CDZ Law abiding citizens should be able to carry a gun, open or concealed in any state...

[danielpalos]

As long as adamant firearms fetishists cling to ancient paradigms and rigid interpretation of a document that was intended to live, useful discussion on public weapon possession will remain blocked.

i make a motion for posse duty or militia duty, and registry, as the only gun registries needed.

 

[Pogo]

Nope......they wouldn't have stated the right of The People, to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.....they would have specified the militia.....

Exactly....If they wanted to say "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" they could have left it at that
But they chose to tie it to well regulated militias

Zackly --- and "a well regulated Militia" is hardly the only paradigm under which Arms can be used ---- although hunting shotguns weren't invented yet, nor was the revolver, nor was the Minié Ball; even simple dueling pistols were just then getting standardized ---- so their concept of "Arms" would have been a fraction of, and infinitely more limited than, ours is. It stretches credulity beyond belief to imagine that they would have meant to include all of the future technologies up to and including shoulder-fired antiaircraft missiles and land mines and nuclear bombs etc.

So it's reasonable to note that at the time the 2A was written the use of "Arms" was limited to (a) war, its original purpose, (b) a well regulated Militia or (c) dueling to settle a personal score. The idea of a sniper sitting on the top of the local grain mill picking off random strangers ---- simply did not exist, as the technology to do that didn't exist.

nope; the point is, Only well regulated militias of the whole and entire people, may not be Infringed when keeping and bearing Arms for their State or the Union.

That seems to be the implication ---- treating the term "the People" as synonymous with "members of the Militia".

The Militia is made of People, but no "the People" are not "the Militia". Unless literally everyone is in the Miliita. (If literally everyone were in the Militia, what would be its point?)

yes; the people and the militia are synonymous. only well regulated "militia" of the People is declared necessary to the security of a free State.

No they're not synonymous. If there's a Militia there are people in it --- but a random group of people is not automatically a "Militia".

 

[danielpalos]

Exactly....If they wanted to say "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" they could have left it at that
But they chose to tie it to well regulated militias

Zackly --- and "a well regulated Militia" is hardly the only paradigm under which Arms can be used ---- although hunting shotguns weren't invented yet, nor was the revolver, nor was the Minié Ball; even simple dueling pistols were just then getting standardized ---- so their concept of "Arms" would have been a fraction of, and infinitely more limited than, ours is. It stretches credulity beyond belief to imagine that they would have meant to include all of the future technologies up to and including shoulder-fired antiaircraft missiles and land mines and nuclear bombs etc.

So it's reasonable to note that at the time the 2A was written the use of "Arms" was limited to (a) war, its original purpose, (b) a well regulated Militia or (c) dueling to settle a personal score. The idea of a sniper sitting on the top of the local grain mill picking off random strangers ---- simply did not exist, as the technology to do that didn't exist.

nope; the point is, Only well regulated militias of the whole and entire people, may not be Infringed when keeping and bearing Arms for their State or the Union.

That seems to be the implication ---- treating the term "the People" as synonymous with "members of the Militia".

The Militia is made of People, but no "the People" are not "the Militia". Unless literally everyone is in the Miliita. (If literally everyone were in the Militia, what would be its point?)

yes; the people and the militia are synonymous. only well regulated "militia" of the People is declared necessary to the security of a free State.

No they're not synonymous. If there's a Militia there are people in it --- but a random group of people is not automatically a "Militia".

yes; the People and the Militia are synonymous. well regulated militia are necessary, the unorganized militia is not.

 

[2aguy]

As long as adamant firearms fetishists cling to ancient paradigms and rigid interpretation of a document that was intended to live, useful discussion on public weapon possession will remain blocked.

as will useful discussion on freedom of the press and of religion.....right?

 

[JimBowie1958]

This should be obvious to anyone who understands the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and how we catch criminals.......if you are a law abiding citizen, you should be able to carry a gun either concealed or open......in any state in the union without fear of arrest or prosecution...why don't you anti gunners get that?

