Living with a Chevrolet Volt

[Jarlaxle]

If Liz mentioned wanting a Volt, I would suspect alien abduction and replacement with a clone!

 

[martinjlm]

2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).

How many years would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?

Wow, the build price is dropping like a stone, the lie used to be $250,000!

The CON$ervoFascist Brotherhood have been making up phony "cost to build" numbers for the Volt for quite some time, but there are still some morons stupid enough to believe them no matter how many times they are debunked.

If You Want To Attack The Volt, Try To Get Your Math Right

Here's the story. Four days ago, we dissected in some detail Matt Drudge's uninformed war against the Volt. He promptly posted two more anti-Volt headlines the next day.
One of them linked to an article on Michigan Capital Confidential citing a study by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.
A quarter of a meeeeellion dollars !!
The report claims that every Chevrolet Volt is the beneficiary of a quarter of a million dollars of state and Federal subsidies. Yes, the car with a 2012 retail price of $39,995 carries $250,000 of Your Tax Dollars in its load bay.
Hohman added up all the known state and Federal incentives to obtain a "total value offered to the Volt," not only for General Motors but also its suppliers.
A total of "18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits" are included. The total loan amounts are apparently listed in full, even though the loans are intended to be be paid back with interest.
Hohman then divided the sum by the number of Volts sold as of November 30. The result prompted him to call the Volt "the most government-supported car since the Trabant," the East German plastic-bodied two-cylinder minicar.
The denominator problem
As Wahlman notes, the egregious flaw in this calculation is "the denominator problem"--to what base of cars do you apply the analysis?

2011 Chevrolet Volt Production Line



Dividing the number of Volts sold to date (6,468 as of November 30) into the total incentives that apply to all Volts past, present, and future is either dopey or intellectually dishonest.
You could as easily say that on December 15 last year, the day the first Volt was delivered to a retail buyer, it carried a stunning, incredible, unconscionable $1.5 BILLION in subsidies. You'd be doing the same thing: dividing by the number of Volts sold, or 1.

The funny thing is, because of what I do for a living, I know a lot of the Volt people on a personal basis. I have a pretty good idea of what the actual costs are and the "estimates" from those that are politicizing the car are waaaaay off.....Waaaaay high. That's really all I can say without compromising confidences. But look at it this way....If it is as expensive as folks like Mad Scientist are inclined to believe, why would GM's Senior VP of Product Development publicly state that GM is going to focus on EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicles) instead of hybrids? Think the the company actually intends to lose money? And why are other companies suddenly coming to market with similar vehicles? Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery.....Let's try to keep the discussion on what it is....a car.....and not what it is not.....a political football.

GM Plans 500,000 Vehicles with Electrification by 2017

 

[martinjlm]

My car is sooooo much prettier.

Pretty matters.

One more thing about pretty....

Here's the 2014 Cadillac ELR

Same powertrain as the Volt.....now THAT is purty....

 

[Si modo]

My car is sooooo much prettier.

Pretty matters.

One more thing about pretty....

Here's the 2014 Cadillac ELR

Same powertrain as the Volt.....now THAT is purty....

In my world of taste, behemoth and pretty are not the same thing.

 

[PoliticalChic]

....

1. Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But that’s for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.

2. GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger.

a. At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon.

b. A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).

3. In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh)
W303 » New York City Electricity – Con Edison Kwh Charge History


4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup….but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green.

That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED. We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months. With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.

Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.

In cost to travel in electric mode...."the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour" (from the same Consumer's Reports review)...

...and "The mph is not meaningful without knowing a trip’s length, because calculating fuel economy depends on the ratio of electric to gasoline use.
a. We’ve been getting between 23 and 28 mpg, due to the winter’s freeze. The car’s electric range is very susceptible to cold weather since the heater runs on electricity.
b. We’ve also found that an extended highway cruise shortens the electric range. "


....in NYC, at 27 cents kwh, that would be a cost of $3.38 a mile @ 25mpg

....and at the 87 cents kwh, that would be a cost of $10.89 a mile @ 25mpg.


