Loving goodness of god's grace

[Spare_change]

Spoken by an ignorant and unsaved soul desperate in his futile search for any warped or twisted little piece of misinformation in order to try to justify his horrendous personal decision to ignore and disdain God.

You were given a choice - you have chosen wrongly. And, like elections, your choice has consequences.

Hehe. Perhaps YOU'VE chosen wrongly. After all, you should remember that no matter WHICH religious delusion you happen to embrace, most of the world thinks you're wrong.

I'm comfortable with that.

The question on the table is ... why aren't YOU comfortable with the choice YOU made? Why do you constantly seek validation?

 

[Paladin_]

I'm comfortable with that.

The question on the table is ... why aren't YOU comfortable with the choice YOU made? Why do you constantly seek validation?

I'm quite comfortable with the "choice" I made -- though it really wasn't a "choice" (ultimately, we don't really "choose" what we believe).

And I'm not seeking "validation." I'm seeking to break through that brick wall of denial behind which you're ensconced. I'm trying to make you see that, in ANY other circumstances, a moral human being would be HORRIFIED at the idea of another person suffering for eternity. Only a sociopath would delight in such a notion.

But I don't believe you're a sociopath. I suspect you -- like most people -- are an otherwise good person whose mind and heart have been so twisted and perverted by a malignant and insidious religious philosophy that you can't even see it.

 

[ding]

Why did Adam and Eve hide when they heard God coming? Because they knew they had done wrong.

And what did they say to God when He asked them if they ate the apple?

Adam, did you eat the apple? The woman you made gave it to me.

Eve, did you eat the apple? The serpent deceived me.

You probably don't realize the message Christ was teaching either. It is related to this concept as well. Tremendous wisdom is in the Bible for those who seek it. Wisdom is not given to just any jack-a-nape.

Why did Adam and Eve hide when they heard Yahweh coming? Read the story. They hid because they were afraid.

Now I have some questions for you (and I don't really expect you to answer them. Just ponder them) -- Why did Yahweh pretend not to know where they were? Why did he include the tree in the Garden in the first place? Why did he leave them alone with the serpent (who was inexplicably given the gift of speech), who he KNEW would corrupt them? Why did he lie to Adam when he told him he would die on the day he ate from the tree (when he lived another 930 years)?

Incidentally, while I'm STILL waiting for someone to offer a "proper" context to explain all the biblical evil I mentioned before, I've recalled a couple more: slavery (including sexual slavery) and human sacrifice.

So, just to update the Yahweh's count of evils, we now have slavery, human sacrifice, planetary ecocide (including countless innocent human beings and ignorant animals), genocide of entire cultures (making especially certain not to miss any babies or fetuses in the womb), dashing infants' heads against rocks, threatening to starve people to the point where they'll be forced to eat their children, and dooming billions to an eternity of torment in Hell, simply because they were born into the wrong faith.

Why were they afraid? Did they know they had done something wrong?

 

[Mudda]

Why did Adam and Eve hide when they heard God coming? Because they knew they had done wrong.

And what did they say to God when He asked them if they ate the apple?

Adam, did you eat the apple? The woman you made gave it to me.

Eve, did you eat the apple? The serpent deceived me.

You probably don't realize the message Christ was teaching either. It is related to this concept as well. Tremendous wisdom is in the Bible for those who seek it. Wisdom is not given to just any jack-a-nape.

Why did Adam and Eve hide when they heard Yahweh coming? Read the story. They hid because they were afraid.

Now I have some questions for you (and I don't really expect you to answer them. Just ponder them) -- Why did Yahweh pretend not to know where they were? Why did he include the tree in the Garden in the first place? Why did he leave them alone with the serpent (who was inexplicably given the gift of speech), who he KNEW would corrupt them? Why did he lie to Adam when he told him he would die on the day he ate from the tree (when he lived another 930 years)?

Incidentally, while I'm STILL waiting for someone to offer a "proper" context to explain all the biblical evil I mentioned before, I've recalled a couple more: slavery (including sexual slavery) and human sacrifice.

So, just to update the Yahweh's count of evils, we now have slavery, human sacrifice, planetary ecocide (including countless innocent human beings and ignorant animals), genocide of entire cultures (making especially certain not to miss any babies or fetuses in the womb), dashing infants' heads against rocks, threatening to starve people to the point where they'll be forced to eat their children, and dooming billions to an eternity of torment in Hell, simply because they were born into the wrong faith.

Why were they afraid? Did they know they had done something wrong?

They were afraid of GayGod who was looking for them to throw them out of HomoHeaven for having hetero sex.

