LilOlLady's Everlasting Gobstopper Illegal Immigration Thread

[syrenn]

Did you not read even the little I posted of the article?


Why do you only use partial information to decide your postions?

Funny you of all people should ask that question TM.

I understand you have embarassed yourself and wish to turn this on me but it is very thinly vieled and silly

No quite that simple tm. Or are we being uncivil now?

 

[syrenn]

So when a woman is going through labor in the hospital shes going to be asked to produce a birth certificate to prove she is an American? I wouldn't want the job of having to pester women in labor for documentation.

Ya got 9 months to round one up.

 

[Samson]

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/guideDesc.asp?catid=97&type=issue



Immigration regulations remained stable for the next four decades until everything was radically transformed by the 1965 Immigration Act, which set the ceiling for immigrants from the Western hemisphere at 120,000 per year while earmarking fully 170,000 slots for immigrants from nations outside the Western Hemisphere. For the first time in American history, non-Europeans formed the dominant immigrant group, the new arrivals hailing predominantly from Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean, and the Middle East. Between 1968 and 1993, fully 85 percent of the 16.7 million legal immigrants arriving in the United States during that period came from the Third World – including 47 percent from Latin America and the Caribbean, and 34 percent from Asia.



Do you realize how hard it is to come here legally?

We need to up the number of legal immigrations to make this anywhere near the number the businesses clamour for to run their businesses

I think what you're trying to say is that businesses want to employ more immigrants.

And there's no unemployment in the USA?

 

[LilOlLady]

"Illegal immigrants" - how do other countries deal with it? Quote

Putting things in perspective, here is an excerpt from how Thailand deals with not just illegal immigrants, but those who have overstayed their visa by even just one day:

"It is important to remember that if your visa has expired even for just one day, and you do not surrender but are apprehended by immigration officials or the police, you will automatically be taken to court. If your court hearing is held on a Friday and you pay your fine the same day, in accordance with the court order, it does not mean that your case has ended. The Immigration Bureau still has to pursue your case by deporting you. Therefore, you will need to have a confirmed air ticket together with sufficient money for transportation to the airport. If you cannot meet those requirements, you will be detained in the Immigration Bureau jail until you are able to acquire a confirmed ticket and sufficient cash for the trip to the airport.
"Illegal immigrants" - how do other countries deal with it?


Since our leaders are those who will not do the job of enforcing our immigration laws, maybe we should import foreign entities to do it for them. you know. Jobs that Americans will not do?

 

[syrenn]

LOL, works for me.

 

[WillowTree]

Well, evidently they won't do Wal Mart either. But just wait,, soon we will takce the problem of why the "black" man can't get a job and the illegals can..

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Well, you'll definitely create jobs that way, just think of all the prison guards you'll need if you do that. It'll do wonders towards reinforcing the backbone of America's prison-based economy, but then you also have to keep in mind that in Thailand the illegal immigrant population is 1/6th of what it is in America, proportionally speaking (0.7% vs 4%). Then again, that number was before the financial crisis and the record unemployment that's happening now, after which its estimated that millions have already left on their own.

But hey, that brings about another interesting suggestion - why not let your bankers keep running your economy to the ground, so that there's no jobs, and therefore no illegal aliens will want to come in the first place?!??! That'd be a grand proposal towards saving the average American the intellectually demanding task of pressing "1" for English! And just like your prison idea, there could not possibly be any undesired consequences! =D

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Anyway, more seriously speaking, there's no such thing as jobs "Americans won't do," one of the big myths running around in the immigration debate. Of course Americans would do any job - for the right WAGE. If picking strawberries payed $60 an hour and came with full health benefits, you'd see hundreds of people waiting in lines outside United Farm Workers for a shot at the job. You would only run into trouble at the supermarket, where strawberries would cost $100 a box, demand would totally collapse and all strawberry farms would go bankrupt (lest they were bailed out at your expense), thereby getting rid of not only the formerly-illegal-immigrant jobs, but their managers and owners and those of associated products (i.e. strawberry jam makers, strawberry container makers, strawberry transporting truckers, etc). But you can be sure that they would definitely do those jobs, for the right amount of money. If there's nobody who would pay that wage, then there will not be a job for anybody in the first place though.

That leads to the second giant myth about immigration: "they take our JERBS!" This point of view seems to think that the job supply is some static figure, there's X amount of jobs of which Y is stolen by immigrants, leaving Americans with X-Y amount of jobs. This is completely false: there is no set number of jobs in the country - the fact that there's some jobs being done or not being done may increase or decrease the amount of jobs available at any given time, and this figure is constantly changing. Like we saw, because there are a bunch of low-wage illegals picking strawberries and a range of other agricultural products, this makes possible the jobs of the owners, managers, transporters, container-makers for that particular industry.

Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's not like every country has to make everything, there's no reason why the US should be producing its own food if it can't pay its legal workers enough to make it worthwhile for them and simultaneously cheap enough for anyone to buy it. If you think its worth it to bankrupt the agricultural industry (considering they're already subsidized to their eyeballs and STILL need low-wage illegals to be competitive in any way shape or form), then you should go gung-ho in writing your congressman about it and closing the border.

 

[Nate]

You make some great points Epsilon but IMHO, cheap labor in the agricultural sector is stifling innovation... Before, when farmers needed to keep competative and not be ran out of business those wily bastards invented. If they had the number of hand pickers back then that they seem to have today we probably wouldn't have the combine harvester, transplanters, cultivator, etc. Also, with NAFTA in place these same farm hands could be helping the fields in their own country without it costing us much more.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

You make some great points Epsilon but IMHO, cheap labor in the agricultural sector is stifling innovation... Before, when farmers needed to keep competative and not be ran out of business those wily bastards invented. If they had the number of hand pickers back then that they seem to have today we probably wouldn't have the combine harvester, transplanters, cultivator, etc. Also, with NAFTA in place these same farm hands could be helping the fields in their own country without it costing us much more.

Well, that's not entirely true... Depending on what time in history you're thinking of, that "before" DID have a massive number of hand-pickers willing to work for next to nothing - in the 1930s they called them "Okies" or "Arkies" instead of Mexicans though, and a famous, if fictional, example would be Tom Joad and his family (because those Americans actually would work for the wage). Many of these dust bowlers worked at the exact same jobs that are occupied by today's illegals. And if they weren't there, it's not at all clear what "innovation" there would be, bankruptcy would be more likely [again, agriculture in much of the developed world is essentially a government-supported zombie, and is therefore doubtful to hold much innovation in this day and age].

Many crops simply can't be machine-picked anyway, and even if they were that sort of capital-intensive agriculture doesn't really create many long-term jobs. In any case, considering the US's weakening manufacturing base you'd probably end up buying the machines from China (because its cheaper), eliminating the illegal's jobs while simultaneously creating a grand total of 0 jobs at home.

And about that last point, in the event that the border's closed, and the strawberry industry moves to Mexico that might be great for Mexicans but I don't see how it would be of any benefit to Americans. Again, merely less jobs in the States in total.

 

[LilOlLady]

Well, you'll definitely create jobs that way, just think of all the prison guards you'll need if you do that. It'll do wonders towards reinforcing the backbone of America's prison-based economy, but then you also have to keep in mind that in Thailand the illegal immigrant population is 1/6th of what it is in America, proportionally speaking (0.7% vs 4%). Then again, that number was before the financial crisis and the record unemployment that's happening now, after which its estimated that millions have already left on their own.

But hey, that brings about another interesting suggestion - why not let your bankers keep running your economy to the ground, so that there's no jobs, and therefore no illegal aliens will want to come in the first place?!??! That'd be a grand proposal towards saving the average American the intellectually demanding task of pressing "1" for English! And just like your prison idea, there could not possibly be any undesired consequences! =D

Thailand don't have an illegal immigrant problem because they immediate take care of visa overstayers and illegal aliens. We would not have 20 million illegals either if we enforced our immigration laws like Thailand. uh?
Bankers have nothing to do with bad choices we make. Banker caused the economy to fail:
Illegal immigration is destroying us and the future of our children. A direct correlation between illegal immigration and our economy failing.

 

[LilOlLady]

Well, you'll definitely create jobs that way, just think of all the prison guards you'll need if you do that. It'll do wonders towards reinforcing the backbone of America's prison-based economy, but then you also have to keep in mind that in Thailand the illegal immigrant population is 1/6th of what it is in America, proportionally speaking (0.7% vs 4%). Then again, that number was before the financial crisis and the record unemployment that's happening now, after which its estimated that millions have already left on their own.

But hey, that brings about another interesting suggestion - why not let your bankers keep running your economy to the ground, so that there's no jobs, and therefore no illegal aliens will want to come in the first place?!??! That'd be a grand proposal towards saving the average American the intellectually demanding task of pressing "1" for English! And just like your prison idea, there could not possibly be any undesired consequences! =D

Can you tell me how bankers run the economy into the ground?
The economy has gone bad for several years and they are still coming because we take care of them through their anchor babies.

 

[Ernie S.]

