Job's Question

[Chuckt]

Is Job perfect or not?

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.

This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.

Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.

This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.

BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.

I don't think you should criticize a man in desperation.

Lot is righteous because he borrowed God's righteousness by believing in God and not from his own actions.

 

[Chuckt]

I don't have a problem with "Free Will". I have a problem with burning people for all eternity when they make the wrong choices. Especially when it isn't all that clear what the "right" choices are. Is there still some guy burning in Hell for eating meat during Lent?

Lent is a Catholic tradition that I could care less about. If they wish to practice their religion that way, I respect that but I don't feel it is something I should concern myself about.

You stated you have a problem with people burning in eternity for making the wrong choices.

In my primitive understanding, I think it is risky for God to take back beings that didn't want to do things right the first time that they had a second, third, fourth, fifth chance at salvation. I believe God knows what He is doing and there are reasons for what He is doing that aren't stated anywhere.

The question is, why don't you make the right choice then? You use your own conscience to explain away God. King David wrote the book of Psalms because he didn't have counselors and no one to counsel him. If King David had counselors, do you think we would have the whole book of Psalms?

Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

God speaks today through His word and I heard Him many times through His word. You should challenge God if He exists to reveal Himself to you.

 

[Chuckt]

My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.

The wager where God and Satan are betting a dollar only shows up in secular books on Job. There is no such wager.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Is Job perfect or not?

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.

This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.

Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.

This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.

BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.

Joe, the Word of God teaches us to know no man after the flesh. What does this mean? It means if we look upon the flesh of a man we are going to come to a "wrong judgment" about him!

For instance, in you I see a man that has a very keen sense of discernment, a man who also has a deep understanding of what it is to be merciful and compassionate, a man not afraid to speak truth as he sees it! How rare you are, Joe!

Now I could not tell you that if it were not true, Joe. Because the bible says all liars and those who love a lie will go to hell! I do not want to go to hell, Joe, I know that place is real. I know it is. Yet I have to tell you at the same time I am not seeing you after the flesh! I just cannot do that! Listen, even if Christians saw each other after the flesh they would find themselves all alone.. because everyone is at different places in their walk...

Now if I was seeing you after the flesh ( and believe me I have failed miserably before with people concerning this! ) I would be judging you for everything you say and everything you do and don't do ---> rather than what I am picking up in my spirit about you.. so that is all there is to say about that because truly I am not walking in perfection as those men did or Pauls brethen who had attained it had - I am desiring to press on towards that mark but attained it? Nope, not me..

... now some did, Joe. That is all there is to it and keep in mind that King David was said to be a man after Gods own heart! If we were to judge King David for murdering Uriah the Hittite, for adultery with Bathsheba, for counting the men in the census, we would be judging amiss because God is looking upon the heart of David and with that we must once again realize God was not knowing David after the flesh but after by the Spirit. Also - David repented quickly! Did you ever notice that about David? He did. When he got it wrong? He repented quickly over it! He wasted no time. When they wanted they wanted to stone David he encouraged himself in the Lord- David was a man that trusted the Lord. That is the truth.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I have just given you scriptures from both Old Testament and New Testament that prove you are wrong. Jesus is not the only one called perfect.

So perfect people don't need Jesus' salvation? They wouldn't need to have faith in him? I expect (know) there are many Christians who would greatly disagree with that. It's just another example of a biblical contradiction. I know that Jesus would greatly disagree with his being our salvation, it being very anti-Jewish. He preached repentance, which Paul with his salvation through Jesus flesh and blood, discounted. James certainly disagreed with Paul as well.

Of course they needed salvation, P.T.! Don't you realize the difference in where they were before Jesus died on the cross and after? Some slept .... and Abraham and other heroes of the faith were translated to heaven AFTER the cross.. not before.. before then Abraham was in a place where those in hell could see Lazarus in Abrahams bosom - afterwards - those in hell could not see Lazarus nor Abraham nor anyone else who had been separated by a great gulf ---> as they were taken from that place and on to heaven after the cross--------> as it was at the moment that redemption took place! Yes! THEN they were translated! You see the difference? From Abrahams bosom to heaven? Yes... there is a difference...

