Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God. Here's why:

Mashmont

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Jan 17, 2022
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One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.
 
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One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

1) The Bible says all humans are sinful, right?

2) Who decides what is "moral"?

3) Plenty of religious people are "immoral".
 
1) The Bible says all humans are sinful, right?

2) Who decides what is "moral"?

3) Plenty of religious people are "immoral".
People who embrace immorality without fighting it fall more into the irreligious category which is pretty much the same as atheism in practice. It will lead them to hell just the same.
 
People who embrace immorality without fighting it fall more into the irreligious category which is pretty much the same as atheism in practice. It will lead them to hell just the same.

What is "immorality"?
 
What you say is true, but that doesn't change the point of my OP.

You don't have to change anything!

The truth remains all the same apart from our personal opinions.

It is what is! :)
 
One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.
The problem with your argument is that it relies on scripture to back it up. You need to step outside what the Bible says and explain it in real life terms if you want anybody outside your religion to take you seriously.

For example. Somebody can believe in a higher power, not god from the Bible, and also the golden rule. They can live a very happy and moral and genuine life that way.

The fact that Christianity holds the fear of hell over their followers heads is proof enough for me that the religion is man made and centered around power. I’ll find my God elsewhere
 
The problem with your argument is that it relies on scripture to back it up. You need to step outside what the Bible says and explain it in real life terms if you want anybody outside your religion to take you seriously.

For example. Somebody can believe in a higher power, not god from the Bible, and also the golden rule. They can live a very happy and moral and genuine life that way.

The fact that Christianity holds the fear of hell over their followers heads is proof enough for me that the religion is man made and centered around power. I’ll find my God elsewhere
A sawbuck says you don't believe in or follow all the rules listed in the Galatians passage. And if you don't, it doesn't matter what else you think or do.
 
The fact that Christianity holds the fear of hell over their followers heads is proof enough for me that the religion is man made and centered around power. I’ll find my God elsewhere
I am Catholic. Fear of hell has never been held over us. In my lifetime, I have only heard priests and sisters address hell about four times--and never as a threat. Hell is defined as being a part from God and for people who choose to be separated from God.

Catholic homilies focus not on hell, but on Jesus' teachings about loving God and loving/getting along with others. He was adamant that sins are forgiven, repentance (turning away) from sin and to God. He taught about discerning the will of God and following it.

So...since fear of hell is not being held over you, were there other reasons to reject religion or formal community worship?
 
In fact, the philosophy of Objectivism (which rejects supernatural dieties) is one that specifically rejects moral relativism and its precepts are quite specific.
Objectivism irrationally holds that the universe has always existed against the imperatives of logic and mathematics, and the first principles of ontology. Moreover, in denying the existence of any universally absolute ground for the imperatives of logic and morality will invariably give way to relativism in practice.
 
A sawbuck says you don't believe in or follow all the rules listed in the Galatians passage. And if you don't, it doesn't matter what else you think or do.
For the sake of this debate it does matter. you can’t use a Bible passage to back up the validity of a moral/religious argument. It is meaningless to those that do not believe in the accuracy of the document
 

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