LoBiando Doesn't KNOW The Constitution...

[bodecea]

Why concentrate on the impeachment process? In most of the recall states, specific grounds are not required, and the recall of a state official is by an election. In other words the grounds can be as simple as incompetence or malfeasance.

OK, NAME the incompetence or malfeasance that all these Congressmen are recall-worthy of.


(BTW...could you point out in the Constitution the part where it allows for the Recall of U.S. representatives?)

Again you're attempting to make this a personal issue. I'm simply stating for the record that state representatives can be impeached and/or recalled. The recall process is not in the US Constitution but rather in the respective States' Constitutions. I gave you two reasons that can be used in a recall, incompetence and malfeaseance. Shall I define the two words for you? Because you're asking to name the incompetence and or malfeasance of congressmen when in fact the two words are self explanatory. Oh by the way, I haven't called for anyone to be impeached or recalled.

Show me which State Constitutions allow for the Recall of U.S. Representatives. Reference at least one for me.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The score is:

The T - 100

Jillian - 0

Dogfart - 0

I find this hysterical considering that at this point there aren't even 100 posts in this thread....I guess Lonestar Secesh counts as well as he constructs arguments.

You're assuming I scored 1 point per post. You assume wrong.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

OK, NAME the incompetence or malfeasance that all these Congressmen are recall-worthy of.


(BTW...could you point out in the Constitution the part where it allows for the Recall of U.S. representatives?)

Again you're attempting to make this a personal issue. I'm simply stating for the record that state representatives can be impeached and/or recalled. The recall process is not in the US Constitution but rather in the respective States' Constitutions. I gave you two reasons that can be used in a recall, incompetence and malfeaseance. Shall I define the two words for you? Because you're asking to name the incompetence and or malfeasance of congressmen when in fact the two words are self explanatory. Oh by the way, I haven't called for anyone to be impeached or recalled.

Show me which State Constitutions allow for the Recall of U.S. Representatives. Reference at least one for me.

Recall of State Officials

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 2 VOTING, INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM, AND RECALL


SEC. 14. (a) Recall of a state officer is initiated by delivering
to the Secretary of State a petition alleging reason for recall.
Sufficiency of reason is not reviewable. Proponents have 160 days to
file signed petitions.
(b) A petition to recall a statewide officer must be signed by
electors equal in number to 12 percent of the last vote for the
office, with signatures from each of 5 counties equal in number to 1
percent of the last vote for the office in the county. Signatures to
recall Senators, members of the Assembly, members of the Board of
Equalization, and judges of courts of appeal and trial courts must
equal in number 20 percent of the last vote for the office.
(c) The Secretary of State shall maintain a continuous count of
the signatures certified to that office.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_2

b. The people reserve unto themselves the power to recall, after at least one year of service, any elected official in this State or representing this State in the United States Congress. The Legislature shall enact laws to provide for such recall elections. Any such laws shall include a provision that a recall election shall be held upon petition of at least 25% of the registered voters in the electoral district of the official sought to be recalled. If legislation to implement this constitutional amendment is not enacted within one year of the adoption of the amendment, the Secretary of State shall, by regulation, implement the constitutional amendment, except that regulations adopted by the Secretary of State shall be superseded by any subsequent legislation consistent with this constitutional amendment governing recall elections. The sufficiency of any statement of reasons or grounds procedurally required shall be a political rather than a judicial question.
New Jersey State Constitution

The Legal Standards for Holding a Recall Election of Members of the United States House of Representatives and Senate Elected from the State of Kansas

Article 4, Section 3 of the Kansas Constitution specifically states:

"All elected public officials in the state, except judicial officers, shall be subject to recall by voters of the state or political subdivision from which elected"
State of Kansas Recall Election Statutes

 

[bodecea]

Again you're attempting to make this a personal issue. I'm simply stating for the record that state representatives can be impeached and/or recalled. The recall process is not in the US Constitution but rather in the respective States' Constitutions. I gave you two reasons that can be used in a recall, incompetence and malfeaseance. Shall I define the two words for you? Because you're asking to name the incompetence and or malfeasance of congressmen when in fact the two words are self explanatory. Oh by the way, I haven't called for anyone to be impeached or recalled.

Show me which State Constitutions allow for the Recall of U.S. Representatives. Reference at least one for me.

