Job's Question

[Book of Jeremiah]

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

Is Job perfect or not?

Of course he was, P.T.! God is not a man that He should lie nor the son of man that He should repent! It is written!

But just so that you know Job, Noah, Abraham and others were not alone in being marked a perfect man? I have one more for you to wrap this first one up in evidence of the existance of the "perfect man"... P.T...

It is written:

I press toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be PERFECT, be thus minded, and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, where to WE HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. - Philippians 3: 14, 15, 16

What is Paul saying here? He is saying as many of you who are already "perfect" ----->walking perfect before the LORD, be like minded, and although you all have already "attained" this perfection do not stop there but keep on going! Get it?? This is not it, there is far more! Far, far more glory to God! I've got another one but I'll post this for you now as I don't want to keep you waiting! - Karen

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Here is the other one the Holy Ghost wants you to have, P.T. :

It is written:

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. - Ephesians 4:12

This is the defining of perfection according to God, P.T. Do you understand? Also real quick side note the Lord is reminding me to mention Job 37: 16 which is about being perfect in knowledge which is something that came with the promise in Hebrews 11: 13 when the Holy Spirit came because it is the anointing that teaches all things.. we know all things by the anointing ----> that is in 1 John 2: 20 But ye have the unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things..

This is what those mentioned in Hebrews 11:13 were waiting for but did not receive in their own lifetime... Hebrews 11: 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but haveing seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

And again it is written in Hebrews 11: 39 and 40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, recieved not the promise. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. You see? This is what came with the new Covenant which Jesus made possible through the Cross.. be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect is now possible! How? By the promise! He has redeemed us, he has sent us the Holy Spirit.. Jesus said, It is finished. Yes, P.T. It is!!

 

[Chuckt]

[qu

Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan... BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...

There is a whole lot of problems with this philosophy.

The first is that God is absolved from what Satan does after he gave Satan the authority.

That didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg, that doesn't work for most workplaces when the low level guy screws up.

God allowed something horrible to happen he could have prevented.

Second problem. If Satan/Lucifer/Old Nick lost his power after the whole "Garden of Eden" Fiasco. (That's where God left the tree right where they could get at it, those kooky kids!) then why does he still have God's authority to torment Job, when Job lives AFTER Adam and Eve. (Supposedly being a good person from around Noah's time, I would guess.)

No. Adam gave Satan the authority and when Adam sinned, Satan got Federal Headship of the earth. Satan is called the god of this earth and Jesus had to redeam the title deed of the earth (Revelation 5:4 to 5:5).

Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

 

[Chuckt]

[qu

Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan... BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...

There is a whole lot of problems with this philosophy.

The first is that God is absolved from what Satan does after he gave Satan the authority.

That didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg, that doesn't work for most workplaces when the low level guy screws up.

God allowed something horrible to happen he could have prevented.

Second problem. If Satan/Lucifer/Old Nick lost his power after the whole "Garden of Eden" Fiasco. (That's where God left the tree right where they could get at it, those kooky kids!) then why does he still have God's authority to torment Job, when Job lives AFTER Adam and Eve. (Supposedly being a good person from around Noah's time, I would guess.)

God is not absolved of His responsibility because He took responsibility for making man by dying on the cross for our sins.

God could have prevented sin by taking away free will and then you would have all been like little robots doing only what your programming said.

You can't really compare the Nazis at Nuremburg to God. It is apples and oranges. Man was warned that if he ate of the tree that he would die spiritually. If you ask what we deserve or don't deserve, we don't deserve heaven because Adam was the prototype and the copies like you and me couldn't do any better and we're all prone to evil so we're not deserving of anything even though God gives us mercy and kindness and a second chance.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I believe we have established through scripture that God says many things about the perfect man, names those who were perfect ( Job was not the only man in the bible to marked as perfect ) and that Paul addressed those even before him who had attained perfection according to "God's standard of perfection" which is all we are looking for here.. God's definition.. not mans.. alright, P.T.?

Now let's move on to Jobs friends because it does appear you have left them out of the equation. Jobs friends had misunderstood Job's affliction and why he was going through what he was going through!

This book is very personal for me because I have suffered some pretty miserable things from those who meant well but missed the mark on what was happening to me at the time.. there was a time I was homeless, P.T. after I came to know Christ and some thought I must have sin in my life if I was suffering.. I must not be "tithing"! Tithing off of what?! I didn't even have a job at the time!

