people did should have been a surprise to him.

 

[Meriweather]

Because the bible, the very word of your god states that those things were caused by him for the purpose of retribution.

Wrath by definition is vengeful retribution.

Once again, to come to this conclusion, one must use subjective, modern language from a Western perspective. A more accurate description are parents with a teen who delights in putting a toe over the line--more if he thinks he can get away with it.

Parents who are disturbed by this are not necessarily exhibiting vengeful anger. When their child's behavior ends in arrest and Juvenile Hall, this is not considered wrathful vengeance, but consequences of the behavior that disturbed them.

In the same way, the behavior we see every time God is disturbed, it is over extremely poor behavior and He knows consequences will follow--not brought on by Him, but by their own behavior. They have been weakening themselves.

 

[Meriweather]

OK so all the words in the bible you use have different definitions.

Why don't you publish your own dictionary so we can at least know what these definitions are supposed to be.

Grin. You want me to write a dictionary for you? What's wrong with you doing the same research I did if what I have presented here is unworthy of acceptance?

Why are you settling on modern English when most of the Bible was written in Hebrew? Another quirk of mine is the etymology of the English language. Etymology has probably bored any number of people to tears, but it roots and etymology have always fascinated me.

Seriously, you readily dismiss all the information I have presented in discussion form, but if I wrote a dictionary, you would give me credence? I suspect, you would never even order the book, let alone open it.
And, who knows, perhaps a Hebrew scholar already has written such a dictionary.

 

[Meriweather]

And why is a god subject to mere human emotion? Isn't he supposed to be all knowing etc so none of the shit people did should have been a surprise to him.

God is spirit, meaning he doesn't have nostrils, a right hand, etc. As for emotion--we also understand these will be different for God than for us. The Bible was written for humans not the Supreme Being, so authors use body parts and emotions humans to which humans can relate. We know His emotions will be different from ours, but the authors wrote not so God would understand, but that humans might be given an understanding.

I think of it this way. Animals have emotions. We also know they are different from ours. For example, lock your wife and your dog in the trunk of your car for several minutes. When you open the trunk, observe which one is happy to see you and which one is irate.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Religion fascinates me, in part because there are so many common threads in all the faiths. Perhaps we are like the tale of the blind man and tbe elephant, each of us only able to discern a small portion of what is God. For some, we need an intermediary... like a prophet to show us a path. For others, it is a self-paced journey.

For commonalities...we all know the Golden Rule, and all religions seem to have some version of this. It makes sense, if we followed it, we would be a better society.

But another commonality exists that is interesting: the acquisition of forbidden knowledge.

In some, this is represented by the acquisition of fire (which in actuality was a major turning point in human development. The Greek Promethius defied Zeus and stole fire to give to man. Across the world, a continent away, Coyote, Rabbit and Crow stoke the fire.

For the Abrahamic faiths, it was Eve and the Apple...which you have to admit kind of sucks, forever blaming Woman for Man’s inability to control himself.

In all cases though...there is a punishment for loss of innocence and it usually involves a seperation from the divine even as it separates humanity from his fellow animals.

Food for thought.

I dont accept the poison you're serving

 

[Carl in Michigan]

God is spirit, meaning he doesn't have nostrils, a right hand, etc

He says He does. We are created in His likeness.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I think of it this way. Animals have emotions. We also know they are different from ours

They are the same. Animals are just more tolerant of your evil

 

[Hollie]

Why do you blame God for the flood, the plagues, the Babylonians? Seriously. What is the reason you blame God alone for all of these?

The flood was a natural disaster. The ten plagues were also natural disasters, and from what history and science are able to tell us, happened over generations. At the time of the Babylonians the Jews were divided in at least two ways--by area, by class, They had weakened themselves from within.

Why the dogged insistence of blaming God?

There's a rather glaring and obvious contradiction there. If the gods are responsible for all of creation, then there is no such thing as a ''natural disaster''. All of the conditions which create floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc., were put in place by the gods. We can either attribute that to poor ''design'' on the part of the gods or we can attribute natural disasters to natural forces at work, unattended to by any of the gods.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

There's a rather glaring and obvious contradiction there. If the gods are responsible for all of creation

What "gods"????
You atheists -- especially silly women -- will acknowledge ANY god but the Creator.

That's why silly women are so easily led to wicca, nature worship and evey other bit of spiritual nonsense.

But you are right that God -- YHVH -- was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for those things Meriweather mentioned.

