Liberal Love affair with Unions

[Skull Pilot]

To this day, I don't understand the love affair some of you have with unions.

Many of you rail incessantly that corporations that scam and scheme to infringe upon "rights" of workers should be subject to more governmental control, that salaries should be subject to government imposed maximums, that business should be subject to ever increasing government regulation and over sight.

But what about your beloved Unions? there are endless reports and yes lawsuits against unions for wrongful discrimination, intimidation , illegal fines and other activities, not to mention the same kind of corruption and backroom political deals that you accuse business of.

Do you believe it is legal and ethical to force an employee to pay union dues if that employee does not want to join a union?

Isn't denying employment to a person who does not choose to join a union discrimination on the same order as not hiring them because of race creed or color?

Right to workgroups have been reporting union abuses, violence and intimidation and providing legal representation for people who have had their rights violated by unions and union members.

Unions, particularly the UAW has taken right to work groups such as the National Right to Work Legal Foundation to court to attempt to obtain lists of contributors who support the foundations fight for voluntary unionism.

Worker Advocate: How Dare You Threaten National Right to Work and Its Supporters on National TV, Mr. Gettelfinger! | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation

Angry auto union boss blames voluntary unionism group for the auto industry's problems, wants a list of the group's financial backers

Mark Mix, President of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, made the following statement today in response to United Auto Workers (UAW) union president Ron Gettelfinger's angry lashing out on national television at the legal foundation's efforts to defend workers from forced unionism abuse:

"How dare you blame the current debacle in the automotive business on efforts to give workers the right to join or not join a union. These problems have been caused by the forced unionism stranglehold you currently enjoy.

"Make no mistake; you will never get your hands on the list of the National Right to Work Foundation's contributors....

Gettelfinger was referencing a 13-year legal battle by the UAW and 12 other international unions intended to force the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation to reveal the names and addresses of its contributors. During the litigation, union lawyers finally admitted they wanted to send the contributor list to local union chiefs all over the country. They wanted to make “discreet inquiries” about the contributors in their areas.


Just what kind of "discreet" inquiries do you think these union thugs...I mean representatives want to make into the lives of those who don't support forced unionism?

Here are just a few more union highlights

Agency Trial Judge Won’t Punish Union Officials for Threatening Non-Striking PVHMC Nurses with Fines, Jail | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation

Worker Seeks Injunction to Prevent Unwanted Union from Acquiring Confidential Personal Information | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation

SEIU Union Hit with FEC Complaint for Illegal Political Fundraising Scheme | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation

Feds to Prosecute UAW Union Bosses for Blocking Job Promotions for Non-union Members | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation

those are a minuscule sample of legal actions being taken against unions just this year.

now what about Unions and corrupt politicians?

It seems there is some evidence that the SEIU is involved in some particularly dirty deals with our good friend Blagojevich.

[youtube]mkz0zjqy51U&eurl[/youtube]

So the next time any of you want to extoll the virtue and benevolence of unions think of this woman

Worker Files Civil Damages Lawsuit for Massive Union Harassment Campaign | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation

Hartford, Connecticut (July 24, 2008) – Today, National Right to Work Foundation staff attorneys are filing a state court lawsuit on behalf of a Connecticut resident who suffered from an ugly campaign of retaliation at the hands of area union officials. The suit alleges that union militants conspired to commit fraud and identity theft in order to bombard Patricia Pelletier with hundreds of mail-order magazines, violating her rights and sticking her with thousands of dollars in subscription and mail order fees.

These few examples show that unions will go to any length necessary to intimidate those who believe they have the right NOT to join a union.

Remember that when the Unions want card check rather than secret ballots.

 

[DiamondDave]

Unions once had their place.... that is no longer the case

 

[Lycurgus]

Skull, I sure understand your opinion. I rarely was able to experience the up side of labors unions, specifically the UAW. However, when I did, it was honestly appreciated.

Unions did have their place and in my opinion, if they truly would do what they are meant to do, they could still be very productive both in the workplace and in the marketplace.

Sadly though this is not the case and the dark side of the UAW which sadly greatly now over shadows the positive side, is a clear indicator that they are not only a lost cause, but, very counter productive and a true threat to American companies competing in the global market.

I wish there were some feasible way to get the unions to restructure themselves to be what they were intended, but, that would mean a complete restructure and 100% all new leaders from the line on up.

It just isn't going to happen and the more the liberals pander to them, the more they pamper them, the worse things will be for this nation.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Although I'm not a liberal I certainly understand the "love affair" with unions.