 

[RodISHI]

Is it really that hard for you to read and comprehend what I already wrote to answer your inquiries?

A mother justifies her children does she not? It is written that she does.

And once again I have already gave you the answers in multiple post but you seem to ignore that or you are simply to blind in your own sin to see it that you still will not or cannot answer my questions.

I really wouldn't mind in the least being proven wrong if in the process Jesus is proven right.... to the greater glory of God and all that..

Thats the difference between us.

Does't it give you even a millisecond of pause that you might have been misled by an indwelling spirit of deception to bring the name of Jesus into disrepute even knowing that 2000 years of so called inspired testimony from what you have come to believe is a holy spirit has not fulfilled even one of the things that Jesus said that the Spirit of truth would be sent by God to do?

Even though the verifiable effect of that testimony has been that the Jewish people have been convinced that Jesus was wrong and they were always right to reject him as a false prophet?

The exact opposite of what the holy spirit would be sent by God to do?





You can't win with a losing hand even if you believe that you can really really hard, peter pan...

Again you speak through your own precepts. I have not said anywhere that Jesus is wrong but did in fact point out that there is a difference between carnal beliefs and those taught by the spirit. You seem to be attempting to paint me with your brush and paint.

You keep talking about Jewish people and you appear to attempt to paint all Jews with your brush too with 'your own words'.

No, The Jewish people as a whole and as a religion believe that Jesus was a failed false messiah, probably delusional, definitely irrelevant. They have been convinced of this mostly because of how you Christians, inspired by your holy ghost and diverted from sanity by superstitious archaic lore have represented him and because of the irrational claims you make about him..

Ask around.

If you don't believe me you can even look it up.


Then maybe you will see how what you believe is the holy ghost cannot possibly be the being that Jesus said would vindicate, glorify, and prove him right, and most definitely is not holy.

Actually I have talked with and know many who were raised Jewish that believe in he New Testament also. For those who haven't gotten there yet I hold out hope they will eventually come around so they can assist in correcting those who are still spiritually babes in the learning process in all. People can only teach to the level of the understanding that they have been given. If something has not been revealed to anyone as an individual I am certain that in time that they will be corrected if they are seeking the truth. In the meantime the Lord uses many ways to call forth his people. Even Jesus desired that they believe in something even if it was a piece or a portion. The one thing he hates the most about his job when I asked him was euthanasia (choose life). You may be able to that like the women who claimed to be the real mother of the same child who went before king Solomon.

Any Jew that sets aside divine law, worships Jesus as God, and seek the guidance of a ghost is an apostate, a traitor as confused and lost to every other devout Jew as any gentile who was breastfed by the whore of babylon and raised since birth to adopt the beliefs and imitate the ways of unclean creatures..

Ask any religious Jew if it is even possible that any spirit that inspires another Jew to abandon their beliefs and principles and worship a human being is inspiration from a holy spirit of God or an unholy spirit of deception and error.

I hate to tell you this, but you will be waiting for the Jewish people as a whole to abandon divine law and worship Jesus as a matter of religious devotion for as long as you will be waiting for Jesus to float down from the sky.

Don't take it too hard, they will be waiting for just as long for some other Messiah....

What a conundrum the people of this world have gotten themselves into wallowing in the valley of decision.

Its time for truth or consequences.

Given the facts, what do you see as the only right course to take?



Do you really want to risk spending another second much less another decade going through life like a brute beast living out in the open with your face to the ground grazing on wild grass without even enough sense to look up, watch for predators, or get out of the rain?


You have been given a clear choice between life and death.

Choose life and live.

Given the facts via the spirit of truth I made my choice long ago I will stick with what the Lord has shown me via the holy spirit or holy host whichever of the terms are being used at the time but you seem to be too wrapped up in your own to hear what is being said to you.

It is a shame that churches and those who walk by their own inclinations haven't got it yet but again I am confident it all happens in my Lord's timing, not yours or mine. Eventually the Lord's people will all go through the steps as outlined in the holy scriptures that were passed down through the ages. It is after all written in our hearts. The Lord rules the hearts of men (those spirits install within a Man -male and female varieties- when the human was given breath).

I'm quite comfortable with the "choice" I made -- though it really wasn't a "choice" (ultimately, we don't really "choose" what we believe).

What a profound statement! We may choose certain things and choices may lead to consequences but what we believe ultimately may be something totally different than what we thought when we walked to the carnal flesh and not in the spirit.

Many humans think they are the ones who choose God but in fact it is that spirit in us that calls us out of our little limited shells to seek and look for what is really going down.

