Lake Erie Today

[westwall]

Provide a reference showing that absorbed energy in a fluid cannot propagate beyond the absorption layer under normal thermodynamic conditions.

I've been sourcing everything you've asked for. Now I'm calling your bluff. You're flat wrong about this. Let's see a source.

The problem you are having, dear child, is you never get to your normal thermodynamic conditions.

Thanks to the reflection of the IR off the water, you GET NO INTERPLAY.

 

[BackAgain]

Lake Erie this time of year is cold.
And water is wet.
The End.

When Lake Erie freezes over, strong winds feel like you’re being stabbed with icicles.

But the good news is that cold winds blowing over ice doesn’t yield much precipitation.

 

[Anomalism]

The problem you are having, dear child, is you never get to your normal thermodynamic conditions.

Thanks to the reflection of the IR off the water, you GET NO INTERPLAY.

What you’re asserting (“reflection means no interplay”) is simply false. Longwave IR is not perfectly reflected by water; it is largely absorbed in the top few microns, and that absorption is the interplay. Once energy is absorbed, it becomes thermal motion of water molecules, and from that point it is governed by ordinary heat transfer laws: conduction (molecular collisions), convection (buoyancy and mixing), and turbulence (wind shear, surface waves).

Reflection only applies to the fraction of photons that are not absorbed; it does not negate the energy that is absorbed. There is no special exemption where absorbed energy “fails to enter thermodynamics” because it started in a thin layer.

In real fluids, a temperature gradient of even microns must propagate energy downward. This is literally how all surface heating works, whether from sunlight, a hot pan, or IR. Treating the ocean surface as a mirror or armor plate is not physics; it’s a category error that ignores the first law of thermodynamics and the basic definition of temperature as molecular kinetic energy.

 

[Mushroom]

I love the politics of science.

I absolutely and positively 100% hate when politics is mixed with anything. Especially when it's mixed in with science.

I think the only time I approve of politics getting involved with anything is when it's dancing.

 

[BackAgain]

I’m not a scientist. So, I went to AI. I asked:

According to physics and fluid dynamics, does IR (from sunlight) penetrate sufficiently into (or past) the “skin” of a deep body of water (like an ocean), is there enough heat generated to cause any convection of heat in the body of water.

I found the AI answer informative:

Short answer: Yes, some infrared (IR) from sunlight does penetrate into water and can cause limited heating and convection, but most solar IR is absorbed very near the surface. As a result, IR alone produces only shallow, surface-driven convection, not deep ocean mixing.

My question is first for anomaliem but then a reply from Westwall:

Is the ChatGPT fair and accurate?

Also, is there some formula describing all of this?

 

[Mushroom]

Is the ChatGPT fair and accurate?

AI should never be believed to be honest. It is simply another search engine, and will respond back with what it has been trained to respond with.

If the response is something a person agrees with or not is 100% irrelevant, it is no more "accurate" than asking it what the best painting is or what the best book is.

It should absolutely never be relied upon to replace actual research.

 

[Anomalism]

I’m not a scientist. So, I went to AI. I asked:



I found the AI answer informative:


My question is first for anomaliem but then a reply from Westwall:

Is the ChatGPT fair and accurate?

Also, is there some formula describing all of this?

ChatGPT is confirming what I said.

 

[westwall]

What you’re asserting (“reflection means no interplay”) is simply false. Longwave IR is not perfectly reflected by water; it is largely absorbed in the top few microns, and that absorption is the interplay. Once energy is absorbed, it becomes thermal motion of water molecules, and from that point it is governed by ordinary heat transfer laws: conduction (molecular collisions), convection (buoyancy and mixing), and turbulence (wind shear, surface waves).

Reflection only applies to the fraction of photons that are not absorbed; it does not negate the energy that is absorbed. There is no special exemption where absorbed energy “fails to enter thermodynamics” because it started in a thin layer.

