Lake Erie Today

[odanny]

You’re still fundamentally misunderstanding basic physics. Heat doesn’t vanish just because it’s at the surface, and it’s not optional. In fluids like the ocean, surface heating drives conduction, convection, and turbulence, which mix energy downward. Even a millimeter of warmed water creates gradients that carry energy deeper. IR absorption by CO2 only deposits energy at the very surface, but that energy is immediately redistributed throughout the water column via real, measurable fluid dynamics. This isn’t speculation or model hand waving. Argo floats, temperature profiles, and direct ocean heat content measurements confirm it. Saying “heat always rises so no heat enters water” is just incompatible with thermodynamics and well-established laboratory and field physics.

In other words, you're misunderstanding science that isn't even controversial or limited to climate science.

You’re wasting your time but I respect the effort.

 

[Anomalism]

You’re wasting your time

That's what we're all doing here. Lol

 

[westwall]

You’re still misunderstanding fluid physics. Even a millimeter of warmed surface is enough to drive convection, conduction, and turbulence downward. Infrared from CO2 deposits energy in that surface layer, which immediately creates temperature gradients. This is how fluids transport energy. Heat doesn’t need to pierce meters to matter; it moves via molecular motion and mixing, exactly as measured in oceans.

Your failure in understanding fluid dynamics isn't complex. You literally don't even understand the basics, highschool stuff.

Heat Transfer — Introduction to Chemical and Biological Engineering

www.engr.colostate.edu

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/education/pdfs/basics_thermodynamicsguidestudent.pdf

https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshe...eat_Transfer/13.4%3A_Methods_of_Heat_Transfer

You don't get that millimeter dude. Even if your claim of a millimeter were true, which it isn't, you still don't even get that. You get a maximum of 10 microns. Then, boing....the energy you are depending on bounces off the skin and travels on its merry way, never to be seen in your fanciful millimeter again.

 

[Anomalism]

You don't get that millimeter dude. Even if your claim of a millimeter were true, which it isn't, you still don't even get that. You get a maximum of 10 microns. Then, boing....the energy you are depending on bounces off the skin and travels on its merry way, never to be seen in your fanciful millimeter again.

Even the top few microns absorb energy, which immediately sets up temperature gradients. Those gradients drive conduction, convection, and turbulence, moving heat downward. This isn’t speculation. Oceanographers measure it directly with Argo floats and other instruments. The idea that IR can’t affect the water because it only penetrates microns ignores basic fluid dynamics and thermodynamics. Energy moves through fluids via molecular motion and mixing; it doesn’t have to pierce meters to matter.

I'm finding it very hard to believe you're a scientist.

What is your area of expertise?

 

[westwall]

Even the top few microns absorb energy, which immediately sets up temperature gradients. Those gradients drive conduction, convection, and turbulence, moving heat downward. This isn’t speculation. Oceanographers measure it directly with Argo floats and other instruments. The idea that IR can’t affect the water because it only penetrates microns ignores basic fluid dynamics and thermodynamics. Energy moves through fluids via molecular motion and mixing; it doesn’t have to pierce meters to matter.

I'm finding it very hard to believe you're a scientist.

What is your area of expertise?

No, the don't. The skin of the water is like rolled homogenous steel plate armor, and the long wave IR is akin to a lead projectile hitting that armor plate. Yes, there is a mighty impact, and yes kinetic energy is transformed to heat, but the results are the same, the lead projectile disintigrates, and deflects away, while the armor plate looks exactly as it did prior to impact.

Simple but accurate analogy. And the process can be repeated infinitely, the result will always be the same. A steel plate, standing still, and the skin of water wondering what that flash overhead was.

 

[Anomalism]

No, the don't. The skin of the water is like rolled homogenous steel plate armor, and the long wave IR is akin to a lead projectile hitting that armor plate. Yes, there is a mighty impact, and yes kinetic energy is transformed to heat, but the results are the same, the lead projectile disintigrates, and deflects away, while the armor plate looks exactly as it did prior to impact.

Simple but accurate analogy. And the process can be repeated infinitely, the result will always be the same. A steel plate, standing still, and the skin of water wondering what that flash overhead was.

Your steel plate analogy doesn't work because water isn’t a rigid, immobile barrier. It’s a fluid. Even a few microns at the surface absorb IR, creating a temperature gradient. That gradient automatically drives conduction, convection, and turbulence, moving energy downward. It doesn’t bounce off and vanish like a projectile hitting solid steel. This is measurable physics, confirmed by Argo floats, temperature profiles, and lab experiments on fluid energy transfer.

Fluids mix and redistribute heat, so surface absorption immediately influences the bulk water. Your analogy ignores the fundamental difference between a rigid solid and a fluid governed by molecular motion.

 

[westwall]

Your steel plate analogy doesn't work because water isn’t a rigid, immobile barrier. It’s a fluid. Even a few microns at the surface absorb IR, creating a temperature gradient. That gradient automatically drives conduction, convection, and turbulence, moving energy downward. It doesn’t bounce off and vanish like a projectile hitting solid steel. This is measurable physics, confirmed by Argo floats, temperature profiles, and lab experiments on fluid energy transfer.

Fluids mix and redistribute heat, so surface absorption immediately influences the bulk water. Your analogy ignores the fundamental difference between a rigid solid and a fluid governed by molecular motion.

At the atomic level the skin of water acts EXACTLY like that steel plate. That's the point. You are ignoring the molecular level of physics that is preventing your fluid dynamics from even having a start point.

