Louisiana v "Pro-life leaders"... What say you religious ones here?

[rightnow909]

I posted this in Politics since it has to do with legislation pending in... probably more than one state... But I thought I would get the opinions of "religious" people, for lack of a better term...

Pro-life organizations wrote a letter to lawmakers (not sure which ones, but probably those in Louisiana which is considering legislation to punish women who obtain an abortion). In the letter they speak of the Catholic Church’s position on abortion. However, these “70 pro-life leaders” do not seem to be in conformity with the teachings of the Catholic Church OR with logic. (This is from an article in the Southern Nebraska Register, May 20, 2022) My comments are in [ ]s and the non-italicized parts.

First the parts I agree with… I only found a couple paragraphs (strangely):
“[The woman]… is also Roe’s victim… She is the victim of a callous industry created to take lives; an industry that claims to provide for women’s health but denies the reality that far too many American women suffer devastating physical and psychological damage following abortion.”

The] Catholic Church condemns abortion… stresses the importance of forgiveness and mercy for the women who have obtained abortions… “… does not intend to restrict the scope of mercy,” the Catechism… reads… “makes clear the gravity of the crime… the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”
There are about 16 paragraphs in this article and I agree ONLY with those 2.
Then there is a sentence I agree with: “[T]here are two victims with every abortion…” [except that, no, there are far more than just those two primary ones. The father can suffer… All of society suffers].
In this letter to lawmakers, these pro-life leaders “demanded [demanded!] that state lawmakers refuse to punish or criminalize women who obtain abortions.“
They seem to be particularly concerned about Louisiana, a state considering legislation that could subject women who obtain abortions to criminal prosecution and prison.
I’m with Louisiana. In fact, I was enraged reading the position of these so-called pro-life leaders.
The Catholic Church, I am convinced, does not agree with them (in an ex cathedra way), although there is no list of all the aforementioned “leaders” who wrote this letter. Oh, wait, there is mention of an archbishop William Lori, who, astoundingly, is HEAD of the US bishops’ pro-life committee!
So, these people obviously are in error, against both logic and LIFE AND the American way (which American way, if done according to how our Founders designed, is an excellent way).
As to that latter argument, there is this: There is supposed to be a semblance of equality in our American system of justice. You are going to punish a doctor who performs an abortion but NOT—as per Pope Francis—the woman who ordered “the hit.” (Pope F referred once to abortion as being a hit job or words to that effect.)
This makes no logical sense. You don’t give one person committing murder a prison or death sentence and let another murderer go free.
So, the way I see things is that these “leaders” do not REALLY see abortion as murder after all. If they did, they would want ALL parties implicated in said murderous act to be punished by our laws..


YES, LOUISIANA!!!


Show us the way….

 

[The Irish Ram]

The same thing we say everywhere else. Stop the slaughter now before perenatal becomes the accepted woke behavior. Carving up infants like chickens and selling their parts is macabre...

 

[rightnow909]

The same thing we say everywhere else. Stop the slaughter now before perenatal becomes the accepted woke behavior. Carving up infants like chickens and selling their parts is macabre...

it was macabre a long time ago... before the parts selling thing happened...

to murder a helpless child who hasn't harmed anyone... can't think of anything more diabolical...

 

[Seymour Flops]

So, slam-dunk me if you like. I have been arguing the pro-life position on here since the leak, and my avatar is in no way ironic. I am pro-life. Not Catholic, though. I have moved in and out of the Baptist faith all my life, from being a firm believer, to an avowed atheist to now being a believer whose heart is in the world more than it should be. Through all that, always, I was pro-life. I never believed the nonsense that an unborn baby is not a person, not a human being, not entitled to be protected from being killed.

That being said, the pro-life movement needs to be very careful about demanding harsh punishments for women who have abortions. For two main reasons:

1) Indeed, as you said you agree with, abortion victimizes two people. A baby who is killed and a woman who takes the incredibly unnatural and counter-intuitive step of killing her own child. Study after study shows that the two main reasons that women have abortion are relationship issues (baby daddy don't want to be baby daddy) and financial issues (baby daddy don't want to support baby). Women who have abortions are nearly always bowing to pressure from a man, in spite of the feminists claim that abortion empowers women.

2) Punishing women for abortions will shift sympathy away from the babies saved by abortion bans and to the women imprisoned. Shows like 60 Minutes have done sympathetic puff piece stories about Manson girls in prison. You think they won't be sob sisters for a woman who had an abortion and was sent to the slammer?

We oppose abortion because we are kind, too kind to stand by while babies are being slaughtered. Why make it easy for the enemy of children to paint us as unkind?