 

[Paladin_]

Why were they afraid? Did they know they had done something wrong?

A valid question. Let's see what the Genesis narrative has to say:

"...And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself..."

While much of Genesis is senseless hogwash, this particular passage actually makes sense (though there is still an incomprehensible aspect to it. More on that in a moment). By eating from the Tree of Knowledge, it appears that Adam experienced such a quantum leap in self-awareness that it terrified him.

As for hiding because he knew he had "done something wrong," that isn't mentioned in the story. And, after all, when Yahweh asked him, he told him everything straight off, with no apparent evasion.

The incomprehensible part of this story -- and I suppose it's a minor quibble -- is how a sudden knowledge of "good and evil" (which, after all, is what the tree was supposed to bestow) has anything to do with one's nakedness. Is the nakedness of two adults alone in a garden really a question of "good" and "evil?"

In any case, I once again reiterate my original challenge for someone to explain the "proper" context for the list of evils upon which I expanded in my previous post.

 

[ding]

Why were they afraid? Did they know they had done something wrong?

A valid question. Let's see what the Genesis narrative has to say:

"...And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself..."

While much of Genesis is senseless hogwash, this particular passage actually makes sense (though there is still an incomprehensible aspect to it. More on that in a moment). By eating from the Tree of Knowledge, it appears that Adam experienced such a quantum leap in self-awareness that it terrified him.

As for hiding because he knew he had "done something wrong," that isn't mentioned in the story. And, after all, when Yahweh asked him, he told him everything straight off, with no apparent evasion.

The incomprehensible part of this story -- and I suppose it's a minor quibble -- is how a sudden knowledge of "good and evil" (which, after all, is what the tree was supposed to bestow) has anything to do with one's nakedness. Is the nakedness of two adults alone in a garden really a question of "good" and "evil?"

In any case, I once again reiterate my original challenge for someone to explain the "proper" context for the list of evils upon which I expanded in my previous post.

Why were they naked? And why did they answer the way they did when God asked them if they ate the apple?

 

[MaryL]

Different faith communities, denominations and churches teach various ways about the grace of God. Some of the teachings are Biblical and some quite unbiblical. Grace of God is one of the most essential teachings of the Bible and therefore it is important to understand what the Bible teaches about the grace of God. I will try to go through what the Bible says about the grace of God. My article does not cover everything about God's grace, but deals with it from a few important angles.

More info: God's grace and mercy loving goodness

Do we have a middle ground here? God's grace? Since when? Rape and mass extinction. Global warming, Since when did any religion care about the outcome of mankind?

 

[Paladin_]

Why were they naked? And why did they answer the way they did when God asked them if they ate the apple?[/QUOTE]

Why were they naked? The story never explains it, though the reasonable presumption is that they had been naked up to that point.

As for your second question -- as to why they answered as they did -- I honestly don't understand what you're getting at. Yahweh asked Adam if he'd eaten from the tree, and Adam admitted it straightaway, telling him exactly what happened (at least, as the story is outlined earlier). The same applies to Eve.

But, again, what does ANY of this have to do with offering the proper "context" for my list of Yahweh's biblical evils, which was your supposed purpose when we began this exchange?

 

[ding]

Why were they naked? And why did they answer the way they did when God asked them if they ate the apple?

Why were they naked? The story never explains it, though the reasonable presumption is that they had been naked up to that point.

As for your second question -- as to why they answered as they did -- I honestly don't understand what you're getting at. Yahweh asked Adam if he'd eaten from the tree, and Adam admitted it straightaway, telling him exactly what happened (at least, as the story is outlined earlier). The same applies to Eve.

But, again, what does ANY of this have to do with offering the proper "context" for my list of Yahweh's biblical evils, which was your supposed purpose when we began this exchange?[/QUOTE]
Yes, they were naked all along but did not know they were naked. They gained the knowledge of good and evil by eating the apple which they were forbidden to eat by God. This is symbolic/allegorical. Man is the only animal that has knowledge of good and evil. Animals don't possess that concept. Eating the apple was forbidden, Adam and Eve recognizing they were naked was symbolic of their knowledge of good and evil. Answering God that they were naked was just another way of them to not have to say they did something wrong. They were not honest when they answered God if they ate the apple. Adam said, the woman you made gave it to me. Eve said, the serpent deceived me. This was just another rationalization. They couldn't bring themselves to admit they were wrong. You are reading this stuff literally instead of searching for the true meaning and wisdom.