Recall of State Officials

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 2 VOTING, INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM, AND RECALL


SEC. 14. (a) Recall of a state officer is initiated by delivering
to the Secretary of State a petition alleging reason for recall.
Sufficiency of reason is not reviewable. Proponents have 160 days to
file signed petitions.
(b) A petition to recall a statewide officer must be signed by
electors equal in number to 12 percent of the last vote for the
office, with signatures from each of 5 counties equal in number to 1
percent of the last vote for the office in the county. Signatures to
recall Senators, members of the Assembly, members of the Board of
Equalization, and judges of courts of appeal and trial courts must
equal in number 20 percent of the last vote for the office.
(c) The Secretary of State shall maintain a continuous count of
the signatures certified to that office.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_2

b. The people reserve unto themselves the power to recall, after at least one year of service, any elected official in this State or representing this State in the United States Congress. The Legislature shall enact laws to provide for such recall elections. Any such laws shall include a provision that a recall election shall be held upon petition of at least 25% of the registered voters in the electoral district of the official sought to be recalled. If legislation to implement this constitutional amendment is not enacted within one year of the adoption of the amendment, the Secretary of State shall, by regulation, implement the constitutional amendment, except that regulations adopted by the Secretary of State shall be superseded by any subsequent legislation consistent with this constitutional amendment governing recall elections. The sufficiency of any statement of reasons or grounds procedurally required shall be a political rather than a judicial question.
New Jersey State Constitution

The Legal Standards for Holding a Recall Election of Members of the United States House of Representatives and Senate Elected from the State of Kansas

Article 4, Section 3 of the Kansas Constitution specifically states:

"All elected public officials in the state, except judicial officers, shall be subject to recall by voters of the state or political subdivision from which elected"
State of Kansas Recall Election Statutes

Interesting....I did not know that states had that power, since it is not part of the qualifications for office and election to office of U.S. Representatives listed in the Constitution. I have to wonder if a state were to try to recall a Representative or Senator would it stand constitutional muster. But until that time, I stand corrected.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Show me which State Constitutions allow for the Recall of U.S. Representatives. Reference at least one for me.

Recall of State Officials

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 2 VOTING, INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM, AND RECALL


SEC. 14. (a) Recall of a state officer is initiated by delivering
to the Secretary of State a petition alleging reason for recall.
Sufficiency of reason is not reviewable. Proponents have 160 days to
file signed petitions.
(b) A petition to recall a statewide officer must be signed by
electors equal in number to 12 percent of the last vote for the
office, with signatures from each of 5 counties equal in number to 1
percent of the last vote for the office in the county. Signatures to
recall Senators, members of the Assembly, members of the Board of
Equalization, and judges of courts of appeal and trial courts must
equal in number 20 percent of the last vote for the office.
(c) The Secretary of State shall maintain a continuous count of
the signatures certified to that office.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_2

b. The people reserve unto themselves the power to recall, after at least one year of service, any elected official in this State or representing this State in the United States Congress. The Legislature shall enact laws to provide for such recall elections. Any such laws shall include a provision that a recall election shall be held upon petition of at least 25% of the registered voters in the electoral district of the official sought to be recalled. If legislation to implement this constitutional amendment is not enacted within one year of the adoption of the amendment, the Secretary of State shall, by regulation, implement the constitutional amendment, except that regulations adopted by the Secretary of State shall be superseded by any subsequent legislation consistent with this constitutional amendment governing recall elections. The sufficiency of any statement of reasons or grounds procedurally required shall be a political rather than a judicial question.
New Jersey State Constitution

The Legal Standards for Holding a Recall Election of Members of the United States House of Representatives and Senate Elected from the State of Kansas

Article 4, Section 3 of the Kansas Constitution specifically states:

"All elected public officials in the state, except judicial officers, shall be subject to recall by voters of the state or political subdivision from which elected"
State of Kansas Recall Election Statutes

Interesting....I did not know that states had that power, since it is not part of the qualifications for office and election to office of U.S. Representatives listed in the Constitution. I have to wonder if a state were to try to recall a Representative or Senator would it stand constitutional muster. But until that time, I stand corrected.

Why shouldn't it hold "constitutional muster"? Show me which Article of the Constitution would call into question the States' rights to recall their representatives. I offer the Tenth Amendment to support the legalities of recalling State Officials.