Well, you'll definitely create jobs that way, just think of all the prison guards you'll need if you do that.

snip (worthless drivel removed)

You wouldn't need many new guards at all. Word would get around rather quickly and that big whooshing sound you'd hear is the sound of illegals tear-assing for the border in record numbers.
Added incentive would be to seize all US assets of illegals in partial repayment for services used while here illegally. Any remaining balance would be billed to their country of origin.

 

[LilOlLady]

10% of Utah Households Receiving Welfare Benefits Have Illegal Aliens
Thursday, August 5, 2010, 11:09 AM EST - posted on NumbersUSA

Utah State House
According to new state data in Utah, at least 10% of welfare benefits in the state are going to households that contain illegal aliens. Under state law, illegal aliens cannot qualify for welfare expenses, but because many of the children of illegal aliens were born in the United States and are citizens, along with other scenarios, illegal aliens are indeed receiving state benefits.

..................................................................................

"That is just one of many, many issues showing we need a crackdown on illegal immigration," said state Rep. Stephen Sandstrom who intends on offering Arizona-style legislation during the next state session. "I believe this is just the tip of the iceberg. Because of widespread fraud with Social Security numbers, I think a lot more illegal immigrants are applying for benefits with numbers that are stolen or made up."
10% of Utah Households Receiving Welfare Benefits Have Illegal Aliens | NumbersUSA - For Lower Immigration Levels

 

[José]

Originally posted by Ernie S.
Any remaining balance would be billed to their country of origin.

And the bill would be subsequently returned with strong recommendations to be shoved up your ass together with a small note clarifying that neither Mexico nor any other country in the world have absolutely nothing to do and cannot be punished for the sovereign decision taken by the democratically elected US government to ignore its own immigration laws for 30 years.

 

[Ernie S.]

Originally posted by Ernie S.
Any remaining balance would be billed to their country of origin.

And the bill would be subsequently returned with strong recommendations to be shoved up your ass together with a small note clarifying that neither Mexico nor any other country in the world have absolutely nothing to do and cannot be punished for the sovereign decision taken by the democratically elected US government to ignore its own immigration laws for 30 years.

Huh?

 

[Ernie S.]

So you thank me for my post? According to US immigration law, illegal immigrants are here illegally. Mexico is responsible for there being so many illegal Mexicans here. Besides the fact that Mexico is a corrupt hell hole, they actually publish guides on how to cross the border.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Ernie S.
So you thank me for my post? According to US immigration law, illegal immigrants are here illegally. Mexico is responsible for there being so many illegal Mexicans here. Besides the fact that Mexico is a corrupt hell hole, they actually publish guides on how to cross the border.

Ernie, if you take the time to read my posts on this matter you'll see I'm absolutely fair to America, I'm of the opinion that America has the right to implement even polemic measures such as mass deportations of illegals.

Unfortunately I cannot say the same about your treatment of Mexico.

1 - Mexico cannot prevent its citizens from leaving the country freely because this goes against all the fundamental principles of democratic states. This is what totalitarian countries like North Korea do.

2 - Mexico cannot be blamed for being an underdeveloped, third world country. If America wants to blame Mexico for its poverty it should first turn that dirty poor country of Afghanistan into a developed nation since the country is currently under US control.

AMERICA HAS ABSOLUTELY NO AUTHORITY TO DEMAND PROSPERITY FROM MEXICO IF SHE CANNOT BRING THAT SAME PROSPERITY TO ITS OWN "COLONIES".

THOSE WHO WANT TO POINT THE FINGER OF BLAME AT OTHERS SHOULD BE THE FIRST ONES TO SET A GOOD EXAMPLE!!!!

3 - According to the international protocol that informally rules border relations between neighboring countries, in the absence of a broad comphehensive border agreement, each country is resposible for its own side of the border.

I urge you to get a hold of your totally out of control patriotism and try to treat Mexico in a fair manner just like I treat America, Ernie. : )

 

[mudwhistle]

So you thank me for my post? According to US immigration law, illegal immigrants are here illegally. Mexico is responsible for there being so many illegal Mexicans here. Besides the fact that Mexico is a corrupt hell hole, they actually publish guides on how to cross the border.

Millions of our dollars go into Mexico every year.

Their President had the gall to chastise us for our laws yet he knows his are draconian in comparison.

And all the while he was talking smack about us Obama was standing back there with a smug grin on his face.

Is there any wonder why I don't like the prick.

 

[José]

Originally posted by mudwhistle
Millions of our dollars go into Mexico every year.

Sorry to burst your bubble but you got the wrong country. Millions of US dollars go to ISRAEL every year, not Mexico.

The amount of foreign aid given to Mexico in 1 YEAR pales into insignificance when compared to what Israel gets in 30 DAYS.