At their guess of gasoline @$3 per gallon....it's cheaper to run the gas mode.


But....if you are in a warm climate....could be the advantage. But, some note a 30% drop in mileage with AC. (Extreme Heat Affecting Chevy Volt Electric Range | AutoGuide.com News)
And, they find the Nissan Leaf cheaper.

 

[tjvh]

We can all rest assured that those Coal powered electricity generating plants will keep the Volt rolling. Hooray for making a difference.

 

[Sallow]

2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).

How many years would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?

It will catch fire first...

No it won't.

 

[martinjlm]

2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).

How many years would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?

It will catch fire first...

No it won't.

You actually wasted your time replying to a lame attempt at humor? You have more patience than I do.

 

[there4eyeM]

How much longer do you figure an electric motor will last than a reciprocating piston engine (an antique design from the 1880s)?

 

[Sunni Man]

...Let's try to keep the discussion on what it is....a car.....and not what it is not.....a political football.

To deny the forcing of the electric car on the American public isn't based on politics is idiotic.

 

[there4eyeM]

To deny that petroleum based energy is political is tragic.

 

[Truthseeker420]

2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).

How many years would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?

With tax credits you can get the Volt for around $30,000.

 

[Sunni Man]

To deny that petroleum based energy is political is tragic.

"tragic"??

Get a grip poindexter..........

 

[Jroc]

....

1. Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But that’s for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.

2. GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger.

a. At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon.

b. A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).

3. In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh)
W303 » New York City Electricity – Con Edison Kwh Charge History


4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup….but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green.

That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED. We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months. With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.

Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.

Pay no mind. She is Conservative and the only posts they accept is.....The Volt must FAIL

We don't want to Volt to fail at all. We just want sales to be market driven not government subsidized. Having said that with the Obama administration is shutting down Coal fired power plants electricity is going way up as Obama promised. Many new EPA regulations are coming

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4]Obama: My Plan Makes Electricity Rates Skyrocket - YouTube[/ame]

 

[KissMy]

Can you run the air conditioner during the summer months while the Volt is on battery power?

Yes you can. The Volt is ALWAYS on electric power. The wheels are always turned by an electric motor. The only purpose the gas engine serves is to power the electric motor if/when you run out of battery power.

The AC never draws off of the gas engine as is the case in conventional cars. Running the AC full blast will reduce your battery range, but otherwise, nothing is different.

I don't believe that is true. The wheels are driven by both gas & electric power. You can run on all electric, gas drive & charge or gas & electric together for max horse power. It uses a planetary, ring & sun gear setup. It also may be possible that the electric motor spins the engine to start it.

It would be nice if they made it like you said that the engine only charged the battery. That way they could make it modular so it & the gas tank could be removed for long periods of local only commuting to save a lot of weight. Or it could be sold without the engine & gas tank. Or have a second battery in place of the engine & gas tank.

 

[martinjlm]

...Let's try to keep the discussion on what it is....a car.....and not what it is not.....a political football.

To deny the forcing of the electric car on the American public isn't based on politics is idiotic.

Who is forcing on the Chinese public? The German public? The French public? The Japanese public? Could it possibly be that American automakers realize that in order to be able to compete in all the major markets in the world they have to be capable of grasping the advancing electrification of the automobile? It's not an issue of politics.....it's an issue of achieving and maintaining a competitive edge.

And at last check, I don't recall seeing any legislation forcing anyone to buy an electric vehicle. Don't like? Don't buy!

 

[Foxfyre]

Yet the five figure subsidies provided courtesy of the tax payer is a factor in those costs.
Yet the less-than-green processes used to build that Volt also have to be a consideration.
And as almost anywhere I go in our part of the world will exceed 25 miles in our area, I would need to use at least some gasoline.

