Judge Cannon has blown it.

[Rumpole]

Yes, really. The NYC judgement against Trump is an absolute atrocity and COMPLETELY political. Just because other liberal judges don't oppose it, doesn't make it any less so.

What evidence do you have to support you claim of it being 'political'?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The charge is an espionage violation and this is a criminal procedure, which takes precedence over civil statutes. PRA is therefore irrelevant.

Sure

This won’t end well

 

[MAGA Macho Man]

The charge is an espionage violation and this is a criminal procedure, which takes precedence over civil statutes. PRA is therefore irrelevant.

The key point is that appellate court review on an interlocutory basis is hard to get because it requires a compelling basis. And if Smith pursues that course, it will almost certainly mean weeks of delay that knocks the case off the trial calendar.

Even at that, Judge Cannon's order to the parties is a routine pre-trial step. What Smith dislikes is that it hints at preservation of the Presidential Records Act as an issue of fact for the jury. What Smith wants is for no such defense to be available for Trump.

Smith knows that he has been outplayed and that the documents case is unlikely to go to trial before the election. I
understand the point of option #1 from judge Cannon is that the prosecutor would have to allow the jurors to see all of the documents he claims were illegally held by Trump and judge whether they were secret documents or personal papers.

Smith does not want the jury, or even Trump, to see the documents upon which he has built his case.

 

[j-mac]

If you think you can rebut my comment with something other than a non substantive snarky one liner, feel free to do so.

 

[j-mac]

If you think you can rebut my comment with something other than a non substantive snarky one liner, feel free to do so.

First off, it was a question based on the fact that you aren't the first in here to use those exact words...

Second, your opinion doesn't deserve a rebuttal, because it is a one sided loaded opinion....

You think that Judge Cannon should act differently, as does all of you partisan hacks, because you have NO concern about the rights, or precedents your ilk is currently setting with your vendetta of election interference currently going on with Trump...

Your hatred is so pronounced that you will promote any ridiculous lie, make any ridiculous statement, and violate the rights of anyone who gets in your way concerning stopping Trump, or destroying America...

You are an enemy of this nation, and unamerican to the precise definition...rot in hell bitch.

 

[Marener]

Your hatred is so pronounced that you will promote any ridiculous lie, make any ridiculous statement, and violate the rights of anyone who gets in your way concerning stopping Trump, or destroying America...

A ridiculous statement like claiming highly classified DoD documents are “personal”?

 

[j-mac]

A ridiculous statement like claiming highly classified DoD documents are “personal”?

You don't have any clue what the documents were...All you know is what you've been told, and considering your sources of news, and how you slavishly regurgitate anything they tell you, your the ridiculous one here.

 

[WorldWatcher]

You don't have any clue what the documents were...All you know is what you've been told, and considering your sources of news, and how you slavishly regurgitate anything they tell you, your the ridiculous one here.

You know the type, level of classification, and source of each of the documents is listed is indictment right?

WW

 

[j-mac]

You know the type, level of classification, and source of each of the documents is listed is indictment right?

WW

I also know that in our current system the amount of "Over classification" is rampant....Not to mention we don't know, and probably never will, what exactly was retained by Trump, or Biden for that matter...

Now, being a former service member that had a clearance, I don't like what either one of them did with those docs...But, we know that one of them had the power to de classify the docs in question, and one didn't....

 

[WorldWatcher]

I also know that in our current system the amount of "Over classification" is rampant....Not to mention we don't know, and probably never will, what exactly was retained by Trump, or Biden for that matter...

Now, being a former service member that had a clearance, I don't like what either one of them did with those docs...But, we know that one of them had the power to de classify the docs in question, and one didn't....

Correct. With you on that, except you left out Pence.

Now all FPOTUS#45 has to do is file a motion with the court claiming he declassified the documents and the particulars for each document the who, what, where, and when.

However declassifying them, if he makes the claim doesn’t mean they are still not government property or National Defense Information.

NDI and classified do not mean the same things. Something can still be NDI without being classified.

WW

 

[DBA]

Who should they go after?

The better question would be who shouldn’t they go after. They could go to any bank and get their list of clients from previously paid jumbo loans and look over the paperwork. It would be a financial windfall for the city to fine all those businesses and individuals who over-stated the value of their assets, fining them plus interest from the time they took out the loans.

You play dumb, but you aren’t this dumb. They aren’t interested in doing this because it would cause an uproar the likes they have never seen. Getting Trump will suffice.

 

[dudmuck]

Correct. With you on that, except you left out Pence.

Now all FPOTUS#45 has to do is file a motion with the court claiming he declassified the documents and the particulars for each document the who, what, where, and when.

However declassifying them, if he makes the claim doesn’t mean they are still not government property or National Defense Information.

NDI and classified do not mean the same things. Something can still be NDI without being classified.