Not to say that no punishment should be included for women having abortions. Make it just enough that it will give them reason to resist the "man" in their lives attempt to push them into the killing.

 

[rightnow909]

So, slam-dunk me if you like. I have been arguing the pro-life position on here since the leak, and my avatar is in no way ironic. I am pro-life. Not Catholic, though. I have moved in and out of the Baptist faith all my life, from being a firm believer, to an avowed atheist to now being a believer whose heart is in the world more than it should be. Through all that, always, I was pro-life. I never believed the nonsense that an unborn baby is not a person, not a human being, not entitled to be protected from being killed.

That being said, the pro-life movement needs to be very careful about demanding harsh punishments for women who have abortions. For two main reasons:

1) Indeed, as you said you agree with, abortion victimizes two people. A baby who is killed and a woman who takes the incredibly unnatural and counter-intuitive step of killing her own child. Study after study shows that the two main reasons that women have abortion are relationship issues (baby daddy don't want to be baby daddy) and financial issues (baby daddy don't want to support baby). Women who have abortions are nearly always bowing to pressure from a man, in spite of the feminists claim that abortion empowers women.

2) Punishing women for abortions will shift sympathy away from the babies saved by abortion bans and to the women imprisoned. Shows like 60 Minutes have done sympathetic puff piece stories about Manson girls in prison. You think they won't be sob sisters for a woman who had an abortion and was sent to the slammer?

We oppose abortion because we are kind, too kind to stand by while babies are being slaughtered. Why make it easy for the enemy of children to paint us as unkind?

Not to say that no punishment should be included for women having abortions. Make it just enough that it will give them reason to resist the "man" in their lives attempt to push them into the killing.

I copied this to read later... don't want to speak off the cuff

 

[rightnow909]

The same thing we say everywhere else. Stop the slaughter now before perenatal becomes the accepted woke behavior. Carving up infants like chickens and selling their parts is macabre...

you shouldn't have to say that... Scary world where you feel compelled to say the obvious...

 

[rightnow909]

OK, Mr Flops, I finished reading your post

You speak of kindness... Great, the world needs more of that and no one will argue...

(except baby killers?)

Here's the problem. If you don't punish women for getting abortions but you punish the "doctor" who does it, that sends a message to women and everyone else that abortion is something less than actual murder.

Anyone here know much about Mafia murders? Did the hit man get the same sentence as the one who ordered the hit? I don't know... I am asking. But my guess is that both would be prosecuted...


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[Seymour Flops]

OK, Mr Flops, I finished reading your post

You speak of kindness... Great, the world needs more of that and no one will argue...

(except baby killers?)

Here's the problem. If you don't punish women for getting abortions but you punish the "doctor" who does it, that sends a message to women and everyone else that abortion is something less than actual murder.

Anyone here know much about Mafia murders? Did the hit man get the same sentence as the one who ordered the hit? I don't know... I am asking. But my guess is that both would be prosecuted...


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I understand what you're saying, and I don't say that you're wrong.

Let me try this analogy: Suppose you were transported back to the slave era and landed right in the middle of an anti-slavery activist organization in the deep south. They are discussing a law they think they can get passed making it a misdemeanor to kill a slave that gets too old to work. Slave-owners will be required to either take care of old slaves or turn old slaves over to a church group or other anti-slavers who will take care of the slave.

Would you say to them, "Mr Abolitionist, what do you mean, 'misdemeanor?'" Killing a slave is murder! Nothing less! When one of them plantation owners finds himself on the end of a rope for killing an old slave, the rest will learn their lesson! Compromise is the enemy!"

That would be a useless argument. The anti-slavers would agree with you in principle, as I do on your belief that abortion is murder. Killing an unborn child, or killing a worked out, slave is murder. But in our time, the abortion debate is like the slave debate back then. Plenty of otherwise reasonable people on pro-side who honestly do not believe that the subjects of the debate are human beings.

Send a plantation owner to the gallows for killing "his own" slave, and the reaction would be harsh, not just from slave-owners, but from middle of the road people (of the time) who think that goes too far. Same with abortion in modern times.

 

[rightnow909]

I understand what you're saying, and I don't say that you're wrong.

Let me try this analogy: Suppose you were transported back to the slave era and landed right in the middle of an anti-slavery activist organization in the deep south. They are discussing a law they think they can get passed making it a misdemeanor to kill a slave that gets too old to work. Slave-owners will be required to either take care of old slaves or turn old slaves over to a church group or other anti-slavers who will take care of the slave.