If we were still a largely rural country, I would be okay with that. We're not, we're overwhelmingly urban and most have not grown up around them, and I have no problem requiring safety and use training before being allowed to purchase one. Other than that, I don't see any reason to have to have a special permit just to carry one concealed. It's redundant.

The people who wrote the Constitution saw gun ownership AND CARRY OF THEM as a natural right.

Why dont we today? Because we let Marxists take over our media, colleges and political system?

 

[PoliticalChic]

[

I have worked in hosptals almost all of my adult life-------I have seen mothers lying on the emergency room floor screaming (some kid found dad's gun)

Is it less tragic when they find the can of Raid? Or fall into the pool?

Do mothers really say, "johnny's dead, but at least he didn't die from a gunshot?"

"Any parent knows that a single child’s death is unspeakably tragic. Yet the number of toddlers who die from gun accidents is smaller than the number who die from drowning in buckets. And it’s much lower than the 500 who die in swimming pools."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

 

[irosie91]

[

I have worked in hosptals almost all of my adult life-------I have seen mothers lying on the emergency room floor screaming (some kid found dad's gun)

Is it less tragic when they find the can of Raid? Or fall into the pool?

Do mothers really say, "johnny's dead, but at least he didn't die from a gunshot?"

"Any parent knows that a single child’s death is unspeakably tragic. Yet the number of toddlers who die from gun accidents is smaller than the number who die from drowning in buckets. And it’s much lower than the 500 who die in swimming pools."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

yes I know-----so? I am not sure how many die of gun NON ACCIDENTS----

 

[2aguy]

[

I have worked in hosptals almost all of my adult life-------I have seen mothers lying on the emergency room floor screaming (some kid found dad's gun)

Is it less tragic when they find the can of Raid? Or fall into the pool?

Do mothers really say, "johnny's dead, but at least he didn't die from a gunshot?"

"Any parent knows that a single child’s death is unspeakably tragic. Yet the number of toddlers who die from gun accidents is smaller than the number who die from drowning in buckets. And it’s much lower than the 500 who die in swimming pools."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

In 2014 Accidental deaths of kids was at 48....down 21 from the year before......that is actual accidents...from the CDC...

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

Total accidental gun death for kids 2013....69
Total accidental gun death for kids in 2014...48

 

[2aguy]

[

I have worked in hosptals almost all of my adult life-------I have seen mothers lying on the emergency room floor screaming (some kid found dad's gun)

Is it less tragic when they find the can of Raid? Or fall into the pool?

Do mothers really say, "johnny's dead, but at least he didn't die from a gunshot?"

"Any parent knows that a single child’s death is unspeakably tragic. Yet the number of toddlers who die from gun accidents is smaller than the number who die from drowning in buckets. And it’s much lower than the 500 who die in swimming pools."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

yes I know-----so? I am not sure how many die of gun NON ACCIDENTS----

Here is some perspective....

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

Cars, Accidental deaths 2013......35,369

Poisons...accidental deaths 2013....38,851

Alcohol...accidental deaths 2013...29,001

gravity....accidental falling deaths 2013...30,208
Accidental drowning.....3,391
Accidental exposure to smoke, fire and flames.....2,760

Accidental gun deaths 2013......505

 

[2aguy]

[

I have worked in hosptals almost all of my adult life-------I have seen mothers lying on the emergency room floor screaming (some kid found dad's gun)

Is it less tragic when they find the can of Raid? Or fall into the pool?

Do mothers really say, "johnny's dead, but at least he didn't die from a gunshot?"

"Any parent knows that a single child’s death is unspeakably tragic. Yet the number of toddlers who die from gun accidents is smaller than the number who die from drowning in buckets. And it’s much lower than the 500 who die in swimming pools."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

yes I know-----so? I am not sure how many die of gun NON ACCIDENTS----

accidental deaths of kids....in perspective...

http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

Accidental death by cause for 2014.....ages <1-14. ( 320 million guns in private hands in 2013) (74.2 million children 2010 census)


Accidental gun...48 ( 2013...69) ( 2012...58) ( 2011...74)
Accidental drowning...647
Accidental car deaths...1,083
Accidental falls...53

 

[2aguy]

[

I have worked in hosptals almost all of my adult life-------I have seen mothers lying on the emergency room floor screaming (some kid found dad's gun)

Is it less tragic when they find the can of Raid? Or fall into the pool?