I was trying my best to find one but I had a son in kindergarten at the same time and without a place to live? That is a little hard to do! Nevertheless, I did learn to hang wallpaper with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then I got jobs! Still, P.T., I didn't get rich, I wasn't driving a Bentley or flying around in a helicopter and yet I loved God very much.. I came to the Lord when I was young, I gave my whole life to him when other girls my age were out dating and partying and having a good time! ( I'm not complaining - it was a blessing to know Jesus as a young woman )

Yet I was shut in with God and suffering........... so what was happening to me? Patience was having her perfect work! ha! ha! You want patience? Become a wallpaper hanger, friend! That will help get you there! Still I didn't have patience with many things... I didn't like people... I told the Lord could you please keep people away from me? I cannot stand them, Lord! LOL!!! Can you imagine? I was called to be a Laborer and I am telling God I cannot stand people. Oh my gosh. He should have just squashed me like a bug. Still I avoided people for many years - a total recluse other than my wallpaper jobs..

So when well meaning christians thought they would "help me out" they would say, well, if you were a member of a church, you know.........that would fix things! Or if you would just drop that vow you made not to marry anyone - you'd have a husband to take care of you! Yes, Jobs friends are alive and well even today, P.T. even today..... where am I going with this?

Job was a human being. If he came to his own defense, so what?! God obviously gave him the measure of grace to do it, did he not? If I told you some of the things I said during my own trials it would surely surprise you!

So God answers Job back, yes, but in the end what does God have Job do?

He has Job pray for his friends! Because they got it wrong! God didn't get anything wrong! Jobs friends got it wrong! Get it?

Note* reading your latest replies I notice you still do not get it, P.T. Perhaps you should try reading my responses and then answering? That would help I believe. I provided all kinds of scripture and evidence as to Gods teachings on the "perfect man" and you have conveniently ignored them all. Read up. Ignorance is not bliss. It is downright dangerous for the times we are headed into now! You need the Lord!

 

[JoeB131]

[
The problem is that my philosophy is not what many people wish to accept today. You are looking at things from purely a limited temporal view. God is looking at a much broader spiritual view from an eternal perspective. What the Nazis did was to play God and try to exterminate God's chosen people --- which if allowed would have nullified Biblical inerrancy. And this is exactly what Satan wants to do. Satan wants people to believe in evolution and billions of years, because such beliefs are a direct assult against Biblical truth. Until Satan is finally cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, Satan is doing his utmost to thwart God's ultimate plan, so that he will remain free and of relevance forever.

The fact the Nazis got as far as they did should be proof there is no God.

Maybe we should toss religion into the Lake of Firestone...

But again, we are getting back to Job. Satan wasn't thwarting any plan in Job. God gave Satan complete authority to do whatever sadistic thing he wanted to do to Job, just to prove to Satan Job wouldn't curse God.

 

[JoeB131]

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

Is Job perfect or not?

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.

This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.

Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.

This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.

BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.

 

[LittleNipper]

Is Job perfect or not?

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.

This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.

Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.

This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.

BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.

Job, Lot, and Jephthah all believed that God would ultimately save them from their sin and take them to heaven. It is not through the works of the flesh. These men came to realize that things men do and say often result in unforeseen problems/complications... They believed that God would make a way. That way is Christ Jesus.

 

[PainefulTruth]

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

That's not the point. I'm showing that the author of the Book of Job is trying to justify belief in an interactive God in view of God's apparent irrational administration of punishment and reward. But then he fails miserably in that attempt because he has no explanation or answer for the "why"s, instead saying to just stfu.

The real sham is that there is an explanation for God's seeming irrationality (if God exists), which is that God doesn't interact and is therefore not irrational. But all the "revealed" religions have come to power selling influence with their God(s) to intervene on their behalf if they'll just join their cult and support it with money, sacrifices and blind faith.

I bring up Job's perfection because Jesus is supposed to be, for some believers, the savior of mankind, in part, because he is the only perfect man.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

That's not the point. I'm showing that the author of the Book of Job is trying to justify belief in an interactive God in view of God's apparent irrational administration of punishment and reward. But then he fails miserably in that attempt because he has no explanation or answer for the "why"s, instead saying to just stfu.

The real sham is that there is an explanation for God's seeming irrationality (if God exists), which is that God doesn't interact and is therefore not irrational. But all the "revealed" religions have come to power selling influence with their God(s) to intervene on their behalf if they'll just join their cult and support it with money, sacrifices and blind faith.

I bring up Job's perfection because Jesus is supposed to be, for some believers, the savior of mankind, in part, because he is the only perfect man.

