Let's Drop the Partisan Knee-Jerk Reactions and Look at the Ukraine Negotiations Realistically and Fairly

[Stann]

They tried that one before

But I didn’t see the U.S. invading Cuba either

I remember JFK telling them to remove the missiles or else. The threat was enough. He wasn't going to back down , Russia did.

 

[Old Rocks]

I remember JFK telling them to remove the missiles or else. The threat was enough. He wasn't going to back down , Russia did.

How well I remember that. In uniform on base when we stopped those ships off of Cuba. Ever spend a day wondering if you will even see the flash of the bomb that kills you? But the Soviets backed down, and Russia is just bluffing about their nuclear weapons. In a nuclear exchange, Russia would completely cease to exist. We need to put military in Ukraine, and tell Russia to stay within it's borders. Or else.

 

[Delldude]

I remember JFK telling them to remove the missiles or else. The threat was enough. He wasn't going to back down , Russia did.

Or else?

You forget the part where he agreed to remove the Jupiter C missiles in Italy and Turkey?

That's what started the Cuban missile crisis .

 

[Ringo]

Trump needs to admit Ukraine to NATO

How about admit California and Texas to Mexico?

 

[rightwinger]

As weakened as Russia is, such an assertion would scare Vlad to the table. But trump won't make even such a hint. He is still hoping Russia wins the war. He is even offering trade deals to Russia to ease their economic woes...while he attacks our allies with tariffs. Such it is with Tyrants.

Putin questions Trumps resolve

He talks big but will never follow up. Putin knows time is on his side.
Trump will eventually lose interest and walk away

 

[Ringo]

But the Soviets backed down, and Russia is just bluffing about their nuclear weapons.

Both sides backed down, you illiterate idiot. The US has removed missiles from Turkey.

 

[JoeB131]

On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.

Axis Mikey would have praised Chamberlain for the Munich Agreement.

 

[JoeB131]

None of which would have ever been necessary if we had simply stayed out of the equation completely.

The war only happened because we backed Ukraine joining NATO and being willing to fund the war.

Except no one backed Ukraine joining NATO.

As far as our obligation, Ukraine gave up their nukes on the US promise to protect their borders.

 

[rightwinger]

How about admit California and Texas to Mexico?

What a stupid comparison

 

[pknopp]

Except no one backed Ukraine joining NATO.

As far as our obligation, Ukraine gave up their nukes on the US promise to protect their borders.

Ukraine never had control of the nukes. Russia did.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/article/3456385/biden-speaks-on-ukraines-future-with-nato-in-vilnius/

 

[JoeB131]

Ukraine never had control of the nukes. Russia did.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/article/3456385/biden-speaks-on-ukraines-future-with-nato-in-vilnius/

Right. In the middle of their territory with units of men from all over the former USSR, but Russia had total control, which is why Russia came to the US hat in hand to get them back.

 

[rightwinger]

Ukraine never had control of the nukes. Russia did.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/article/3456385/biden-speaks-on-ukraines-future-with-nato-in-vilnius/

Russia never had control
USSR did

 

[pknopp]

Right. In the middle of their territory with units of men from all over the former USSR, but Russia had total control, which is why Russia came to the US hat in hand to get them back.

Russia had operational control.

 

[pknopp]

Russia never had control
USSR did

Ukraine never did.

 

[gipper]

Interfering in politics is one thing , invading a neighboring country and committing continuous war crimes is quite another.

Good God another one.

Do you not know of the many nations the US has invaded, bombed, couped, sanctioned, and committed enormous war crimes…including torture???

Americans are the dumbest MFers on the planet.

 

[JoeB131]

Good God another one.

Do you not know of the many nations the US has invaded, bombed, couped, sanctioned, and committed enormous war crimes…including torture???

Americans are the dumbest MFers in the planet.

And tell me, how much territory did we take from any of these countries we've invaded?

Oh, what? We've taken none?

Funny, that.

 

[pknopp]

And tell me, how much territory did we take from any of these countries we've invaded?

Oh, what? We've taken none?

Funny, that.

Just left behind countless thousands of dead men, women and children.

But you mean recently, right?

 

[Zavulon]

How about admit California and Texas to Mexico?

Not only Texas and California.
It's Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and part of Wyoming - for starters. And as the second goal - "total decolonisation of North America".

 

[Zavulon]

And tell me, how much territory did we take from any of these countries we've invaded?

Actually, practically all the land you've built your state, was taken mostly by force from local people.

Oh, what? We've taken none?

Occupation and integration means responsibility. Raiding, murdering, pillaging and running back - is both irresponsible and immoral. Compare annexed Texas and raided Iraq.

Funny, that.

You always talk about territories, and you don't talk about people. That's the main problem.

 

[gipper]

And tell me, how much territory did we take from any of these countries we've invaded?

Oh, what? We've taken none?

Funny, that.

Lol. Another one. We mass murder, torture, destroy and Dumb Joe asks a dumb question.

You do know the US controls much of the world’s nations right? It doesn’t have to occupy them, though we still occupy Germany, Japan, and SK along with hundreds of foreign military bases scattered across the planet.