As an African-American, I know the mass exodus from the south to the north had a lot to do with unions .. as well as getting away from the racist insanity of the south. For the first time in more than 364 years of existence in America, blacks enjoyed fair and equitable wages and benefits because of unions .. that was particularly true of the UAW and AFL/CIO.

Unions were also the driving force behind workplace safety guidelines and OSHA requirements. The American worker never had it so good until unions stepped in to ensure their rights.

Today, I live in a "right to work" state, which is the same as the right to discriminate, the right of corporations to do whatever they want with workers.

The decline of the American worker can be traced to the day Ronald Reagan took office and set upon a course to destroy unions and the rights of American workers along with it.

Although there have been some abuses by unions, overall the American worker was much better off with them.

The notion that "it's the workers fault" is mindless in my opinion.

 

[Diuretic]

Organised labour has never been so relevant. Despite the propaganda, the experience of ordinary people around the world will reflect that. When organised labour moves from facilitating capitalism, which it has to do now, to facilitating socialism, which it must do in the future, organised labour will change its nature. It will still protect ordinary working people, but the framework will have changed.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Organised labour has never been so relevant. Despite the propaganda, the experience of ordinary people around the world will reflect that. When organised labour moves from facilitating capitalism, which it has to do now, to facilitating socialism, which it must do in the future, organised labour will change its nature. It will still protect ordinary working people, but the framework will have changed.

So forced unionism is the answer to all the problems of the market?

Do you believe that one should be free NOT to join a union?

Do you think promotions, pay raises and other benefits being denied to those who choose not to join a union is right?

Unions preach about rights of workers but only want to protect the rights of those that pay union dues and collect those dues by force and intimidation if needs be.

Is it right for unions to punish those who refuse to strike?

I really don't care about the "around the world" mentality. These union abuses are happening here in the US where people are supposed to have right not to be harassed and intimidated by any group, including labor unions.

If a religious organization sued to obtain financial records of people donating to planned parenthood so they could discreetly investigate who supports PP, would you allow it? would there even be a discussion?

Yet the UAW has been trying for 13 years to obtain lists of contributors of organizations that support voluntary unionism rather than forced compliance.

Unions are as corrupt as any other group yet they are revered by many.

it makes no sense to me.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Unions once had their place.... that is no longer the case

Totally disagree. Right now, unions, like most organizations of humans are not doing completely what they should. They are, however, the only answer to giving a million voiceless people a voice that has some kind of power.

Right now, the RNC is trying to destroy the unions completely. If they ever succeed, you will not even have a minimum wage. You will get what they want to pay based on how cheap they can import labor.

Rich corporations are no more honest or moral than regular people. They will go for the maximum profit just like they did in the pre union days.

People on these threads have said that we wouldn't have a job without corporations. No shit sherlock. But corporations couldn't exist without workers. The problem is the corporations hold all the power without a union movement. You think they won't go back to child labor and whatever works in this country if they could get away with it.

My experience with the labor union that I deal with as management has been disapointing in that they spend too much time protecting the guilty few and not enough time working for the innocent many. They have, however, maintained a good working wage for our tradespeople that is not matched on the outside in non union jobs here in Florida.

There are those in this county's businesses that would return US to a feudal system of serfdom and nobles if they could. Damn near as it is.

Why do they hate and fear the middle class since it is the middle class that makes these bastards wealthy?

Greed is just one of their stupid stereotypes.

 

[Red Dawn]

Do you believe it is legal and ethical to force an employee to pay union dues if that employee does not want to join a union?

Yes, if they want to accept the same pay and benefits package that the Union spent time, money, and resources to negotiate on behalf of their dues-paying members.

Otherwise, that dude should turn down the union compensation package, and walk into management's office by themselves, and try to individually negotiate a pension plan, healthcare plan, and salary by themselves.

If you don't want to pay union dues, don't accept a pension plan and salary that the union and its dues paying members paid to negotiate for.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yes, if they want to accept the same pay and benefits package that the Union spent time, money, and resources to negotiate on behalf of their dues-paying members.

Otherwise, that dude should turn down the union compensation package, and walk into management's office by themselves, and try to individually negotiate a pension plan, healthcare plan, and salary by themselves.

If you don't want to pay union dues, don't accept a pension plan and salary that the union and its dues paying members paid to negotiate for.

The employer offers that package not the union.

If an employer wants to offer the same package of benefits to a nonunion worker as it does to a union worker, what business is it of the union to interfere?

But as far as union provided benefits are concerned, I agree.

 

[Red Dawn]

The employer offers that package not the union.