You are wrong, however, to believe YHVH is responsible for every natural disaster that takes place. He was not personally responsible for the rain I got last night

 

[Hollie]

What "gods"????
You atheists -- especially silly women -- will acknowledge ANY god but the Creator.

That's why silly women are so easily led to wicca, nature worship and evey other bit of spiritual nonsense.

But you are right that God -- YHVH -- was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for those things Meriweather mentioned.

You are wrong, however, to believe YHVH is responsible for every natural disaster that takes place. He was not personally responsible for the rain I got last night

Sorry about a mere female bruising anyone's tender sensibilities. Can we all say a collective, "awwww, poor gods who feel slighted"?

However, aside from claims to triune gods, there are lots of other gods / creators / Big Kabunas who are just as "real" as the Christian gods.

 

[Meriweather]

There's a rather glaring and obvious contradiction there. If the gods are responsible for all of creation, then there is no such thing as a ''natural disaster''. All of the conditions which create floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc., were put in place by the gods. We can either attribute that to poor ''design'' on the part of the gods or we can attribute natural disasters to natural forces at work, unattended to by any of the gods.

Yes, that was addressed, and how ancient man thought. Islam believes that one cannot move a finger without this being the will of God. The fact that the Twin Towers fell made it the will of God...and the reason the Pentagon and Capitol survived was by the will of God. Also covered is that God, in someway, kills us all--natural disaster, illness, old age, etc--but in Western civilization we usually stop with, "S/he died of a heart attack or in a hurricane" instead of launching over that and saying, "God killed her/him."

People of faith believe that God is Creator and that the physical world is different/has different scientific laws than the spiritual realm.

 

[ding]

Sorry about a mere female bruising anyone's tender sensibilities. Can we all say a collective, "awwww, poor gods who feel slighted"?

However, aside from claims to triune gods, there are lots of other gods / creators / Big Kabunas who are just as "real" as the Christian gods.

I wouldn't be a polytheist either, Hollie.

 

[Hollie]

Yes, that was addressed, and how ancient man thought. Islam believes that one cannot move a finger without this being the will of God. The fact that the Twin Towers fell made it the will of God...and the reason the Pentagon and Capitol survived was by the will of God. Also covered is that God, in someway, kills us all--natural disaster, illness, old age, etc--but in Western civilization we usually stop with, "S/he died of a heart attack or in a hurricane" instead of launching over that and saying, "God killed her/him."

People of faith believe that God is Creator and that the physical world is different/has different scientific laws than the spiritual realm.

I'm not so sure it was addressed. Whether “Islam believes that one cannot move a finger without this being the will of God”, is only different by degree from believing that the hand of the gods save (some) people from death in horrible car crashes while others die. I suppose that speaks to your statement that, “God, in someway, kills us all--natural disaster, illness, old age, etc.” I must disagree that the gods have a plan for how they will eventually kill you or me. You may believe that the gods randomly kill us or perhaps, they have a plan in place. Do the gods kill some people purposely, sometimes in horrible ways for a reason? If you then choose to add the human applied attributes of "just and loving" to the gods, then you have just eviscerated your entire argument by making the terms precisely meaningless.


We know that humans are motivated by reasons, purposes and justifications because we experience them everyday. But to attribute “reasons, purposes and justifications” to gods who may or may not exist is probably no more than mere projection.

We do not ask “why” rocks fall from a mountainside and crush a cars, we ask “how” they fall. This is different from a rock deliberately thrown from a hillside by the gods. In that case, asking “why” is a reasonable exercise. So, before you can start asking “why” about any event, you must determine whether there was an intentional actor initiating the event. Otherwise, to ask “why” is futile, since the answer often really is “it just is.”

I care first whether or not it is reasonable to ask the question in the first place. And I also care whether or not the answers you provide to the "why" questions you ask are defensible in the face of the evidence. One can only assume that if your answers (whatever their source) are true then they should be reconcilable with the "how" questions and answers provided by science. If they are not, then we have rather strong evidence that your answer to the "why" question is in error.

As to any of the gods being creators of the natural world, that is already addressed. There is nothing natural about a supernaturally created existence. The only genuine order in the cosmos that we have evidence for is invariant natural law. There is no reason to suspect for a second that it derives from anything external. It operates entirely self sufficiently, and pretty much seems to eliminate any need for oversight... as it is invariant. And... unlike Allah, Jesus, holy spirits, Vishnu, Krishna, whatever, ... we actually have evidence that it exists. No pre-planned or daily decisions by the gods necessary as to who gets whacked in a car crash, shot in the head by a mugger or dies from the Wuhan virus.