Do mothers really say, "johnny's dead, but at least he didn't die from a gunshot?"

"Any parent knows that a single child’s death is unspeakably tragic. Yet the number of toddlers who die from gun accidents is smaller than the number who die from drowning in buckets. And it’s much lower than the 500 who die in swimming pools."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

yes I know-----so? I am not sure how many die of gun NON ACCIDENTS----

Here you go....murder of children with guns....

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

Kids murdered by guns....

under 1: 12
age 1-4: 39

age 5-14: 142

total gun murder of children.....193



Kids murdered by other means...

under 1: 270
age 1-4: 298
age 5-14: 135



murder of children by other means.....703

 

[irosie91]

so?

 

[PoliticalChic]

[

I have worked in hosptals almost all of my adult life-------I have seen mothers lying on the emergency room floor screaming (some kid found dad's gun)

Is it less tragic when they find the can of Raid? Or fall into the pool?

Do mothers really say, "johnny's dead, but at least he didn't die from a gunshot?"

"Any parent knows that a single child’s death is unspeakably tragic. Yet the number of toddlers who die from gun accidents is smaller than the number who die from drowning in buckets. And it’s much lower than the 500 who die in swimming pools."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

yes I know-----so? I am not sure how many die of gun NON ACCIDENTS----

Knowledge is power.

1. "Guns are used quite commonly in self-defense; estimates of defensive gun uses per year range from 110,000 (National Crime Victimization Survey) to 1.5 million to 2.5 million or more (studies by criminologists Gary Kleck and Philip Cook). A very large majority of defensive uses simply involve display of the firearm (without a shot being fired), followed by the criminal’s hasty retreat.

Nobody knows what the exact count is or how many of those uses save the lives of kids or other innocents.

But we do know what happens in countries like Canada where the laws require that firearms be locked up: the burglary rate is significantly higher than in the United States. U.S. burglars almost always avoid occupied homes, for fear of being shot. But Canadian burglars are three times more likely than American burglars to break into a home when people are there. From the Canadian burglar’s viewpoint, a “hot burglary” (victims present) is often superior, since the alarm system will be turned off and there will be wallets and purses to grab."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

 

[irosie91]

got a figure for number of kids who catch stray bullets in the streets?

 

[2aguy]

[

I have worked in hosptals almost all of my adult life-------I have seen mothers lying on the emergency room floor screaming (some kid found dad's gun)

Is it less tragic when they find the can of Raid? Or fall into the pool?

Do mothers really say, "johnny's dead, but at least he didn't die from a gunshot?"

"Any parent knows that a single child’s death is unspeakably tragic. Yet the number of toddlers who die from gun accidents is smaller than the number who die from drowning in buckets. And it’s much lower than the 500 who die in swimming pools."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

yes I know-----so? I am not sure how many die of gun NON ACCIDENTS----

Knowledge is power.

1. "Guns are used quite commonly in self-defense; estimates of defensive gun uses per year range from 110,000 (National Crime Victimization Survey) to 1.5 million to 2.5 million or more (studies by criminologists Gary Kleck and Philip Cook). A very large majority of defensive uses simply involve display of the firearm (without a shot being fired), followed by the criminal’s hasty retreat.

Nobody knows what the exact count is or how many of those uses save the lives of kids or other innocents.

But we do know what happens in countries like Canada where the laws require that firearms be locked up: the burglary rate is significantly higher than in the United States. U.S. burglars almost always avoid occupied homes, for fear of being shot. But Canadian burglars are three times more likely than American burglars to break into a home when people are there. From the Canadian burglar’s viewpoint, a “hot burglary” (victims present) is often superior, since the alarm system will be turned off and there will be wallets and purses to grab."
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/loaded-guns-can-be-good-kids

And keep in mind...the National Crime Victimization Survey is not an actual gun self defense study.......which is why it's number is so low....they never directly ask the survey taker if they used a gun for self defense, and the word "Gun" isn't even in the study.......that is why anti-gunners cling to it......