WW

 

[Dragonlady]

Most of you on the right probably haven't figured this out, judging from some of your comments which clearly indicate you do not understand the forces that are in play, i.e.,, what the actual dynamics are, (it's way in Smith's favor, FYI) because they right wing echo chamber isn't telling you, but Judge Cannon fucked up on the law, royally. Jack will file a motion in limine, and if she ignores it, he'll have grounds for a petition for writ of mandamus, and he'll either get the 11th circuit to straighten her out on the law (which she has turned on it's head), or get her ass off the case. She's bitten off far more than she can chew.

Let's see if I'm right. We'll know in a day or two. One thing is certain, Jack's not going to let the last 2 page order where she wrote 'unprecedented and unjust', he's not going to let that slide.

This is really an interesting case, particularly because we have an extremely wet behind the ears judge handling a case who is in way way way over her head. But, that's the system, whoever is next on the rotation, regardless of experience matching, is the one assigned, and she got it. Clearly, the system is ripe for reform.

Excellent synopsis. I've loved watching this unfold. Cannon trying to avoid issuing an Order that Smith can Appeal. Smith has been low key, and masterful in doing an end around and allowing none of her nonsense to stand.

 

[Nostra]

A ridiculous statement like claiming highly classified DoD documents are “personal”?

Have you seen them? How would you know what they are?

 

[Seymour Flops]

Link below. You first have to look at Smith's motion, which gave many citations, case law, and how her response addressed none of it. She merely wrote:

Separately, to the extent the Special Counsel demands an anticipatory finalization of jury instructions prior to trial, prior to a charge conference, and prior to the presentation of trial defenses and evidence, the Court declines that demand as unprecedented and unjust

That's clearly an incompetent response, far below the standard one would expect from a seasoned judge.

She goes on to say:
The Court’s Order soliciting preliminary draft instructions on certain counts should not be misconstrued as declaring a final definition on any essential element or asserted defense in this case.

She should have stated that in the order to Smith. Looks like she is backpedaling.

Nor should it be interpreted as anything other than what it was: a genuine attempt, in the context of the upcoming trial, to better understand the parties’ competing positions and the
questions to be submitted to the jury in this complex case of first impression always, any party remains free to avail itself of whatever appellate options it sees fit to invoke, as permitted by law

She totally ignored Smith's indication of how the PRA is irrelevant to this case, and that her instructions contradicted the law.


She's deliberately avoiding giving Smith something he can appeal,. that's what it looks like to me.

But, a motion in limine, if not responded to, he can file a writ of mandamus to get her to apply the law, or get her off the case.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/81d4d3af-04fd-4d8d-9903-5427d55bf1e2.pdf?itid=lk_inline_manual_5

So, what is your objection to Cannon's statement that Smith's request is "unprecedented and unjust?"

Is it precedented? I'm no lawyer, but I've read a lot of true crime books and in every one in which the case was given to a jury, the jury instructions were given after the presentation of evidence. Do you know of cases in which the instructions were deceded by the judge before there was even a jury seated? If not, there are not precedents. So then Smith's request is indeed "unprecedented."

Is it unjust? I believe it is, but that is an opinion. Smith wants to take away a likely key part of Trump's defense before the trial is even close to starting. How is that fair?

I know that Democrats would want that. Y'all obviously find this whole "fair trial" aspect of the Trump prosecutions to be distasteful and time-wasting. Sorry! That's how America works. The people operating Biden have been working hard to change America into something else, but they haven't done it yet. Not completely.

Is Smith really going to go to a higher court and complain that Cannon said "something mean" about his argument, at the same time as ruling the way he wanted her to?

The charge is an espionage violation and this is a criminal procedure, which takes precedence over civil statutes. PRA is therefore irrelevant.

Wait, what?

Trump is not charged with merely possession of classified documents. That's not a crime, I possessed classified documents many times when I was in the military. He is charged with unauthorized possession of classified documents (which I must remember to remind you, H. Clinton, Pence, and J. Biden were not, and never will be, charged with). If his lawyers can convince the jury - or any number of members of the jury - that the PRA authorized him to possess them, he will be acquitted or there will be a mistrial due to a hung jury.

Are there any cases to support your claim that criminal procedures "take precedence" over civil statutes? In otherwords, when a person is charged with a crime, their lawyers are not allowed to cite a civil statute in their clients' defense? What are the cases?

 

[Rumpole]

The key point is that appellate court review on an interlocutory basis is hard to get because it requires a compelling basis. And if Smith pursues that course, it will almost certainly mean weeks of delay that knocks the case off the trial calendar.

She is going to delay it passed the election anyway. She is setting it up so she can dismiss the case after trial.

Even at that, Judge Cannon's order to the parties is a routine pre-trial step. What Smith dislikes is that it hints at preservation of the Presidential Records Act as an issue of fact for the jury. What Smith wants is for no such defense to be available for Trump.

She's wrong on the law, period.

Smith knows that he has been outplayed and that the documents case is unlikely to go to trial before the election. I
understand the point of option #1 from judge Cannon is that the prosecutor would have to allow the jurors to see all of the documents he claims were illegally held by Trump and judge whether they were secret documents or personal papers.

Smith does not want the jury, or even Trump, to see the documents upon which he has built his case.

You've got it wrong.