In real fluids, a temperature gradient of even microns must propagate energy downward. This is literally how all surface heating works, whether from sunlight, a hot pan, or IR. Treating the ocean surface as a mirror or armor plate is not physics; it’s a category error that ignores the first law of thermodynamics and the basic definition of temperature as molecular kinetic energy.

Yeah, it is. Whatever interaction occurs at the atomic level results in a puff of water vapor that then RISES, because that's what heat does.

It doesn't magically penetrate through the water to power your mythical convection.

 

[BackAgain]

AI should never be believed to be honest. It is simply another search engine, and will respond back with what it has been trained to respond with.

If the response is something a person agrees with or not is 100% irrelevant, it is no more "accurate" than asking it what the best painting is or what the best book is.

It should absolutely never be relied upon to replace actual research.

Not always true. But I do take all AI answers with at least a grain of salt.

That said, anomalism and Westwall can still provide their own comments.

 

[BackAgain]

ChatGPT is confirming what I said.

Doesn’t look that way.

 

[Anomalism]

AI should never be believed to be honest. It is simply another search engine, and will respond back with what it has been trained to respond with.

If the response is something a person agrees with or not is 100% irrelevant, it is no more "accurate" than asking it what the best painting is or what the best book is.

It should absolutely never be relied upon to replace actual research.

So OpenAI is in on it too? Lol

 

[Anomalism]

Doesn’t look that way.

What ChatGPT confirmed is consistent with my point. Infrared radiation from the sun or from CO2 absorption does not need to penetrate deeply to matter. Even though IR is mostly absorbed in the top few microns or millimeters of water, that energy immediately creates temperature gradients. Those gradients drive conduction, convection, and turbulence, which propagate heat downward through molecular motion and fluid mixing.

In other words, energy starts at the surface, but fluid dynamics ensures it doesn’t stay there. It moves, diffuses, and mixes. The confusion comes from conflating penetration depth with effectiveness. Just because IR doesn’t go meters deep instantly doesn’t mean it has zero impact on the bulk water.

The top layer acts as the engine that sets the fluid in motion, and that motion carries heat into the deeper layers. This is textbook thermodynamics and fluid mechanics. Surface absorption is sufficient to drive large scale energy redistribution in oceans, which is exactly why Argo floats measure warming at depth even though the IR itself only penetrates the skin.

Quote me to the Chatbot and see if it disagrees with me.

 

[Anomalism]

Yeah, it is. Whatever interaction occurs at the atomic level results in a puff of water vapor that then RISES, because that's what heat does.

It doesn't magically penetrate through the water to power your mythical convection.

That puff of vapor idea isn’t how heat transfer works in liquids. Infrared absorption excites molecular motion in the top microns, but that energy doesn’t vanish into the sky; it spreads through the water via conduction and drives convection as warmer water becomes buoyant and mixes with cooler layers. Evaporation is a separate process at the surface and only accounts for a small fraction of energy flux.

The bulk of the absorbed IR energy stays in the liquid and is redistributed by molecular collisions, turbulence, and convective motion, which is exactly what Argo floats measure in the upper hundreds of meters. You can’t just wave it away by pointing at evaporation.

 

[BackAgain]

What ChatGPT confirmed is consistent with my point. Infrared radiation from the sun or from CO2 absorption does not need to penetrate deeply to matter. Even though IR is mostly absorbed in the top few microns or millimeters of water, that energy immediately creates temperature gradients. Those gradients drive conduction, convection, and turbulence, which propagate heat downward through molecular motion and fluid mixing.

In other words, energy starts at the surface, but fluid dynamics ensures it doesn’t stay there. It moves, diffuses, and mixes. The confusion comes from conflating penetration depth with effectiveness. Just because IR doesn’t go meters deep instantly doesn’t mean it has zero impact on the bulk water.

The top layer acts as the engine that sets the fluid in motion, and that motion carries heat into the deeper layers. This is textbook thermodynamics and fluid mechanics. Surface absorption is sufficient to drive large scale energy redistribution in oceans, which is exactly why Argo floats measure warming at depth even though the IR itself only penetrates the skin.