 

[Dadoalex]

Nope. That’s incorrect.

As I said, interpret as you wish. I will stick with the recognized interpretations rather than the Tiny Minded one.

 

[buttercup]

Religion fascinates me, in part because there are so many common threads in all the faiths. Perhaps we are like the tale of the blind man and tbe elephant, each of us only able to discern a small portion of what is God. For some, we need an intermediary... like a prophet to show us a path. For others, it is a self-paced journey.

I agree that there are some common threads in all faiths, but if we look at the major world religions, at their core they teach very different things about God and the way to God / salvation.

I'll get back to that point a little later to explain why I believe that is important.

For commonalities...we all know the Golden Rule, and all religions seem to have some version of this. It makes sense, if we followed it, we would be a better society.

Yes, I definitely agree that we would be a better society if people followed the Golden Rule, but how many people actually follow it? How many people actually live their life treating others as they would like others to treat them, and not doing things to others that they wouldn't want done to them?

One of the many reasons why I believe in Christianity is because what I can see with my own eyes about this world and human nature matches with what the Bible says. The Bible says that we all fall short, we all miss the mark.

It also says that ultimately the only standard that matters is God's, and God's standard is perfection. And that is precisely why everyone needs God, because only with God's forgiveness and spiritual birth can we be reconciled to God, become the person we were truly meant to be, and attain salvation.

But another commonality exists that is interesting: the acquisition of forbidden knowledge.

In some, this is represented by the acquisition of fire (which in actuality was a major turning point in human development. The Greek Promethius defied Zeus and stole fire to give to man. Across the world, a continent away, Coyote, Rabbit and Crow stoke the fire.

For the Abrahamic faiths, it was Eve and the Apple...which you have to admit kind of sucks, forever blaming Woman for Man’s inability to control himself.

In all cases though...there is a punishment for loss of innocence and it usually involves a seperation from the divine even as it separates humanity from his fellow animals.

Food for thought.

OK, there are some commonalities, but you seem to be ignoring something far bigger and more important.

As someone else said early on in the thread, it is illogical to say that all religions are true or that all religions lead to God. (if by "lead to God" you mean reconciliation with God or going to heaven) because the world religions teach very different things about God and the way to God.

One of the most basic laws of logic, the law of non-contradiction, states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense.

So if you have two religions that are saying diametrically opposed things about God, then obviously they both can't be true, one of them must be true and one of them must be false. OR they can both can be false, but they both can't be true.

As a few others have stated, the Bible makes it very clear that there is one way to God, and this is what Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

What Jesus said actually goes along with the nature of truth itself. Truth, by nature, excludes what is false.

For example, 2+2 = 4. We can't say "oh I think 2+2 is whatever we want it to be!" We can believe that if we want, but we would only be shooting ourselves in the foot because it is not the truth. And truth is not dependent on us at all, truth simply is what it is. That is why it's so important to find the truth and follow it.

BTW, here is a good video on this topic. It's less than five minutes so for anyone who is interested in this topic, I hope you watch it!

 

[Meriweather]

You may believe that the gods randomly kill us or perhaps, they have a plan in place.

In fact, I do not.

To clarify: The discussion was about the accusation that God vengefully kills. I pointed out it was natural disasters or in the case of the Babylonians, a war between nations--not God sending an army to kill. Then came the discussion that God, as creator, is responsible for all deaths no matter how they come about, because everything is allowed solely by the will of God.

I pointed out that in modern times, we do not rule any death as an act of God, but assign the cause of death to the direct cause of death, be it natural disaster, illness, accident, old age, etc.

Any further questions?

 

[Hollie]

In fact, I do not.

To clarify: The discussion was about the accusation that God vengefully kills. I pointed out it was natural disasters or in the case of the Babylonians, a war between nations--not God sending an army to kill. Then came the discussion that God, as creator, is responsible for all deaths no matter how they come about, because everything is allowed solely by the will of God.

I pointed out that in modern times, we do not rule any death as an act of God, but assign the cause of death to the direct cause of death, be it natural disaster, illness, accident, old age, etc.

Any further questions?

Yes. Why are the gods such incompetent designers? Didn't they know that their godly designed rotation and tilt of the planet along with convection currents would cause tornadoes and hurricanes?