Jesus was very clear that he was the way to heaven in that he said, If any man deny me before men, I will deny them before my Father in heaven.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, P.T. , no man comes to the father except through him.

You are mistaken about the religious leaders and Jesus, P.T. Many knew that Jesus was the Messiah. The Scriptures declare this!

It is written:

Nevertheless, among the chief rulers also many believed on him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, let they should be put out of the synagogue. For they loved the praises of men more than the praises of God.

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth no on me, but on him that sent me. And he said he that seeth me has seen him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believeth not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

He that rejected me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. <-----------this is important!

For I have not spoken of myself, but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting, whatsoever I speak therefore even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. - John 12: 42 - 50

The Apostle Paul in no way discounted Jesus Christ, P.T. You are leaning upon your own wisdom and understanding here and becoming confused. Look at the scriptures, beloved! the Gospel is not earthly wisdom!

It is written:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND WILL BRING TO NOTHING THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE PRUDENT.

Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made the foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom, But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
- 1 Corinthians 1: 18 - 24


And again it is written:

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - 1 Corinthians 1: 4, 5

I am quoting Paul in both of these scriptures, P. T.

Now let us go on to James............

It is written:

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by which ye are called?

If ye fulfill the royal law according to scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF, ye do well.

But if you have respect for persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law of transgressors, For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, is guilty of all. For he said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So speak ye, and do so, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy, and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. - James 2: 5 - 13

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Is Job perfect or not?

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.

This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.

Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.

This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.

BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.

I don't think you should criticize a man in desperation.

Lot is righteous because he borrowed God's righteousness by believing in God and not from his own actions.

Looking to the word of God we find the answer concerning what God counts as righteousness...

It is written:

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons in hell believe that- and shudder!

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Issac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness., and he was called God's friend.

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. - James 2:19 - 26

Back to the "perfect man" one more time!

It is written:

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

- James 3:1, 2

Did any attain that mark in the New Testament? Yes.. The Apostle Paul made clear they did.. yet? Paul in so many words said about this, don't stop there! Keep going! Keep going! There is more! Far, far more!

For some here who have not yet started the journey I would say, why not take the John 7:17 challenge?
______________________________
It is written in John: 7: 7 - 20

If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth. There is nothing false about him. Has not Moses given you the Law? Yet not one of you keeps the Law. Why are you trying to kill me? - Jesus

 

[Sunshine]

My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.

Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.

And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"

While I agree, on the other hand I gotta wonder what you mean by Eisenhower Republican. Theocracy?

I mean the days when Republicans thought government wasn't the enemy, the rich should happily pay their fair share, and the GOP put the interest of working Americans ahead of that of multi-national corporations.

Seriously, Joe, you need a life. There were no Republicans nor Democrats in the Bible. Only 'publicans and sinners' in Jesus' day. All the books are an allegory to something. I think the fact that Job ignores his negative friends is a lesson to us all to avoid negative people, and trust God. Sadly, there are so many people these days avoiding them is almost impossible to do.

 

[Sunshine]

My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.

Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.

And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"

No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.

I would suggest you go back to the first two chapters of the book. God and Satan make a wager. First Satan destroys all Job's stuff and kills his children, but he doesn't renounce God. Then God and Satan ratchet it up a bit and give Job all sorts of diseases. Which is pretty reprehensible.

But it wouldn't have made as good a Story if God popped in at the end and said to Job and his "friends" that "Oh, yeah, it was like a bet I made with Satan. And it got out of hand. My bad!"

Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are forces in the universe bigger and more powerful than you? That you have no say over most aspects of your life in spite of 'the power of positive thinking.' How do you know that you, yourself, are not a sick joke that God played on the rest of us?

 

[Sunshine]

[qu

Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan... BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...

There is a whole lot of problems with this philosophy.

