Lake Erie Today

[BackAgain]

It’s actually central to ocean warming and climate science, not marginal. The oceans warm almost entirely from surface energy fluxes and heat exchange with the atmosphere, and then that energy is transported downward by turbulent mixing, wind driven circulation, convection, and large scale currents.

That’s why climate models, Argo floats, and ocean heat content studies all focus on surface forcing plus vertical mixing, not on radiation penetrating kilometers deep. Greenhouse gases increase the amount of IR energy entering the ocean-atmosphere boundary layer, which raises surface temperature and changes the entire heat budget of the ocean, and over time that extra energy is mechanically mixed into deeper layers.

This is literally the foundation of how modern climate science explains long term ocean heat uptake and global warming.

Seems counter intuitive. It makes no sense. A bit of shallow surface convection isn’t gonna do much of anything akin to warming the oceans to a deeper depth.

Anyway, show me the math.

 

[Anomalism]

Seems counter intuitive. It makes no sense. A bit of shallow surface convection isn’t gonna do much of anything akin to warming the oceans to a deeper depth.

Anyway, show me the math.

For context, nobody that understands climate science claims “shallow IR convection alone warms the deep ocean” That was the other guy’s strawman, and we’ve already moved past it.

The actual physics is: the ocean gains heat almost exclusively through surface energy fluxes, then that heat is redistributed downward by fluid dynamics. The math is just the heat equation used in every climate and ocean model: ∂T/∂t = K∇²T + Q/(ρcₚ).

Radiative input Q is applied at the surface boundary, not at depth. K (thermal + turbulent diffusivity) represents mixing by wind, convection, shear, and circulation.

Ocean heat uptake is ~10 W/m2 globally averaged. Ocean heat capacity is enormous: ρcₚ = 4×10⁶ J/m³·K. So even a tiny sustained flux gives long term warming: 10 W/m2 over 50 years deposits ~1.6×10¹⁰ J/m2, enough to warm the upper 700 m by ~0.6C.

That’s exactly what Argo floats measure. The system is surface forced, mechanically mixed, and integrates energy over time. That’s literally standard fluid dynamics + thermodynamics, and it’s the foundation of modern ocean heat content science.

 

[BackAgain]

For context, nobody that understands climate science claims “shallow IR convection alone warms the deep ocean” That was the other guy’s strawman, and we’ve already moved past it.

The actual physics is: the ocean gains heat almost exclusively through surface energy fluxes, then that heat is redistributed downward by fluid dynamics. The math is just the heat equation used in every climate and ocean model: ∂T/∂t = K∇²T + Q/(ρcₚ).

Radiative input Q is applied at the surface boundary, not at depth. K (thermal + turbulent diffusivity) represents mixing by wind, convection, shear, and circulation.

Ocean heat uptake is ~10 W/m2 globally averaged. Ocean heat capacity is enormous: ρcₚ = 4×10⁶ J/m³·K. So even a tiny sustained flux gives long term warming: 10 W/m2 over 50 years deposits ~1.6×10¹⁰ J/m2, enough to warm the upper 700 m by ~0.6C.

That’s exactly what Argo floats measure. The system is surface forced, mechanically mixed, and integrates energy over time. That’s literally standard fluid dynamics + thermodynamics, and it’s the foundation of modern ocean heat content science.

Does surface heat really perform convection at lower depths?

Or does the heat just dissipate as it meets up with cooler temperatures either in the water or in the air or both?

 

[Anomalism]

Does surface heat really perform convection at lower depths?

Or does the heat just dissipate as it meets up with cooler temperatures either in the water or in the air or both?

Yes, it absolutely does, and here’s why.

When the surface warms, it creates a temperature gradient: the water at the very top is slightly less dense and warmer than the water below. That difference triggers convection. Buoyant parcels of water rise and sink, which mixes the heat downward.

Simultaneously, wind-driven turbulence and shear at the surface stir the top layers, further redistributing energy. The heat doesn’t just sit there or vanish; it’s carried down mechanically and statistically until it reaches equilibrium over longer timescales. That’s why the Argo floats detect warming hundreds of meters below the surface even though the IR or sunlight only deposits energy at the very top.

Surface forcing plus fluid dynamics drives the vertical transport. The air above matters too, but the main downward pathway is fluid mixing in the ocean itself.

 

[westwall]

That puff of vapor idea isn’t how heat transfer works in liquids. Infrared absorption excites molecular motion in the top microns, but that energy doesn’t vanish into the sky; it spreads through the water via conduction and drives convection as warmer water becomes buoyant and mixes with cooler layers. Evaporation is a separate process at the surface and only accounts for a small fraction of energy flux.