Would you say to them, "Mr Abolitionist, what do you mean, 'misdemeanor?'" Killing a slave is murder! Nothing less! When one of them plantation owners finds himself on the end of a rope for killing an old slave, the rest will learn their lesson! Compromise is the enemy!"

That would be a useless argument. The anti-slavers would agree with you in principle, as I do on your belief that abortion is murder. Killing an unborn child, or killing a worked out, slave is murder. But in our time, the abortion debate is like the slave debate back then. Plenty of otherwise reasonable people on pro-side who honestly do not believe that the subjects of the debate are human beings.

Send a plantation owner to the gallows for killing "his own" slave, and the reaction would be harsh, not just from slave-owners, but from middle of the road people (of the time) who think that goes too far. Same with abortion in modern times.

well, assuming I totally get your argument (I think i do... ) I have this to say: Abortion has killed 63 million. No one will ever know the talents and etc of those lost people, save God... total tragedy

enough already... Let's call a spade a spade and actually punish people for murder.

Again, why imprison a woman who kills her born child but not the one who kills her unborn?

And when women realize they can be accused/convicted of murder, they will definitely think twice... not only about abortion but about even getting pregnant in thefirst place.

if it is an actual rape (not just some phony claim), then maybe I could understand your point... Then again, it is murder regardless of how the innocent child came into existence.


You know, there is adoption... It is hard to give a child up for adoption... but it is WAY easier than living with the consequences of abortion.. Sometimes ONE abortion can make a woman sterile for life (for one)

 

[Seymour Flops]

well, assuming I totally get your argument (I think i do... ) I have this to say: Abortion has killed 63 million. No one will ever know the talents and etc of those lost people, save God... total tragedy

enough already... Let's call a spade a spade and actually punish people for murder.

Again, why imprison a woman who kills her born child but not the one who kills her unborn?

And when women realize they can be accused/convicted of murder, they will definitely think twice... not only about abortion but about even getting pregnant in thefirst place.

if it is an actual rape (not just some phony claim), then maybe I could understand your point... Then again, it is murder regardless of how the innocent child came into existence.


You know, there is adoption... It is hard to give a child up for adoption... but it is WAY easier than living with the consequences of abortion.. Sometimes ONE abortion can make a woman sterile for life (for one)

I have a hard time arguing with you, because on one level you are absolutely right. You're preaching to the converted about adoption. That whole, "are righties gonna take pay for all the unwanted babies?" is hogwash. People are waiting for years to adopt a baby and I'm sure the abortion massacre is even more heartbreaking for them than for me.

My belief is that most women are pushed into abortion by their less-than-manly men. Killing her own baby is a completely unnatural act for a woman. Make the penalty enough that she has cover to say no to the sperm donor, but not so much that she becomes a martyr and her plight precipitates a backlash that puts us right back to the bad old days.

I've said my piece, and you are on firm moral ground, so I will respectfully read, but not respond to your last word.

 

[rightnow909]

I have a hard time arguing with you, because on one level you are absolutely right. You're preaching to the converted about adoption. That whole, "are righties gonna take pay for all the unwanted babies?" is hogwash. People are waiting for years to adopt a baby and I'm sure the abortion massacre is even more heartbreaking for them than for me.

My belief is that most women are pushed into abortion by their less-than-manly men. Killing her own baby is a completely unnatural act for a woman. Make the penalty enough that she has cover to say no to the sperm donor, but not so much that she becomes a martyr and her plight precipitates a backlash that puts us right back to the bad old days.

I've said my piece, and you are on firm moral ground, so I will respectfully read, but not respond to your last word.

ok, I have to backtrack some things I said. I didn't say this one thing well... the part about I could see your point if it were an actual rape.. I can see your point PERIOD. I know that sometimes you have to be, as the Word says, "cunning as serpents but gentle as doves"... and you are absolutely correct about the backlash from the "OH we're so COMPASSIONATE" (not) lying libtards... we always know there will be that..

As someone once said Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

I have to confess I was a little premature praising LA for having my own viewpoint... I guess there was some Bill that was going through but it was... didn't go through... and they had some other bill drawn up... need to get more details on this...

I'll put it this way: If the only way to get a Bill passed is to leave out a severe punishment for the woman, then I am 100% behind that. However, in a state like LA, maybe there would be consensus and... wouldn't have to compromise?

anyway.... Thanks for this uplifting conversation.. so refreshing after... you know... all the "I know you are, but what am I?" stuff... laugh

 

[rightnow909]

I guess Flops is on vacation....

 

[rightnow909]

Then I think of this quote from Barry Goldwater


“Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” [emphasis added]


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[rightnow909]

I thought the Dobbs decision was supposed to be made by scotus in June...