Quote me to the Chatbot and see if it disagrees with me.

It looks like the Ai actually wrecks your position. It seems clear that this IR only produces shallow surface driven convection.

What you’ve described seems to require a significantly deeper penetration.

 

[Lockback]

When Lake Erie freezes over, strong winds feel like you’re being stabbed with icicles.

But the good news is that cold winds blowing over ice doesn’t yield much precipitation.

I've been there and it's nasty.

 

[BackAgain]

I've been there and it's nasty.

Me too brother. But even so, I love Buffalo.

 

[Anomalism]

It looks like the Ai actually wrecks your position. It seems clear that this IR only produces shallow surface driven convection.

What you’ve described seems to require a significantly deeper penetration.

You’re mixing up absorption depth with energy influence, and that’s the entire error.

The bot did not wreck anything. It said IR is absorbed in the top microns-millimeters and produces surface driven convection. That is exactly what I said, and it's exactly what the dude I was arguing with said I was wrong about. He said it just bounces off, and the bot just explained why that is false.

Once the photon is absorbed, it stops being optics and becomes thermal kinetic energy of water molecules. From that point on, the relevant physics is thermodynamics and fluid dynamics, not penetration depth. Energy does not need to penetrate deeply as radiation to affect deeper layers. A temperature gradient at the surface is sufficient to drive conduction, convection, and turbulence, which transport heat downward through molecular collisions and fluid mixing.

That’s literally how all surface heating works in fluids.

“Shallow surface convection” does not mean “no bulk effect.” It just means IR is not directly overturning the deep ocean by itself. It is the energy source that enters the fluid system at the boundary layer, and the fluid dynamics does the redistribution. Confusing penetration depth with effectiveness is a basic category error.

Send my argument to the bot and tell me what it says. It's agreeing with me.

 

[Lockback]

Me too brother. But even so, I love Buffalo.

Buffalo is cool. I'm a Bills fan.
Sigh.
Maybe one of these days ...

 

[BackAgain]

You’re mixing up absorption depth with energy influence, and that’s the entire error.

The bot did not wreck anything. It said IR is absorbed in the top microns-millimeters and produces surface driven convection. That is exactly what I said, and it's exactly what the dude I was arguing with said I was wrong about. He said it just bounces off, and the bot just explained why that is false.

Once the photon is absorbed, it stops being optics and becomes thermal kinetic energy of water molecules. From that point on, the relevant physics is thermodynamics and fluid dynamics, not penetration depth. Energy does not need to “
penetrate deeply as radiation to affect deeper layers. A temperature gradient at the surface is sufficient to drive conduction, convection, and turbulence, which transport heat downward through molecular collisions and fluid mixing.

That’s literally how all surface heating works in fluids.

“Shallow surface convection” does not mean “no bulk effect.” It just means IR is not directly overturning the deep ocean by itself. It is the energy source that enters the fluid system at the boundary layer, and the fluid dynamics does the redistribution. Confusing penetration depth with effectiveness is a basic category error.

Send my argument to the bot and tell me what it says. It's agreeing with me.

Maybe. But I doubt that shallow surface convection has much of anything to do with global human caused warmering.

 

[Anomalism]

Maybe. But I doubt that shallow surface convection has much of anything to do with global human caused warmering.

It’s actually central to ocean warming and climate science, not marginal. The oceans warm almost entirely from surface energy fluxes and heat exchange with the atmosphere, and then that energy is transported downward by turbulent mixing, wind driven circulation, convection, and large scale currents.

That’s why climate models, Argo floats, and ocean heat content studies all focus on surface forcing plus vertical mixing, not on radiation penetrating kilometers deep. Greenhouse gases increase the amount of IR energy entering the ocean-atmosphere boundary layer, which raises surface temperature and changes the entire heat budget of the ocean, and over time that extra energy is mechanically mixed into deeper layers.

This is literally the foundation of how modern climate science explains long term ocean heat uptake and global warming.