 

[Anomalism]

At the atomic level the skin of water acts EXACTLY like that steel plate. That's the point. You are ignoring the molecular level of physics that is preventing your fluid dynamics from even having a start point.

Your “steel plate at the atomic level” analogy is misleading. Yes, longwave IR is absorbed in the top 10–20 microns of the ocean, that’s real, measured physics, but water isn’t a rigid barrier. Absorption in the skin layer immediately creates a temperature gradient between the surface and the water below. That gradient drives conduction, convection, and turbulence, which rapidly redistribute energy downward. You don’t need photons to penetrate meters; in fluids, energy flows wherever there’s a gradient. Treating the skin as immobile steel ignores how heat transfer in fluids actually works: molecular motion and turbulence propagate absorbed energy, so IR at the surface absolutely contributes to warming the bulk ocean, despite being absorbed in a thin layer.

 

[westwall]

Your “steel plate at the atomic level” analogy is misleading. Yes, longwave IR is absorbed in the top 10–20 microns of the ocean, that’s real, measured physics, but water isn’t a rigid barrier. Absorption in the skin layer immediately creates a temperature gradient between the surface and the water below. That gradient drives conduction, convection, and turbulence, which rapidly redistribute energy downward. You don’t need photons to penetrate meters; in fluids, energy flows wherever there’s a gradient. Treating the skin as immobile steel ignores how heat transfer in fluids actually works: molecular motion and turbulence propagate absorbed energy, so IR at the surface absolutely contributes to warming the bulk ocean, despite being absorbed in a thin layer.

No it isn't. This statement alone exposes your anti science biases.

 

[Robert W]

Much of the Eastern United States has seen the coldest winter in the past 5-20 years.

Proving the climate is not hotter. Were it hotter, this could never have happened.

 

[Anomalism]

No it isn't. This statement alone exposes your anti science biases.

Yes, it is, and I explained why, in detail. You don't understand this as well as you think/pretend you do.

 

[Robert W]

Care to provide an argument for why you don't believe the positions of scientists the world over?

That is supposed to validate such claims. But when Dr. Richard Lindzen denounced it, I am persuaded by him. He was published on this topic a record 250 times. He so outweighs your so-called scientists by a lot.

 

[westwall]

Yes, it is, and I explained why, in detail. You don't understand this as well as you think/pretend you do.

When you ignore the physics at the atomic level every claim you make beyond disappears like the smoke that they are made from.

Smoke and mirrors. That's all you have.

 

[Anomalism]

When you ignore the physics at the atomic level every claim you make beyond disappears like the smoke that they are made from.

Smoke and mirrors. That's all you have.

I didn't ignore the physics. You literally don't understand what you're talking about, and I explained why.

This isn't even controversial. This is fluid dynamics 101.

 

[westwall]

I didn't ignore the physics. You literally don't understand what you're talking about, and I explained why.

This isn't even controversial. This is fluid dynamics 101.

Fluid dynamics is MACRO level, it doesn't apply when it is cut off at the MICRO level.

Learn some physics. You are doing nothing but repeating what your masters tell you, but you don't understand one iota of it.

 

[Anomalism]

Fluid dynamics is MACRO level, it doesn't apply when it is cut off at the MICRO level.

Learn some physics. You are doing nothing but repeating what your masters tell you, but you don't understand one iota of it.

You’re conflating scales. Fluid dynamics does emerge from molecular level physics; micro scale interactions are what create the macroscopic behaviors you we call fluid dynamics. Absorbing IR in the top 10-20 microns sets up a temperature gradient, and that gradient drives molecular motion, which propagates energy downward. The energy doesn’t vanish just because it starts small; the micro level physics is what produces conduction, convection, and turbulence. This isn’t a matter of opinion or consensus. It’s textbook thermodynamics and fluid mechanics. Treating the water surface as a rigid, immobile plate ignores the continuous, dynamic motion that molecular collisions and turbulence create.

Provide a reference showing that absorbed energy in a fluid cannot propagate beyond the absorption layer under normal thermodynamic conditions. There isn’t one, because it doesn’t exist.

 

[westwall]

You’re conflating scales. Fluid dynamics does emerge from molecular level physics; micro scale interactions are what create the macroscopic behaviors you we call fluid dynamics. Absorbing IR in the top 10–20 microns sets up a temperature gradient, and that gradient drives molecular motion, which propagates energy downward. The energy doesn’t vanish just because it starts small; the micro level physics is what produces conduction, convection, and turbulence. This isn’t a matter of opinion or consensus. It’s textbook thermodynamics and fluid mechanics. Treating the water surface as a rigid, immobile plate ignores the continuous, dynamic motion that molecular collisions and turbulence create.

Provide a reference showing that absorbed energy in a fluid cannot propagate beyond the absorption layer under normal thermodynamic conditions. There isn’t one, because it doesn’t exist.

No, child....it's you who are conflating things.

Like I said you literally have no idea what you are saying.

 

[Anomalism]

No, child....it's you who are conflating things.

Like I said you literally have no idea what you are saying.

You going to provide that reference I asked for? The one that doesn't exist, because you're wrong.

 

[westwall]

You going to provide that reference I asked for? The one that doesn't exist, because you're wrong.

What reference? You are still lost in macro physics land.

 

[Anomalism]

What reference? You are still lost in macro physics land.

Provide a reference showing that absorbed energy in a fluid cannot propagate beyond the absorption layer under normal thermodynamic conditions.

I've been sourcing everything you've asked for. Now I'm calling your bluff. You're flat wrong about this. Let's see a source.