 

[bodecea]

Recall of State Officials

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 2 VOTING, INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM, AND RECALL


SEC. 14. (a) Recall of a state officer is initiated by delivering
to the Secretary of State a petition alleging reason for recall.
Sufficiency of reason is not reviewable. Proponents have 160 days to
file signed petitions.
(b) A petition to recall a statewide officer must be signed by
electors equal in number to 12 percent of the last vote for the
office, with signatures from each of 5 counties equal in number to 1
percent of the last vote for the office in the county. Signatures to
recall Senators, members of the Assembly, members of the Board of
Equalization, and judges of courts of appeal and trial courts must
equal in number 20 percent of the last vote for the office.
(c) The Secretary of State shall maintain a continuous count of
the signatures certified to that office.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_2

b. The people reserve unto themselves the power to recall, after at least one year of service, any elected official in this State or representing this State in the United States Congress. The Legislature shall enact laws to provide for such recall elections. Any such laws shall include a provision that a recall election shall be held upon petition of at least 25% of the registered voters in the electoral district of the official sought to be recalled. If legislation to implement this constitutional amendment is not enacted within one year of the adoption of the amendment, the Secretary of State shall, by regulation, implement the constitutional amendment, except that regulations adopted by the Secretary of State shall be superseded by any subsequent legislation consistent with this constitutional amendment governing recall elections. The sufficiency of any statement of reasons or grounds procedurally required shall be a political rather than a judicial question.
New Jersey State Constitution

The Legal Standards for Holding a Recall Election of Members of the United States House of Representatives and Senate Elected from the State of Kansas

Article 4, Section 3 of the Kansas Constitution specifically states:

"All elected public officials in the state, except judicial officers, shall be subject to recall by voters of the state or political subdivision from which elected"
State of Kansas Recall Election Statutes

Interesting....I did not know that states had that power, since it is not part of the qualifications for office and election to office of U.S. Representatives listed in the Constitution. I have to wonder if a state were to try to recall a Representative or Senator would it stand constitutional muster. But until that time, I stand corrected.

Why shouldn't it hold "constitutional muster"? Show me which Article of the Constitution would call into question the States' rights to recall their representatives. I offer the Tenth Amendment to support the legalities of recalling State Officials.

Well, if I am not mistaken, Article I, Section 4 gives the States the power to set times, places, and manners of holding elections however Section 5 says "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and QUALIFICATIONS of its own members"...furthermore "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."


While the Xth Amendment says this: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the People."

If you look to Article I, Sections 4 & 5, those powers ARE delegated to the United States therefore they do not fall to the States. So, while I am not a Constitutional lawyer...to my layman's eyes, seems to me once the people have elected a qualified member to Congress...until the next election...their continued service depends on Congress itself.

 

[Montrovant]

Thought I'd chime in here.

First, I understand the frustration people feel when their representatives do not have a strong knowledge of the constitution. That makes perfect sense. However, there already are processes in place to remove/replace members of congress if you feel they are not up to the job. If you want to 'fire' them, vote for someone else, or run yourself.

I'd also like to point out that saying 'they are our employees' doesn't really fit the situation. Being employed by everyone (or at least everyone of voting age) is not the same as being the employee of a business. YOU may feel a representative is doing a poor job, is unqualified, etc....but unless enough voters agree with you, you don't get to decide they should be 'fired'.

Can congresspeople vote for themselves in elections? If so, don't they have just as much say in whether or not they should be fired as any other citizen?

Oh, and because I can't help but nit-pick, I've seen quite a few instances in this thread of people saying our congresspeople must know the constitution because they have sword to defend it. Wouldn't that mean our soldiers should also be tested on the constitution? Don't they swear an oath to support and defend the constitution? (I understand there's a big difference, like I said, this is just nit-picking the wording used )

As I said at the beginning, I get the anger and frustration when you feel your representative isn't living up to something you think should be bare minimum requirements of the job. By all means, vote against those reps; contact any you believe are good and ask them to propose legislation requiring testing, or propose an amendment requiring it; run for congress yourself to try and do these things. Even if no amendment or law is passed, if enough fuss is created it might at least get some of the current reps to consider boning up on the constitution to please their constituents.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Interesting....I did not know that states had that power, since it is not part of the qualifications for office and election to office of U.S. Representatives listed in the Constitution. I have to wonder if a state were to try to recall a Representative or Senator would it stand constitutional muster. But until that time, I stand corrected.