What does this have to do with context? I am showing you that the way you are reading it is without context. You are reading it to confirm your bias instead of trying to decipher the message. You do so because you don't believe it. You are so certain that you cannot be wrong that you have never explored other possibilities which is what I was trying to tell you in my very first post in this thread.

 

[Spare_change]

Different faith communities, denominations and churches teach various ways about the grace of God. Some of the teachings are Biblical and some quite unbiblical. Grace of God is one of the most essential teachings of the Bible and therefore it is important to understand what the Bible teaches about the grace of God. I will try to go through what the Bible says about the grace of God. My article does not cover everything about God's grace, but deals with it from a few important angles.

More info: God's grace and mercy loving goodness

Do we have a middle ground here? God's grace? Since when? Rape and mass extinction. Global warming, Since when did any religion care about the outcome of mankind?

LOL

 

[yiostheoy]

Do we have a middle ground here? God's grace? Since when? Rape and mass extinction. Global warming, Since when did any religion care about the outcome of mankind?

I prefer to consider the tons of wasted food in North America compared with the throngs of starving Africans -- mostly women and children and the elderly.

 

[yiostheoy]

- Jesus taught the message of salvation which was written down by Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Jude, James etc. (in that approximate order) and was crucified for the sins of the World so that he might have power to forgive sins;

Jesus was forgiving sins long before he was crucified. He wasn't crucified for the sins of the world he was crucified because the world is sinful.

What is the message of salvation that Jesus taught if not a revelation from God about how to be freed from the burden of the law, which is the consequence for disobedience, by revealing the hidden teaching in the law that leads to the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life for all those who accept this teaching and do it, rendering the literal interpretation and application of the law according to the talmud, the traditions of men, obsolete.

1 John 3:4-10

This all depends on your own theology.

 

[hobelim]

- Jesus taught the message of salvation which was written down by Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Jude, James etc. (in that approximate order) and was crucified for the sins of the World so that he might have power to forgive sins;

Jesus was forgiving sins long before he was crucified. He wasn't crucified for the sins of the world he was crucified because the world is sinful.

What is the message of salvation that Jesus taught if not a revelation from God about how to be freed from the burden of the law, which is the consequence for disobedience, by revealing the hidden teaching in the law that leads to the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life for all those who accept this teaching and do it, rendering the literal interpretation and application of the law according to the talmud, the traditions of men, obsolete.

1 John 3:4-10

This all depends on your own theology.

Nonsense. its according to the story not any theology that Jesus went around forgiving sins before he was crucified. He wasn't crucified so that he might have power to forgive sins. Thats completely made up.


And yes, Jesus taught a new way to understand and apply Mosaic law far superior to the traditions of men detailed in the Talmud, the only way that reveals the wisdom of God and fulfills the promise of life.

Thats what the argument between Jesus and the religious authorities was all about.

Jesus did not teach that the law was obsolete. What became obsolete by the act of God revealing its hidden meaning through Jesus was the wrong was to follow the law.





"Therefore if any man sets aside even the least of the laws demands and teaches others to do the same will have the lowest place in the kingdom of Heaven."

To understand what Jesus meant by saying " the lowest place in the kingdom of Heaven", see Genesis 3:14

 

[Paladin_]

Yes, they were naked all along but did not know they were naked. They gained the knowledge of good and evil by eating the apple which they were forbidden to eat by God. This is symbolic/allegorical. Man is the only animal that has knowledge of good and evil. Animals don't possess that concept. Eating the apple was forbidden, Adam and Eve recognizing they were naked was symbolic of their knowledge of good and evil. Answering God that they were naked was just another way of them to not have to say they did something wrong. They were not honest when they answered God if they ate the apple. Adam said, the woman you made gave it to me. Eve said, the serpent deceived me. This was just another rationalization. They couldn't bring themselves to admit they were wrong. You are reading this stuff literally instead of searching for the true meaning and wisdom.

What does this have to do with context? I am showing you that the way you are reading it is without context. You are reading it to confirm your bias instead of trying to decipher the message. You do so because you don't believe it. You are so certain that you cannot be wrong that you have never explored other possibilities which is what I was trying to tell you in my very first post in this thread.

I'm sorry Ding, but you're simply mistaken, on a number of points. First, according to the story, Adam and Eve admitted straight out what they had done. Eve explaining that the "serpent beguiled me" is not some "rationalization." It's EXACTLY what the narrative up to that point explains.

Second, I am NOT "certain that (I) cannot be wrong," as I've demonstrated a number of times already on these forums. If you'd like, we could compare the number of time's I've "stood corrected" with the number of times you've done the same. But I suspect you know the truth. Classic projection on your part.

