Let's Drop the Partisan Knee-Jerk Reactions and Look at the Ukraine Negotiations Realistically and Fairly

[JoeB131]

Just left behind countless thousands of dead men, women and children.

But you mean recently, right?

I guess.

Yes, a lot of people died after they attacked us on 9/11.

They probably shouldn't have done that.

 

[pknopp]

I guess.

Yes, a lot of people died after they attacked us on 9/11.

They probably shouldn't have done that.

And a lot died that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

Odd you would argue in one thread for the elimination of the death penalty but then defend our indiscriminate killing here.

 

[JoeB131]

Lol. Another one. We mass murder, torture, destroy and Dumb Joe asks a dumb question.

You do know the US controls much of the world’s nations right? It doesn’t have to occupy them, though we still occupy Germany, Japan, and SK along with hundreds of foreign military bases scattered across the planet.

So, um, we "control" South Korea? Really? You'd think we'd manage it better so they didn't take all our jobs.

you have a child like view of international relations, don't you?

 

[JoeB131]

And a lot died that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

Then they should have gotten the fuck out of the way.

 

[pknopp]

Then they should have gotten the fuck out of the way.

This is what politics does to a brain. The death penalty is wrong but then you defend the indiscriminate killing of innocent people.

 

[rightwinger]

Good God another one.

Do you not know of the many nations the US has invaded, bombed, couped, sanctioned, and committed enormous war crimes…including torture???

Americans are the dumbest MFers on the planet.

Yes we did

But we did not do it to claim territory

 

[gipper]

I guess.

Yes, a lot of people died after they attacked us on 9/11.

They probably shouldn't have done that.

They? Who’s they?

 

[pknopp]

Yes we did

But we did not do it to claim territory

Lately.

 

[gipper]

Yes we did

But we did not do it to claim territory

Lol. Only because we didn’t have to. The empire controls them by other means. Like overthrowing a democratically elected government and installing a right wing dictator. We’ve done that many times.

 

[gipper]

So, um, we "control" South Korea? Really? You'd think we'd manage it better so they didn't take all our jobs.

you have a child like view of international relations, don't you?

If you don’t know the US has many vassal states, like all of Western Europe, Japan, and SK I can’t help you.

 

[JoeB131]

Lol. Only because we didn’t have to. The empire controls them by other means. Like overthrowing a democratically elected government and installing a right wing dictator. We’ve done that many times.

Really, okay.

Let's look at a list of those "Many times".

Chile. Except.. um, no, not really. Allende never got more than 33% of the vote and was ruling as a dictator in defiance of agreements he made with the Chilean Congress.

Um. Iran. Again, no, not really. Mosaddegh was toppled by his own military after he tried to depose the reigning monarch, disband parliament, and rule as a dictator.


So what else do you have?

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Just left behind countless thousands of dead men, women and children.

But you mean recently, right?

You mean the German invaders. Yeah, we did that well. Let it be a lesson.

 

[Dekster]

On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.

It has to look like Trump/America shafted Ukraine or else Ukraine will be at perpetual risk. They have to come out of this looking more like not an American ally that wouldn't want to be in NATO than as the 51st state.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Ukraine will join NATO during Trump's term.

 

[pknopp]

Ukraine will join NATO during Trump's term.

Which means in four years people will still be arguing over how to stop the war.

 

[gipper]

Really, okay.

Let's look at a list of those "Many times".

Chile. Except.. um, no, not really. Allende never got more than 33% of the vote and was ruling as a dictator in defiance of agreements he made with the Chilean Congress.

Um. Iran. Again, no, not really. Mosaddegh was toppled by his own military after he tried to depose the reigning monarch, disband parliament, and rule as a dictator.


So what else do you have?

BS. The US and GB overthrew Mosaddegh and installed a right wing dictator, who allowed big oil to steal Iran’s oil. It’s been done in central and South America several times. Hawaii, Philippines, Cuba, Ukraine, Libya, Syria……

They’ve been trying to overthrow Cuba and Venezuela for decades.

Com’n Joe! You know this stuff. You have to let go of the myths you were told in government grade school and get real. A quick internet search is all that’s needed.

“US-Gate”? Overthrowing Other People’s Governments: The Master List of U.S. “Regime Changes”​

Instances of the United States overthrowing, or attempting to overthrow, a foreign government since the Second World War. (* indicates successful ouster of a government)

• China 1949 to early 1960s
• Albania 1949-53
• East Germany 1950s
• Iran 1953 *
• Guatemala 1954 *
• Costa Rica mid-1950s
• Syria 1956-7
• Egypt 1957
• Indonesia 1957-8
• British Guiana 1953-64 *
• Iraq 1963 *
• North Vietnam 1945-73
• Cambodia 1955-70 *
• Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
• Ecuador 1960-63 *
• Congo 1960 *
• France 1965
• Brazil 1962-64 *
• Dominican Republic 1963 *
• Cuba 1959 to present
• Bolivia 1964 *
• Indonesia 1965 *
• Ghana 1966 *
• Chile 1964-73 *
• Greece 1967 *
• Costa Rica 1970-71
• Bolivia 1971 *
• Australia 1973-75 *
• Angola 1975, 1980s
• Zaire 1975
• Portugal 1974-76 *
• Jamaica 1976-80 *
• Seychelles 1979-81
• Chad 1981-82 *
• Grenada 1983 *
• South Yemen 1982-84
• Suriname 1982-84
• Fiji 1987 *
• Libya 1980s
• Nicaragua 1981-90 *
• Panama 1989 *
• Bulgaria 1990 *
• Albania 1991 *
• Iraq 1991
• Afghanistan 1980s *
• Somalia 1993
• Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
• Ecuador 2000 *
• Afghanistan 2001 *
• Venezuela 2002 *
• Iraq 2003 *
• Haiti 2004 *
• Somalia 2007 to present
• Libya 2011*
• Syria 2012

https://www.globalresearch.ca/overt...the-master-list-of-u-s-regime-changes/5400829

 

[Delldude]

Putin questions Trumps resolve

He talks big but will never follow up. Putin knows time is on his side.
Trump will eventually lose interest and walk away

I thought Putin was Trump's boy.

 

[rightwinger]

I thought Putin was Trump's boy.

You have it backwards

 

[rightwinger]

Which means in four years people will still be arguing over how to stop the war.

It is really up to Putin

Right now he has no reason to stop the war

 

[Delldude]

You have it backwards

Regardless...... Bff's