The first is that God is absolved from what Satan does after he gave Satan the authority.

That didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg, that doesn't work for most workplaces when the low level guy screws up.

God allowed something horrible to happen he could have prevented.

Second problem. If Satan/Lucifer/Old Nick lost his power after the whole "Garden of Eden" Fiasco. (That's where God left the tree right where they could get at it, those kooky kids!) then why does he still have God's authority to torment Job, when Job lives AFTER Adam and Eve. (Supposedly being a good person from around Noah's time, I would guess.)

There were no Nazis in the Bible.

The Forces that rule the Universe are autonomous. They do not need your approval. Remind yourself of that the next time baseball size hail falls on your roof after you forgot to pay up the homeowner's policy.

 

[JoeB131]

[
If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity. You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.

For the record. I don't think Jesus ever existed. I think he is a literary device made up by Saul of Tarses to sell his fancy new religion.

[
God punished Jesus for every sin you commit.

You should do more research on this cup and the wrath of God that Jesus experienced because the punishment of just three days isn't what you think and there is more punishment to scourging and crucifixion than you know. The crown of thorns had something like one inch thorns pressed into his head, his bones went out of joint when they dropped the cross into the hole to make it upright, you have to press up with your body to breathe when his feet were already nailed to a cross, and some crucifixions were close enough to the ground that wild animals came to eat the toes of people on the cross. The shame of being naked on a cross without any anesthesia with your skin ripped off and your bowels exposed from the scourging. Did you ever have a cut or a skin allergy? Skin is the most sensitive thing on your body and it hurts.

Yes, Crucifixtion is a horrible way to die, and poor Spartacus died a terrible death...

But frankly, concentrating on how Jesus died is what they did in the Dark Ages, and it had really bad results.

 

[JoeB131]

While I agree, on the other hand I gotta wonder what you mean by Eisenhower Republican. Theocracy?[/QUOTE]

I mean the days when Republicans thought government wasn't the enemy, the rich should happily pay their fair share, and the GOP put the interest of working Americans ahead of that of multi-national corporations.

Seriously, Joe, you need a life. There were no Republicans nor Democrats in the Bible. Only 'publicans and sinners' in Jesus' day. All the books are an allegory to something. I think the fact that Job ignores his negative friends is a lesson to us all to avoid negative people, and trust God. Sadly, there are so many people these days avoiding them is almost impossible to do.

Do try to pay attention. SOmeone specifically asked me what I meant by "Eisenhower Republican" and I explained.

The Book of Job is an allegory for Iron Age people who no longer accepted a capricious God (i.e. forces of nature), and wanted a better explanation why God lets bad things happen to good people. My opinion is that it fails, miserably.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are forces in the universe bigger and more powerful than you? That you have no say over most aspects of your life in spite of 'the power of positive thinking.' How do you know that you, yourself, are not a sick joke that God played on the rest of us?

I think I would need something called "EVIDENCE" before I would accept that there are sky pixies who are sending me he to torment you by pointing out that you are borderline retarded.

you should consider it a gift. Most of your friends won't tell you how stupid you are.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Joe? You are what I like to refer to as a "big fish"... supremely difficult to catch but worth the wait!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

p.s. I know that you know how intelligent Sunshine is, Joe. VERY.

 

[Chuckt]

[
If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity. You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.

For the record. I don't think Jesus ever existed. I think he is a literary device made up by Saul of Tarses to sell his fancy new religion. QUOTE]

Execution[edit]Scholars have identified passages that mention Jesus in the context of his execution:

Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b -"on the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus the Nazarene" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Karlsruhe 2)
Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b – "Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Firenze II.1.8–9, Karlsruhe 2)
Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b – "Do you suppose Jesus the Nazarene was one for whom a defense could be made?" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Firenze II.1.8–9, Karlsruhe 2 )
Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b – "With Jesus the Nazarene it was different" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Firenze II.1.8–9, Karlsruhe 2)
The complete passage is: "On (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover Jesus the Nazarene was hanged and a herald went forth before him forty days heralding, 'Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and instigated and seduced Israel to idolatry. Whoever knows anything in defense may come and state it.' But since they did not find anything in his defense they hanged him on (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Do you suppose that Jesus the Nazarene was one for whom a defense could be made? He was a mesit (someone who instigated Israel to idolatry), concerning whom the Merciful [God]says: Show him no compassion and do not shield him (Deut. 13:9). With Jesus the Nazarene it was different. For he was close to the government."[64][90]

In the Florence manuscript of the Talmud (1177 CE) an addition is made to Sanhedrin 43a saying that Yeshu was hanged on the eve of the Sabbath.[91]

Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JoeB131]

p.s. I know that you know how intelligent Sunshine is, Joe. VERY.

actually, I don't know that. All the encounters I've had with her in the last few years have involved lots of name-calling and very few thoughtful ideas. I really can't point to something truly insightful she has ever said.

And that isn't a partisan thing. There are a lot of conservatives and Christians here who make their points very well.

 

[JoeB131]

Is Job perfect or not?

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.

This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.

Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.

This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.

BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.

I don't think you should criticize a man in desperation.

Lot is righteous because he borrowed God's righteousness by believing in God and not from his own actions.

No, Lot was NOT righteous.

Lot offered up both of his virgin daugthers to an angry mob and told them to "do with them as you see fit" after they had threatened to rape the two angels who had visited him.

And after his wife got turned into a condiment, he proceeded to have drunken sex with his daughters. I have to honestly ask, how drunk do you have to get to have drunken sex with your daughter. TWICE!!!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

[
If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity. You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.

For the record. I don't think Jesus ever existed. I think he is a literary device made up by Saul of Tarses to sell his fancy new religion.

[
God punished Jesus for every sin you commit.

You should do more research on this cup and the wrath of God that Jesus experienced because the punishment of just three days isn't what you think and there is more punishment to scourging and crucifixion than you know. The crown of thorns had something like one inch thorns pressed into his head, his bones went out of joint when they dropped the cross into the hole to make it upright, you have to press up with your body to breathe when his feet were already nailed to a cross, and some crucifixions were close enough to the ground that wild animals came to eat the toes of people on the cross. The shame of being naked on a cross without any anesthesia with your skin ripped off and your bowels exposed from the scourging. Did you ever have a cut or a skin allergy? Skin is the most sensitive thing on your body and it hurts.

Yes, Crucifixtion is a horrible way to die, and poor Spartacus died a terrible death...

But frankly, concentrating on how Jesus died is what they did in the Dark Ages, and it had really bad results.

Joe, first you say, frankly I don't believe Jesus ever existed, then you say but frankly concentrating on how Jesus died..... How can you concentrate on how Jesus died if he never existed? You know what is happening to you? You are hearing the Word of God and you are beginning to believe.....keep reading, Joe. Something good is happening here.....faith cometh by hearing!

 

[Chuckt]

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.

This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.

Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.

This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.

BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.

I don't think you should criticize a man in desperation.

Lot is righteous because he borrowed God's righteousness by believing in God and not from his own actions.

No, Lot was NOT righteous.

Lot offered up both of his virgin daugthers to an angry mob and told them to "do with them as you see fit" after they had threatened to rape the two angels who had visited him.

And after his wife got turned into a condiment, he proceeded to have drunken sex with his daughters. I have to honestly ask, how drunk do you have to get to have drunken sex with your daughter. TWICE!!!

Somehow I think Lot knew they didn't want his daughters.

Genesis 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

He was obviously out of it and didn't know as the text says.

 

[JoeB131]

[
If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity. You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.

For the record. I don't think Jesus ever existed. I think he is a literary device made up by Saul of Tarses to sell his fancy new religion. QUOTE]

Execution[edit]Scholars have identified passages that mention Jesus in the context of his execution:

Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b ]

The Talmud was written in the sixth century, when Christianity was already established as a state religion.

Therefore, it is not an eyewitness account.