Let's Drop the Partisan Knee-Jerk Reactions and Look at the Ukraine Negotiations Realistically and Fairly

[Zavulon]

Holy cow. Ever heard of the Iron Curtain? The Warsaw Pact? Russia invaded and subjugated Eastern Europe during and after WW II, placing some 190 million people under Soviet tyranny. Those nations remained under Soviet domination and exploitation until the Berlin Wall fell in 1989.

Plain lie. It was Russia, who was invaded.

Name one nation we "invaded" and then dominated and refused to leave for decades.

Mexico.

Perhaps you should be deported to Russia and get a taste of what tyranny is.

Thousands of Americans live and work in Russia. They don't see here "tyranny".

 

[Zavulon]

So the Russians calling for us to be nuked are dumb?

No. Ukraine is as important for Russia's national security as California and Alaska are important for America's one. Americans ready to fight (with their nukes, if necessary) for Alaska and California are not dumb.

Americans suggesting nuclear war for Kievan regime - are dumb. Even American "flawless nuclear victory" (US strike Russia's nuclear forces, Russia accept quite generous US peace terms), with all its impossibility, will be worse for the USA than a conventional defeat in a proxy-conflict.

 

[Robert W]

No. Ukraine is as important for Russia's national security as California and Alaska are important for America's one. Americans ready to fight (with their nukes, if necessary) for Alaska and California are not dumb.

Americans suggesting nuclear war for Kievan regime - are dumb. Even American "flawless nuclear victory" (US strike Russia's nuclear forces, Russia accept quite generous US peace terms), with all its impossibility, will be worse for the USA than a conventional defeat in a proxy-conflict.

Zuvalon, I am pleased to read all of your claims. It tells me that at least one Russian is smart enough to speak great English. But We won't be talking much again. Have a great non nuclear life.

 

[Robert W]

Studies of what? CNN desinformation? BS on input, BS is in output.

You talk like an American Democrat. I told them many times they talk like Russians talk.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

You should move to Russia. Ukraine has actual, valid elections. Zelensky was elected fairly and squarely. Ukraine has a free press. People are free to come and go as they please. I've visited Ukraine. We had a Ukrainian exchange student for a school year a few years ago. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Again, you should take your pro-Russian propaganda to Russia, where it will find wide acceptance.

Thank you. Let's see if Putin accepts the cease fire.

 

[Zavulon]

It isn't a negotiation if Zelinsky isn't even at the table.

Is it negotiations if this Levinskiy guy is under the table?

 

[Dekster]

Is it negotiations if this Levinskiy guy is under the table?

That was Lewinsky with a W

 

[Robert W]

Thank you. Let's see if Putin accepts the cease fire.

One great thing about that war is this girl left Ukraine and now is in CA enjoying that state.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Zavulon]

One great thing about that war is this girl left Ukraine and now is in CA enjoying that state.

Wait a little. In few more years an ordinary American will hate Ukrainians more than he hates Arab terrorists.

 

[Robert W]

Wait a little. In few more years an ordinary American will hate Ukrainians more than he hates Arab terrorists.

I was friends with a Ukrainian who got his college degree who was forced into the Soviet Army where he was an officer. He fled to CA just because of the Russian menace. He died in past years. Was a Jew he told me.

 

[Zavulon]

I was friends with a Ukrainian who got his college degree who was forced into the Soviet Army where he was an officer. He fled to CA just because of the Russian menace. He died in past years. Was a Jew he told me.

It makes him a Soviet Jew, I think. My Jewish cousin from Kherson left Ukraine back in 2015, but he came to Israel, to work in Chinese (ex-USA) electronic company. And there is Israel he had found his true Russian identity. He found out that local Jews are not very different from other Middle-East "ragheads", so he prefers to stick with other "Russians."

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Ordinary Americans don't care much that way, Zavulon. Russians are a different matter.

 

[Robert W]

It makes him a Soviet Jew, I think. My Jewish cousin from Kherson left Ukraine back in 2015, but he came to Israel, to work in Chinese (ex-USA) electronic company. And there is Israel he had found his true Russian identity. He found out that local Jews are not very different from other Middle-East "ragheads", so he prefers to stick with other "Russians."

I had talked to Arkady a lot but not about religion. Several years after we first met, I visited a home for sale and the owner was a Russian. But born in China and had the story his family fled to China due to the Communists. I mentioned to him about Arkady being Russian and he almost yelled at me, the man you know is a Jew!!!!!
Well this set me back. So later on when I saw Arkady he told me yes, he was a Jew. I asked him why he came to America and he said because he was a Jew and wanted out of the Soviet area. He was the first person I met that came from there other than in college I had a professor who also escaped from the Soviet regime. He taught us political science. When I was at College, Stalin was the ruler of the Soviets.

Do Russians remember him as a dictator?

 

[Zavulon]

I had talked to Arkady a lot but not about religion. Several years after we first met, I visited a home for sale and the owner was a Russian. But born in China and had the story his family fled to China due to the Communists. I mentioned to him about Arkady being Russian and he almost yelled at me, the man you know is a Jew!!!!!
Well this set me back. So later on when I saw Arkady he told me yes, he was a Jew. I asked him why he came to America and he said because he was a Jew and wanted out of the Soviet area. He was the first person I met that came from there other than in college I had a professor who also escaped from the Soviet regime.

Migrants often like to tell fairy tales about their reasons of leaving their country. In fact, most of them just want better life. As for me - its OK, but they embarrassed for some reason.

He taught us political science. When I was at College, Stalin was the ruler of the Soviets.

Do Russians remember him as a dictator?

Of course Russians do remember him. He is one of the most popular Russian leaders, according people votes. He won WWII and saved Russian people from extermination.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Ukraine in NATO will stabilize Russia.

 

[Ringo]

 

[JimH52]

On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.

trump and pootin are playing a shell game. poootin in gonna talk peace while attacking Ukraine. trump does not want peace. He wants to weaken Ukrsine until they have to give whatever poootin wants. trump isca poootin b*tch.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Ringo]