This is a criminal case involving a violation of the Espionage act. The PRA is irrelevant. I feel fairly confident Smith will go the in limine/writ mandamus route to compel into compliance with the law, or take her off the case. Of course, I could be wrong, but that is what makes the most sense to me, based on my research. As for delays, it's not really a compelling argument given that's she's delaying it past the election, anyway.

 

[Rumpole]

First off, it was a question based on the fact that you aren't the first in here to use those exact words...

So?

Second, your opinion doesn't deserve a rebuttal, because it is a one sided loaded opinion....

Congratulations, that is a text book cop out, as all 'doesn't deserve' responses are. You see, in case you forgot, we are here to debate, and if you disagree with something, well now, just debate it. But saying 'you don't deserve' is a cop out to avoid debate, which generally means you have no counter argument or you are intellectually lazy, or stupid, or all of the above. Take your pick.

You think that Judge Cannon should act differently, as does all of you partisan hacks, because you have NO concern about the rights, or precedents your ilk is currently setting with your vendetta of election interference currently going on with Trump...

That's an allegation, or rather, two allegations, but they are non substantive, so, if you want a rebuttal, substantiate your allegations, otherwise, I'll file them in the incompetent arguments file.

Your hatred is so pronounced that you will promote any ridiculous lie, make any ridiculous statement, and violate the rights of anyone who gets in your way concerning stopping Trump, or destroying America...

Vacuous drivel. Weasel words/ Rants are not substantive arguments.

You are an enemy of this nation, and unamerican to the precise definition...rot in hell bitch.

See above.

 

[WorldWatcher]

So, what is your objection to Cannon's statement that Smith's request is "unprecedented and unjust?"

Is it precedented? I'm no lawyer, but I've read a lot of true crime books and in every one in which the case was given to a jury, the jury instructions were given after the presentation of evidence. Do you know of cases in which the instructions were deceded by the judge before there was even a jury seated? If not, there are not precedents. So then Smith's request is indeed "unprecedented."

A part of any criminal case deals with pretrial motions. Many of those motions have to do with what evidence will be allowed in, what witnesses can testify to what, and experts and their qualifications being screened by the court.

Part of the decision is based on the relevance of the information to the question before the court/jury.

The questions before the court hinge on questions of law and question of fact. Questions of law are decided by the Judge outside the presence of the jury as it is not the juries job to determine questions of law, it is there job to determine questions of fact based on the evidence.

Is it unjust? I believe it is, but that is an opinion. Smith wants to take away a likely key part of Trump's defense before the trial is even close to starting. How is that fair?

Yes it's fair. First, The PRA of 1978 clearly does not say or even imply what FPOTUS#45 is trying to twist it into saying. That is a question of law for the Judge to decide pretrial. Secondly, 18 USC 793(e) is a criminal statute dealing with willful retention of national defense information and the PRA of 1978 is civil law pertaining to the handling of presidential records by the President.

FPOTUS#45 was not the President when the alleged crime occurred and therefore has no Presidential protections pertaining to national defense information.

His use of the PRA is an attempt at CYA.

Is Smith really going to go to a higher court and complain that Cannon said "something mean" about his argument, at the same time as ruling the way he wanted her to?

Not in the least, if he takes it to the 11th Circuit it will be because Judge Cannon got a "Question of Law" wrong which HAS to be corrected prior to trial for a "fair" trial to occur.

Why?

Because if the Judge gets a question of law wrong, it goes to the jury and if the jury acquits then Double Jeopardy attaches. After the fact the prosecution cannot appeal an error in question of law. However if a Judge gets a questio of law wrong against the defense, goes to the jury, and is convicted - the Defense CAN appeal the verdict.

That is the difference.

WW

 

[Seymour Flops]

What is the law or precedent that requires a judge to accept the prosecution's proposed jury instructions before the trial even begins or a jury is even seated?

There is none, so there is no reason for Cannon to be over-ruled, and her removal is a pipe dream.

Jury instructions will be a key part of this case, because the facts are not in dispute, as far as I know. The facts as known by the participants in the trial, anyway. Many posters on here are very confused as to exactly who did what, believing the TDS media's claims. But Trump had copies of documents with classified markings at his residence long after leaving the White House (as did many other former presidents, and people who were never president).

The question will be whether it was legal for him to have them. He had a security clearance until shortly after he was indicted, he had legit reasons to keep copies of the documents. He was president when he moved the documents to Mar-a-Lago. The jury will have to decide how these facts fit in with the laws.

That is what the Democrats fear: An informed jury deciding for themselves, rather than twelve partisan hacks who already "know" that Trump is guilty regardless of what the law says.

 

[j-mac]

Correct. With you on that, except you left out Pence.

Now all FPOTUS#45 has to do is file a motion with the court claiming he declassified the documents and the particulars for each document the who, what, where, and when.

However declassifying them, if he makes the claim doesn’t mean they are still not government property or National Defense Information.

NDI and classified do not mean the same things. Something can still be NDI without being classified.

WW

We shall see. This is bound to end up at SCOTUS…