If an employer wants to offer the same package of benefits to a nonunion worker as it does to a union worker, what business is it of the union to interfere?

But as far as union provided benefits are concerned, I agree.

The company offers a compensation package that the union spent money, time, and resources to negotiate. Money that came from the pockets of dues-paying members. And statistically speaking, a union compensation package is generally better than a compensation package any one individual could have negotiated individually for themselves.

So, its your position that some union-hating employees should get something for nothing. They should enjoy the compensation package the union spent money and resources negotiating for, for free. While letting their union-supporting fellow employees pay for it all.

Why do republicans always think you should be able to get something for nothing?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

The company offers a compensation package that the union spent money, time, and resources to negotiate. Money that came from the pockets of dues-paying members. And statistically speaking, a union compensation package is generally better than a compensation package any one individual could have negotiated individually for themselves.

So, its your position that some union-hating employees should get something for nothing. They should enjoy the compensation package the union spent money and resources negotiating for, for free. While letting their union-supporting fellow employees pay for it all.

Why do republicans always think you should be able to get something for nothing?

Very well said.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Totally disagree. Right now, unions, like most organizations of humans are not doing completely what they should. They are, however, the only answer to giving a million voiceless people a voice that has some kind of power.

Right now, the RNC is trying to destroy the unions completely. If they ever succeed, you will not even have a minimum wage. You will get what they want to pay based on how cheap they can import labor.

Rich corporations are no more honest or moral than regular people. They will go for the maximum profit just like they did in the pre union days.

People on these threads have said that we wouldn't have a job without corporations. No shit sherlock. But corporations couldn't exist without workers. The problem is the corporations hold all the power without a union movement. You think they won't go back to child labor and whatever works in this country if they could get away with it.

My experience with the labor union that I deal with as management has been disapointing in that they spend too much time protecting the guilty few and not enough time working for the innocent many. They have, however, maintained a good working wage for our tradespeople that is not matched on the outside in non union jobs here in Florida.

There are those in this county's businesses that would return US to a feudal system of serfdom and nobles if they could. Damn near as it is.

Why do they hate and fear the middle class since it is the middle class that makes these bastards wealthy?

Greed is just one of their stupid stereotypes.

Most excellent comment indeed.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The company offers a compensation package that the union spent money, time, and resources to negotiate. Money that came from the pockets of dues-paying members. And statistically speaking, a union compensation package is generally better than a compensation package any one individual could have negotiated individually for themselves.

So, its your position that some union-hating employees should get something for nothing. They should enjoy the compensation package the union spent money and resources negotiating for, for free. While letting their union-supporting fellow employees pay for it all.

Why do republicans always think you should be able to get something for nothing?

Too bad.

the union bargained with an employer, they have no legal right to stop that employer from offering the same or an even better compensation package to a nonunion worker.

In some cases a nonunion worker may be required to pay a level of dues that only covers the cost of collective bargaining but does not cover any other union activity not involved in collective bargaining such as political activity.

and again, if I or anyone bargains for a contract, there is no legal protection that will ensure that same or better contract will not be offered to another.

and it has nothing to do with "hate" why are you all so quick to rely on emotion and labels here?

A person should have the right NOT to join an organization that will take money from him. If a person chooses to exercise his rights by NOT joining a union, that should be respected by those very unions that fight for so called rights of everyone.

if a person chooses to cross a picket line, even if he is a member of a union, because he would rather not see his family go hungry, he should not be subject to illegal fines, threats and violence that unions are famous for.

Unions do not have the right to recruit through intimidation.

 

[DiamondDave]

Unions are not the only power and voice.. we have anti-discrimination laws and we have laws that protect the workers.... Employers will do what it takes, pay wise and benefit wise, to land the types of employees they need..

In the distant past, the unions were the only voice and power... this is no longer the case...

 

[Lycurgus]

I could fill a good size hall up with UAW union members, many life long, meaning retired, who are not happy with their union because they have needed them and more times than not, the union fell short. There are also the many other stories. Further, the UAW at least the GM plant I am familiar with, did and does a poor job of managing it's members.

Nevertheless, everything has it's strong points and weak spots. I think this current situation is a very good opportunity for many sectors to correct some things, learn to work more productively and more in tune with each other. A well ran union which understands the meaning of win/win and keeps that goal the focus can do some good things and offer it's members many good benefits and opportunities.

However, that has not been the case with the UAW. In turn, the management holds it's baggage in this deal, as does the government. They are all at a cross roads, they can take this and not just revitalize the industry and products, but, they can revolutionize the union / management relationship! Or, they can be pacified for a while financially and still end up failing or at least never being the core companies they are now.