I have just given you scriptures from both Old Testament and New Testament that prove you are wrong. Jesus is not the only one called perfect. God called Noah a perfect man, he called Job a perfect man, Paul clearly stated that some believers had already attained perfection and I have provided the written word of God whereas you have provided nothing more than an opinion, P.T. The problem therein lies with you and not with the Word of God. The problem lies within you. This is the truth and you will have to come to terms with it because God is most certainly a personal God. Abraham was a friend of God's - how much more personal do you need it to get? I provide you with many, many scriptures - go into great detail to explain this to you and you pretend you have not been provided a shred of evidence. This is a lie. I tell you the truth. There is no more sure way to remain in eternal ignorance than to condemn the facts without examining them. To decide a matter before even listening to it - as Solomon said in proverbs, it is foolishness and will bring you shame. You have achieved both in a single moment. I am astonished that one who presented himself as seeking the truth of the matter would rejects it so boldly once it was put in front of him. I understand now why you would not answer last night when I posted the answers for you. You had no rebuttal and could not give an answer. You still can't. That is where we are at right now. You don't have an answer to refute the Word of God!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I believe we have established through scripture that God says many things about the perfect man, names those who were perfect ( Job was not the only man in the bible to marked as perfect ) and that Paul addressed those even before him who had attained perfection according to "God's standard of perfection" which is all we are looking for here.. God's definition.. not mans.. alright, P.T.?

Now let's move on to Jobs friends because it does appear you have left them out of the equation. Jobs friends had misunderstood Job's affliction and why he was going through what he was going through!

This book is very personal for me because I have suffered some pretty miserable things from those who meant well but missed the mark on what was happening to me at the time.. there was a time I was homeless, P.T. after I came to know Christ and some thought I must have sin in my life if I was suffering.. I must not be "tithing"! Tithing off of what?! I didn't even have a job at the time!

I was trying my best to find one but I had a son in kindergarten at the same time and without a place to live? That is a little hard to do! Nevertheless, I did learn to hang wallpaper with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then I got jobs! Still, P.T., I didn't get rich, I wasn't driving a Bentley or flying around in a helicopter and yet I loved God very much.. I came to the Lord when I was young, I gave my whole life to him when other girls my age were out dating and partying and having a good time! ( I'm not complaining - it was a blessing to know Jesus as a young woman )

Yet I was shut in with God and suffering........... so what was happening to me? Patience was having her perfect work! ha! ha! You want patience? Become a wallpaper hanger, friend! That will help get you there! Still I didn't have patience with many things... I didn't like people... I told the Lord could you please keep people away from me? I cannot stand them, Lord! LOL!!! Can you imagine? I was called to be a Laborer and I am telling God I cannot stand people. Oh my gosh. He should have just squashed me like a bug. Still I avoided people for many years - a total recluse other than my wallpaper jobs..

So when well meaning christians thought they would "help me out" they would say, well, if you were a member of a church, you know.........that would fix things! Or if you would just drop that vow you made not to marry anyone - you'd have a husband to take care of you! Yes, Jobs friends are alive and well even today, P.T. even today..... where am I going with this?

Job was a human being. If he came to his own defense, so what?! God obviously gave him the measure of grace to do it, did he not? If I told you some of the things I said during my own trials it would surely surprise you!

So God answers Job back, yes, but in the end what does God have Job do?

He has Job pray for his friends! Because they got it wrong! God didn't get anything wrong! Jobs friends got it wrong! Get it?

Note* reading your latest replies I notice you still do not get it, P.T. Perhaps you should try reading my responses and then answering? That would help I believe. I provided all kinds of scripture and evidence as to Gods teachings on the "perfect man" and you have conveniently ignored them all. Read up. Ignorance is not bliss. It is downright dangerous for the times we are headed into now! You need the Lord!

Read this, P.T.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

"Perfect"? No authorship is claimed or implied, including God or Job. It’s the first indication that Job is a parable.

But then the author has Job getting frustrated: "If only someone would listen to me! Look, I will sign my name to my defense. Let the Almighty answer me. Let my accuser write out the charges against me." Job 31:35

But there are no charges, leaving Job with his frustration and his unanswered question, Why?

Job is perhaps the most enigmatic book in the Bible. Some deists claim that it's the most deist book in the Bible, but I think it was written as an apologetic for revealed Judaism in answer to that very question religious leaders most often hear, Why?

Revealed religions, by that very act of revelation, are unable to consider the possibility that God must not interact; and it isn't that God can't, it's that God MUST not—again due to free will. Consider The Book of Life. If there were such a book where our names are written from the foundation of the world, then we were all either damned or saved from the beginning. What, then, would be the point or meaning of our mortal lives--for God or ourselves? Why would God go to all that trouble to create the universe, and put us through all these trials and tribulations if our choices are preordained? The Book of Life can only be a human forgery.

To make a very long story short, Job refuses the advice of friends and his wife to curse God, choosing instead to sue God, forcing God to make an appearance. His evidence is many oaths as to his (parabilistic) perfection as a human. God does make an appearance in a whirlwind, but instead of answering Job, God sarcastically asks: “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell [Me], if you have understanding."....Job 38:1 & 4

IOW, the author is having God say, “who are you, any of you, to ask that question of ME?” The author, as is anyone who’s advocating for the existence of an interactive, personal God, has no answer. But there is an obvious answer—free will, so that the choices we make are truly our own, but that necessitates God’s non-intervention. That's why.