And bill clinton's Department of Justice also did a study and found Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year for self defense.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Exactly....If they wanted to say "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" they could have left it at that
But they chose to tie it to well regulated militias

Zackly --- and "a well regulated Militia" is hardly the only paradigm under which Arms can be used ---- although hunting shotguns weren't invented yet, nor was the revolver, nor was the Minié Ball; even simple dueling pistols were just then getting standardized ---- so their concept of "Arms" would have been a fraction of, and infinitely more limited than, ours is. It stretches credulity beyond belief to imagine that they would have meant to include all of the future technologies up to and including shoulder-fired antiaircraft missiles and land mines and nuclear bombs etc.

So it's reasonable to note that at the time the 2A was written the use of "Arms" was limited to (a) war, its original purpose, (b) a well regulated Militia or (c) dueling to settle a personal score. The idea of a sniper sitting on the top of the local grain mill picking off random strangers ---- simply did not exist, as the technology to do that didn't exist.

nope; the point is, Only well regulated militias of the whole and entire people, may not be Infringed when keeping and bearing Arms for their State or the Union.

That seems to be the implication ---- treating the term "the People" as synonymous with "members of the Militia".

The Militia is made of People, but no "the People" are not "the Militia". Unless literally everyone is in the Miliita. (If literally everyone were in the Militia, what would be its point?)

yes; the people and the militia are synonymous. only well regulated "militia" of the People is declared necessary to the security of a free State.

No they're not synonymous. If there's a Militia there are people in it --- but a random group of people is not automatically a "Militia".

This is the militia:

Federal law defines “the militia of the United States” to include all able-bodied males from 17 to 45 and members of the National Guard up to age 64, but excluding those who have no intention of becoming citizens, and active military personnel. (US Code Title 10, sect. 311-313)

[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311]


Are you in the militia...or well past that age?

 

[2aguy]

got a figure for number of kids who catch stray bullets in the streets?

That would be gun murder.....and it is listed above....or accidental death, also listed above....

 

[irosie91]

got a figure for number of kids who catch stray bullets in the streets?

That would be gun murder.....and it is listed above....or accidental death, also listed above....

in that case I do not believe the published figures. --------they do not jibe with the magnitude of -------bullet in kids in the streets of my inner city ------are the stats just for
some city in Texas or nationwide?

 

[PoliticalChic]

got a figure for number of kids who catch stray bullets in the streets?

"CNN Article Admits Gun Accidents Among Children Are Literally 1 in a Million
APRIL 12 2013
Despite incidents such as the recent death of a 6-year-old New Jersey boy shot in the head by a 4-year-old playmate, as well as the accidental shooting of a Tennessee sheriff’s deputy’s wife by a 4-year-old boy, accidental firearms deaths are rare among children.

According to the CDC’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, 703 children under the age of 15 died in accidental firearms deaths between 2001 and 2010, the latest year for which the agency’s statistics on fatalities are available. During the same period, 7,766 children under the age of 14 suffered accidental firearms injuries — about one injury for every million children."
CNN Article Admits Gun Accidents Among Children Are Literally 1 in a Million


Do you own a gun?
Do you plan to?
If not, why are you asking?

 

[Uncensored2008]

[

No they're not synonymous. If there's a Militia there are people in it --- but a random group of people is not automatically a "Militia".

False, as you full well know and have been repeatedly shown.

• "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
  — Tench Coxe, in `Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution� under the Pseudonym `A Pennsylvanian� in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1).

• "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to Congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both."
  — William Rawle, A View of the Constitution 125-6 (2nd ed. 1829)

• "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
  — George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788

• "Whereas civil-rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
  -- Tench Coxe, in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution

• "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
  -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

• If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.
  -- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28