The bulk of the absorbed IR energy stays in the liquid and is redistributed by molecular collisions, turbulence, and convective motion, which is exactly what Argo floats measure in the upper hundreds of meters. You can’t just wave it away by pointing at evaporation.

As I keep telling you, the heat never gets to the liquid. That's the whole point. A point that destroys your silly theory at the first test.

 

[Anomalism]

As I keep telling you, the heat never gets to the liquid. That's the whole point. A point that destroys your silly theory at the first test.

That “destroys it at first test” claim is pure hand waving. You’re conflating photon absorption with deep penetration. Once infrared photons are absorbed in the top microns, that energy immediately becomes thermal motion. From there, conduction, convection, and turbulence carry heat downward.

Again, this is standard thermodynamics and fluid dynamics. It's weird that somebody that claims to be a scientist doesn't understand basic science.

 

[westwall]

That “destroys it at first test” claim is pure hand waving. You’re conflating photon absorption with deep penetration. Once infrared photons are absorbed in the top microns, that energy immediately becomes thermal motion. From there, conduction, convection, and turbulence carry heat downward.

Again, this is standard thermodynamics and fluid dynamics. It's weird that somebody that claims to be a scientist doesn't understand basic science.

Yours is the handwaving. Like I said you keep posting the same silly nonsense.

 

[Anomalism]

Yours is the handwaving. Like I said you keep posting the same silly nonsense.

I'm posting about how basic science works and you're denying it.

 

[22lcidw]

I'm posting about how basic science works and you're denying it.

Goto those industrial nations that do little for climate change. You guys destroy people for the moment of your agendas. Like Elon Musk. You totally messed up the world ends in 2030 agenda with that. Of course there could be something else happening.

 

[Anomalism]

Goto those industrial nations that do little for climate change. You guys destroy people for the moment of your agendas. Like Elon Musk. You totally messed up the world ends in 2030 agenda with that. Of course there could be something else happening.

What agenda do you think I have?

 

[westwall]

I'm posting about how basic science works and you're denying it.

No, you're ignoring the fundamental physics that refute your claims.

 

[westwall]

What agenda do you think I have?

A Marxist government that controls every aspect of humanity.

As my German friends all say " green is the new red"

 

[Mushroom]

You guys destroy people for the moment of your agendas. Like Elon Musk.

To be honest, that is one that actually makes me laugh the hardest.

I have always seen him as a snake oil salesman, and still do to this day.

But I also remember in the 2000s and 2010s, when people were ejaculating all over themselves with how awesome he was. Elon could do no wrong. Elon was the new Messiah! Elon was was going to fix the world!

And a few years later when he let it be known he was voting for Donald Trump, he was another Hitler!

That alone screams to me that it was never about climate or anything other than politics. And I despise politics.

 

[Anomalism]

A Marxist government that controls every aspect of humanity.

As my German friends all say " green is the new red"

I'm not a Marxist. Lol I'm pro guns and agree with right wingers about illegals. I also don't trust a government with centralized power.

What Marxist positions have I ever advocated for?

 

[westwall]

I'm not a Marxist. Lol I'm pro guns and agree with right wingers about illegals. I also don't trust a government with centralized power.

What Marxist positions have I ever advocated for?

Global climate control laws that place government controls over every human being.

Duh...

 

[Anomalism]

Global climate control laws that place government controls over every human being.

Duh...

I have explicitly not taken any policy positions throughout this conversation. I even said I think many of the right wing's policy concerns are reasonable and defensible enough that I won't debate them.

I have only spoken about science itself.

You're making stuff up.

 

[westwall]

I have explicitly not taken any policy positions throughout this conversation. You're just making stuff up now. I even said I think many of the right wing's policy concerns are reasonable and defensible enough that I won't debate them.

I have only spoken about science itself.

You repeat the exact same mantra that every global warming fraudster presents as their raison detre for taking absolute control of every aspect of human life, so spare us your claims of innocence.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

This argument comes from bad faith. You already know there's a difference between climate and weather.

Warmer = Global Warming
Colder = Climate Change or weather or whatever or DENIER!!

 

[Anomalism]

You repeat the exact same mantra that every global warming fraudster presents as their raison detre for taking absolute control of every aspect of human life, so spare us your claims of innocence.

That's literally not my position. You're trying to gaslight me. Lol

 

[westwall]

That's literally not my position. You're trying to gaslight me. Lol

It's literally EXACTLY what you are doing.