Third, showing me how I'm supposedly reading the Garden story "without any context" STILL does not provide the context for the evils I listed before -- which you originally claimed you'd do. I'm still waiting...

 

[Paladin_]

What a profound statement! We may choose certain things and choices may lead to consequences but what we believe ultimately may be something totally different than what we thought when we walked to the carnal flesh and not in the spirit.

Many humans think they are the ones who choose God but in fact it is that spirit in us that calls us out of our little limited shells to seek and look for what is really going down.

My apologies, RodiSHI. I was here the other night for only a brief time, managing to only skim some of the other ongoing conversations, and only now recalled that you'd addressed a comment to me. While I completely disagree with your conclusions regarding "God" and the "spirit," I thank you for your compliment.

 

[ding]

I'm sorry Ding, but you're simply mistaken, on a number of points. First, according to the story, Adam and Eve admitted straight out what they had done. Eve explaining that the "serpent beguiled me" is not some "rationalization." It's EXACTLY what the narrative up to that point explains.

It most certainly is a rationalization. There was no confusion on what the standard was. I can understand how someone with an external locus of control would make an excuse for making an excuse though.

Second, I am NOT "certain that (I) cannot be wrong," as I've demonstrated a number of times already on these forums. If you'd like, we could compare the number of time's I've "stood corrected" with the number of times you've done the same. But I suspect you know the truth. Classic projection on your part.

You were wrong about militant atheism and you were wrong about the heart controlling its own beating through electrical impulses.

Third, showing me how I'm supposedly reading the Garden story "without any context" STILL does not provide the context for the evils I listed before -- which you originally claimed you'd do. I'm still waiting...

It most certainly is an example of how you do not use the proper context in reading the Bible. You don't read the Bible to gain understanding, you read it to confirm your bias.

 

[RodISHI]

What a profound statement! We may choose certain things and choices may lead to consequences but what we believe ultimately may be something totally different than what we thought when we walked to the carnal flesh and not in the spirit.

Many humans think they are the ones who choose God but in fact it is that spirit in us that calls us out of our little limited shells to seek and look for what is really going down.

My apologies, RodiSHI. I was here the other night for only a brief time, managing to only skim some of the other ongoing conversations, and only now recalled that you'd addressed a comment to me. While I completely disagree with your conclusions regarding "God" and the "spirit," I thank you for your compliment.

Not problem. I was using your words. If you do not agree it is your prerogative. I am certain the spirit of truth knows where and how to find you . I may have not agreed with the "conclusions" in days past but now I know we can think one thing and it can be totally different from what we initially thought when we are thinking as flesh/carnal beings.

 

[Paladin_]

It most certainly is an example of how you do not use the proper context in reading the Bible. You don't read the Bible to gain understanding, you read it to confirm your bias.

Ding, HOW did I not "use the proper context" in understanding the Garden story? We've both quoted verses from that narrative, and NONE of them support your interpretation that Adam and Eve were "rationalizing" their behavior. But, as you say, you read it to confirm your own bias.

And I'm STILL waiting for you to explain the "proper" context to explain away the biblical evils I identified before. Here they are again, to refresh your memory:

- Slavery
- Human sacrifice
- Planetary ecocide (including countless innocent human beings and ignorant animals)
- Genocide of entire cultures (making especially certain not to miss any babies or fetuses in the womb)
- Dashing infants' heads against rocks
- Threatening to starve people to the point where they'll be forced to eat their children
- Dooming billions to an eternity of torment in Hell, simply because they were born into the wrong faith.

Whenever you're ready...

 

[RodISHI]

It most certainly is an example of how you do not use the proper context in reading the Bible. You don't read the Bible to gain understanding, you read it to confirm your bias.

Ding, HOW did I not "use the proper context" in understanding the Garden story? We've both quoted verses from that narrative, and NONE of them support your interpretation that Adam and Eve were "rationalizing" their behavior. But, as you say, you read it to confirm your own bias.

And I'm STILL waiting for you to explain the "proper" context to explain away the biblical evils I identified before. Here they are again, to refresh your memory:

- Slavery
- Human sacrifice
- Planetary ecocide (including countless innocent human beings and ignorant animals)
- Genocide of entire cultures (making especially certain not to miss any babies or fetuses in the womb)
- Dashing infants' heads against rocks
- Threatening to starve people to the point where they'll be forced to eat their children
- Dooming billions to an eternity of torment in Hell, simply because they were born into the wrong faith.

Whenever you're ready...

Just curious. Can you explain these things?