Why shouldn't it hold "constitutional muster"? Show me which Article of the Constitution would call into question the States' rights to recall their representatives. I offer the Tenth Amendment to support the legalities of recalling State Officials.

Well, if I am not mistaken, Article I, Section 4 gives the States the power to set times, places, and manners of holding elections however Section 5 says "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and QUALIFICATIONS of its own members"...furthermore "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."


While the Xth Amendment says this: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the People."

If you look to Article I, Sections 4 & 5, those powers ARE delegated to the United States therefore they do not fall to the States. So, while I am not a Constitutional lawyer...to my layman's eyes, seems to me once the people have elected a qualified member to Congress...until the next election...their continued service depends on Congress itself.

Then the Constitution supports my argument that House members can be recalled, or in the words of the Constitution "expelled".

http://lugar.senate.gov/services/pdf_crs/Recall_of_Legislators_and_the_Removal_of_Members_of_Congress_from_Office.pdf

 

[The T]

Article 1...

Section 4 & 5


Section 4.

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.
The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

Section 5.

Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.
Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

___________________

-All they do is explain how the Congress itself conducts it's business. It however says ZERO of what the States, or the people respectively can recall, nor dismiss it's elected federal officials.

That is left to the States or The people per The Tenth Amendment.

 

[The T]

Why concentrate on the impeachment process? In most of the recall states, specific grounds are not required, and the recall of a state official is by an election. In other words the grounds can be as simple as incompetence or malfeasance.

OK, NAME the incompetence or malfeasance that all these Congressmen are recall-worthy of.


(BTW...could you point out in the Constitution the part where it allows for the Recall of U.S. representatives?)

Again you're attempting to make this a personal issue. I'm simply stating for the record that state representatives can be impeached and/or recalled. The recall process is not in the US Constitution but rather in the respective States' Constitutions. I gave you two reasons that can be used in a recall, incompetence and malfeaseance. Shall I define the two words for you? Because you're asking to name the incompetence and or malfeasance of congressmen when in fact the two words are self explanatory. Oh by the way, I haven't called for anyone to be impeached or recalled.

It's all she has. And you won't convince her at all. In fact mine is a call for people to wake up and hold their representives accountable, early, and often. And yes, contrary to belief per some that have been in this thread?

They -are- employees of the people.

 

[bodecea]

Why shouldn't it hold "constitutional muster"? Show me which Article of the Constitution would call into question the States' rights to recall their representatives. I offer the Tenth Amendment to support the legalities of recalling State Officials.

Well, if I am not mistaken, Article I, Section 4 gives the States the power to set times, places, and manners of holding elections however Section 5 says "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and QUALIFICATIONS of its own members"...furthermore "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."


While the Xth Amendment says this: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the People."

If you look to Article I, Sections 4 & 5, those powers ARE delegated to the United States therefore they do not fall to the States. So, while I am not a Constitutional lawyer...to my layman's eyes, seems to me once the people have elected a qualified member to Congress...until the next election...their continued service depends on Congress itself.

Then the Constitution supports my argument that House members can be recalled, or in the words of the Constitution "expelled".

http://lugar.senate.gov/services/pdf_crs/Recall_of_Legislators_and_the_Removal_of_Members_of_Congress_from_Office.pdf

By their Congress compatriots.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Well, if I am not mistaken, Article I, Section 4 gives the States the power to set times, places, and manners of holding elections however Section 5 says "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and QUALIFICATIONS of its own members"...furthermore "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."


While the Xth Amendment says this: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the People."

If you look to Article I, Sections 4 & 5, those powers ARE delegated to the United States therefore they do not fall to the States. So, while I am not a Constitutional lawyer...to my layman's eyes, seems to me once the people have elected a qualified member to Congress...until the next election...their continued service depends on Congress itself.

Then the Constitution supports my argument that House members can be recalled, or in the words of the Constitution "expelled".

http://lugar.senate.gov/services/pdf_crs/Recall_of_Legislators_and_the_Removal_of_Members_of_Congress_from_Office.pdf

By their Congress compatriots.