The best information I have found is that the cost of electricity to run the Volt in most areas of the country is about 7 cents per mile. And with the price of gasoline hovering around $3.50 or so, the cost of running a 32 mpg vehicle on gasoline is about 11 cents per mile. At 4 cents per mile difference, it would take a very long time to make up the price tag of the Volt, most especially if you consider the subsidy that we all pay for them.

I get the at or close to the 32 mpg with my 17-year-old Subara Impreza Outback that cost me $11,000 in 1995 and, because it rarely needs replacement parts and I have not utilized intense carbon energy processes required to replace it, I am guessing that my little car has been far more 'green' than any Chevy Volt on the road. And it costs a hell of a lot less. In fact considering the low cost of insurance, maintenance, and fuel for my little car and that it has been paid for now for 15 years, you just can't get any transportation cheaper than that.

 

[Dot Com]

My car is sooooo much prettier.

Pretty matters.

One more thing about pretty....

Here's the 2014 Cadillac ELR

Same powertrain as the Volt.....now THAT is purty....

I like those too/

...Let's try to keep the discussion on what it is....a car.....and not what it is not.....a political football.

To deny the forcing of the electric car on the American public isn't based on politics is idiotic.

Who is forcing on the Chinese public? The German public? The French public? The Japanese public? Could it possibly be that American automakers realize that in order to be able to compete in all the major markets in the world they have to be capable of grasping the advancing electrification of the automobile? It's not an issue of politics.....it's an issue of achieving and maintaining a competitive edge.

And at last check, I don't recall seeing any legislation forcing anyone to buy an electric vehicle. Don't like? Don't buy!

How much longer do you figure an electric motor will last than a reciprocating piston engine (an antique design from the 1880s)?

true. Multi-national co's have to look to global markets as martinjlm mentioned above.

 

[Papageorgio]

When we took delivery of my wife's 2012 Chevrolet Volt back in March, I figured we'd be putting gas in it every 6 weeks or so.

Now, here we are 8-1/2 months and 8,930 miles later and I'm refueling it for the first time. Spent $24.50 for 6.6 gallons of premium (tank is 9.3 gallons, so there was still about 2.7 gallons left)

When I did my first calculations to see whether it made more sense to lease the Volt or go with our second or third choice vehicles (2012 Chevrolet Equinox or 2013 Chevrolet Malibu) I factored in the idea that the first 35 miles would be electrically driven, then I added in gas driven miles. What I did not factor in is that since most of my wife's trips are less than 20 miles, she would be returning home and plugging back in, so by the time she needed to make another trip, she would be back at or near a full charge.

As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas. So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months. That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas. That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.

Glad it works for, it would not be practical for myself as I drive mountain passes and in snow often.

 

[martinjlm]

Can you run the air conditioner during the summer months while the Volt is on battery power?

Yes you can. The Volt is ALWAYS on electric power. The wheels are always turned by an electric motor. The only purpose the gas engine serves is to power the electric motor if/when you run out of battery power.

The AC never draws off of the gas engine as is the case in conventional cars. Running the AC full blast will reduce your battery range, but otherwise, nothing is different.

I don't believe that is true. The wheels are driven by both gas & electric power. You can run on all electric, gas drive & charge or gas & electric together for max horse power. It uses a planetary, ring & sun gear setup. It also may be possible that the electric motor spins the engine to start it.

It is absolutely true. That was the center point of the Volt concept. It does not have any aspect of a planetary step gear transmission in the vehicle (ironically, early in my careers was responsible for writing service procedures for planetary transmissions....even earlier for manufacturing sun gears). What you are describing is how some traditional hybrids work, but not an EREV like the Volt.

From one of the early Chevrolet Press Releases when the car was launched in late 2010......

Electric drive supplies power to the wheels
A 111-kW (149-hp) electric drive unit powers the Volt’s wheels at all times. Positioned under the hood next to the engine, it packages a pair of electric motors and a multi-mode transaxle with continuously variable capability. Unlike a conventional powertrain, there are no step gears within the unit, and no direct mechanical linkage from the engine, through the drive unit to the wheels.