As for the republican / democrat debate in all of this, both sides have valid points! They too need to change their thinking, both of them!

Boy I wish I had a buck for every UAW check we have cashed in the last 50 some years. Hell, I'd go by a new GM truck! or two or three ................ A great many good people and families have been hurt over the years by the decline of this industry and a great many more will be.

 

[Ravi]

No one is forced to work for a unionized company.

 

[DiamondDave]

No one is forced to work for a unionized company.

But people who wish to exercise their freedom to work for a 'unionized company' without joining the union, are shit on more than a person into scat... and lord knows the pressure unions try and put on persons to join (and now without secret ballots, and the DEM support of that in union decisions/votes) it gets even more scary

I have worked in a telecommunications company that had both a union and non-union presence.. of course, I worked on the non-union side... and the company can operate in both spheres... but many of the big unions, such as the UAW, snub upon any non-union presence..

 

[midcan5]

Whenever I see these sort of posts I wonder if the corporate conservative tool is not a poorly programmed bot, robot that is. The creator of the bot left out history, greed, human nature, and forgot how we came to be a society with a strong middle class. That the conservative republicans want to destroy the middle class only makes them tools of corporate power.


CEPR - America Since 1980: A Right Turn Leading to a Dead End

 

[Skull Pilot]

Totally disagree. Right now, unions, like most organizations of humans are not doing completely what they should. They are, however, the only answer to giving a million voiceless people a voice that has some kind of power.

And unions will threaten and intimidate those voiceless people to give them a voice.

Right now, the RNC is trying to destroy the unions completely. If they ever succeed, you will not even have a minimum wage. You will get what they want to pay based on how cheap they can import labor.

That makes absolutely no sense. a corporation that destroys the workforce in order to increase profits also destroys it's market. If all these evil businesses as you say will not pay people, who will buy their products?

Rich corporations are no more honest or moral than regular people. They will go for the maximum profit just like they did in the pre union days.

and unions are just as dishonest and corrupt.

People on these threads have said that we wouldn't have a job without corporations. No shit sherlock. But corporations couldn't exist without workers. The problem is the corporations hold all the power without a union movement. You think they won't go back to child labor and whatever works in this country if they could get away with it.

I disagree. Huge corporations are not necessary to have jobs. Small businesses provide over 80% of the jobs in this country not big corps. most small businessmen I know understand that it makes sense to value your employees, but they also understand that the least productive employees should be let go. That's something unions haven't seemed to learn.

The idea that all of a sudden in a world without unions that we in this country would put 6 year old's to work in coal mines is nothing more than fear mongering of the worst kind.

We have child labor laws on the books, and you are of the mind that only the unions are keeping them there?

If unions disappeared tomorrow, every business would all of a sudden pay 1 dollar an hour to its employees and re institute the company store?

People today would not work for that kind of pay and i will give unions the credit they are due for their past work but today, unions have become just as bad as the businesses they supposedly protect people from.

My experience with the labor union that I deal with as management has been disapointing in that they spend too much time protecting the guilty few and not enough time working for the innocent many. They have, however, maintained a good working wage for our tradespeople that is not matched on the outside in non union jobs here in Florida.

My experience with unions is that the people who do the best work and actually merit pay increases don't get them because the union props up the worst workers at the expense of the best.

My short stint in a union job proved this to me.

I would rather work through lunch in most cases so I can leave an hour earlier. there was no reason for me to be forced to take an hour unpaid lunch as i was an hourly grunt labor employee. I asked the shop foreman if I could do just that and he said he would write me up for disciplinary reasons because I wanted to work through lunch. I tried to explain that i took night classes and that working through lunch allowed me to go home and shower before class and i could easily scarf down a sandwich on a paid 15 minute break. But typical of union strong arm tactics, i was forced to sit on my ass for an hour every day because the union said so.

There are those in this county's businesses that would return US to a feudal system of serfdom and nobles if they could. Damn near as it is.

Not worth responding to such an inane statement.

Why do they hate and fear the middle class since it is the middle class that makes these bastards wealthy?

Greed is just one of their stupid stereotypes.

Why do you have so little faith in people to think they need to be forced to join a union?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Whenever I see these sort of posts I wonder if the corporate conservative tool is not a poorly programmed bot, robot that is. The creator of the bot left out history, greed, human nature, and forgot how we came to be a society with a strong middle class. That the conservative republicans want to destroy the middle class only makes them tools of corporate power.


CEPR - America Since 1980: A Right Turn Leading to a Dead End

but somehow union leadership is immune to all the ills of human nature that everyone else must suffer?