Fact is dumbshit, I'm right and you're wrong. You keep changing the parameters of the debate and everytime you do, you still lose. Whether under the US constitution or by State Constitution, there is procedures to remove an official from office.

 

[bodecea]

Then the Constitution supports my argument that House members can be recalled, or in the words of the Constitution "expelled".

http://lugar.senate.gov/services/pdf_crs/Recall_of_Legislators_and_the_Removal_of_Members_of_Congress_from_Office.pdf

By their Congress compatriots.

Fact is dumbshit, I'm right and you're wrong. You keep changing the parameters of the debate and everytime you do, you still lose. Whether under the US constitution or by State Constitution, there is procedures to remove an official from office.

So...you disagree with what the Constitution says in Article I, Sections 4 & 5?


BTW, your wording is precious.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

By their Congress compatriots.

Fact is dumbshit, I'm right and you're wrong. You keep changing the parameters of the debate and everytime you do, you still lose. Whether under the US constitution or by State Constitution, there is procedures to remove an official from office.

So...you disagree with what the Constitution says in Article I, Sections 4 & 5?


BTW, your wording is precious.

Do I disagree? No, because it supports my argument that politicians can be removed from office. It doesn't say that that is the ONLY way to expel a member.

 

[bodecea]

Fact is dumbshit, I'm right and you're wrong. You keep changing the parameters of the debate and everytime you do, you still lose. Whether under the US constitution or by State Constitution, there is procedures to remove an official from office.

So...you disagree with what the Constitution says in Article I, Sections 4 & 5?


BTW, your wording is precious.

Do I disagree? No, because it supports my argument that politicians can be removed from office. It doesn't say that that is the ONLY way to expel a member.

Really?

"Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly BEhavior, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member"

Can you point out the part of that that says...."except if the state wants to do something different...."?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

So...you disagree with what the Constitution says in Article I, Sections 4 & 5?


BTW, your wording is precious.

Do I disagree? No, because it supports my argument that politicians can be removed from office. It doesn't say that that is the ONLY way to expel a member.

Really?

"Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly BEhavior, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member"

Can you point out the part of that that says...."except if the state wants to do something different...."?

No but I never made that distinction.

I said that according to several state constitutions a state representative could be recalled. You said it wouldn't hold up to Constitutional muster. But I recklon you're wanting to change your position again.

 

[bodecea]

Do I disagree? No, because it supports my argument that politicians can be removed from office. It doesn't say that that is the ONLY way to expel a member.

Really?

"Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly BEhavior, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member"

Can you point out the part of that that says...."except if the state wants to do something different...."?

No but I never made that distinction.

I said that according to several state constitutions a state representative could be recalled. You said it wouldn't hold up to Constitutional muster. But I recklon you're wanting to change your position again.

Nope...show us where whatever a state constitution says would trump what the U.S. Constitution says on the issue, tho. I look forward to your next amusing statement.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Really?

"Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly BEhavior, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member"

Can you point out the part of that that says...."except if the state wants to do something different...."?

No but I never made that distinction.

I said that according to several state constitutions a state representative could be recalled. You said it wouldn't hold up to Constitutional muster. But I recklon you're wanting to change your position again.

Nope...show us where whatever a state constitution says would trump what the U.S. Constitution says on the issue, tho. I look forward to your next amusing statement.

How many times are you going to lose this same argument?

 

[The T]

No but I never made that distinction.

I said that according to several state constitutions a state representative could be recalled. You said it wouldn't hold up to Constitutional muster. But I recklon you're wanting to change your position again.

Nope...show us where whatever a state constitution says would trump what the U.S. Constitution says on the issue, tho. I look forward to your next amusing statement.

How many times are you going to lose this same argument?

And of course? The electeds had to fulfill certain prerequisites to get elected. And don't bother arguing with it. She's well known for changing the framing of the argument. It's a typical tactic.

 

[bodecea]

No but I never made that distinction.

I said that according to several state constitutions a state representative could be recalled. You said it wouldn't hold up to Constitutional muster. But I recklon you're wanting to change your position again.

Nope...show us where whatever a state constitution says would trump what the U.S. Constitution says on the issue, tho. I look forward to your next amusing statement.

How many times are you going to lose this same argument?

Show us where it says what a state constitution says trumps the U.S. Constitution. Still waiting (and just declaring some kind of victory without proving squat just makes you look silly(ier))