This is clearly a human parable, which is further accentuated by the fact that not only is Job's wealth and status replaced, but he gets a new set of children, like so much chattel. Although Job doesn't get the answer he was suing for, his being wronged is apparently righted. It's tantamount to a divine admission of guilt.

God? Guilty??? What’s really going on here!

You've misinterpreted Scripture, P.T.. That is what is going on here... Let's go to the first thing you say here: that the story of Job must be a human parable because the Scriptures say he was a "perfect man"...

Do you not realize that the scriptures teach on the perfect man throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament? Yes! Let us examine a few of them now and then we will go back to Job, alright?

It is written:

Be ye perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.
- Matthew 5: 48

Jesus said that, P.T. What was Jesus speaking about? In this particular scripture Jesus is speaking in reference to loving our neighbor and also loving our enemies. Did you know we are to love our enemies? It is true.

There are times we bring correction to those who oppose the Gospel - it may even sound as a hard word at the time -no discipline is pleasant at the time, P.T. ---> but in all things the desired end result is that the person will come to the Father through Jesus Christ the Son and be saved.

For those who have gone off into the enemies camp we still love that one and must pray - even the one Paul turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh - seen in 1 Corinthinians 5: 1 -12 was for the saving of his soul in the day of Christ Jesus so in all things we must love our enemies and pray for our enemies. Paul may be perceived as having been harsh with him but truly that man who was saved from hell is now very grateful to Paul for the end result. ( he is in heaven now )

So Love, Loving thy neighbor and thy enemy is part of perfection and although sanctification is a process the Apostle Paul was quite clear that there were those who had reached perfection but he told them to go on further! Don't stop at perfection - keep going!

So let us realize that when Jesus said, Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect he wasn't making some flowery statement! He meant what he said!

So Loving our enemies, praying for our enemies is one sign we are working towards being perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.. what else is there?

It is written:

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into divers temptations. Knowing this, that the trying of faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work that you may be perfect and entire wanting nothing. - James 1: 3,4, 5

So now we have Love and Patience working us towards perfection, P.T. Oh and if you say that Job state of being perfect is impossible what shall we say then of Noah and of Abraham? Shall we deny their walk too? Or Asa whose heart was perfect before the Lord? ( 2 Chronicles 15:17) and many others too!

It is written:

These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. - Genesis 6: 9


Isn't this wonderful that God shows us the secret of Noah, of Abraham, of Job who were all counted as perfect men? Even in the New Testament? Yes! It is exciting to know that we too can walk as Abraham walked! We can walk before the Lord as Noah did and as Job did! This life is attainable to us, P.T.! Let us go further now....

It is written:

Mark the perfect man and behold the upright, for the end of that man is peace.
-Psalm 37:37

Who said that? King David, another man whose heart was perfect before the Lord! Oh Glory to God, what a relationship King David enjoyed with the Lord! Right? NOTE* How did King David accomplish this? Through a Psalm 101 life. He tells you exactly how to do it! Do what Psalm 101 says - then you can believe God for a Psalm 17 experience! What a blessing that will be for you! I pray you have it once you embark on this journey with the Lord, P.T.! I truly pray you attain that perfect heart as King David had!

Let's go back to James now.

It is written:

For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. - James 3: 2

What is James teaching us?

That if a man is able to have control over his tongue, not to offend in word, the same is a perfect man and that man will be able to control his body. The tongue is a very small member of our body, P.T. but it is also the most dangerous part of our body and it has to be put under control of the Holy Ghost! It has to be!


Look at this, P.T.! This is amazing!

It is written:

Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth.

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity, so it is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire of hell.
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed and hath been tamed of mankind.

But the tongue can no man tame, it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith we curse men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessings and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not be.

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bare olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. - James 3: 2 - 12

Now here is the good news, P.T.. When you come to Jesus Christ you can ask to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost and then He takes control He can do what you apart from God cannot do! You see? Also the more you pray in the Holy Ghost the more the Holy Ghost takes control of the tongue. Another secret to this state of perfection the Apostle Paul is speaking of... So this is key in understanding that with God all things are possible, P.T. If it were not so, Jesus would not have said, Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. You see?

So now we have three things that are needed to bring a man to this place of be ye perfect ...... Love - Love your neighbor - Love your enemies.. patience... let patience have its perfect work in you...... your tongue... submit yourself to God, resist Satan and he will flee from you... let me say this also ----> this is what it means to present your members a living sacrifice - this is your "reasonable service" - you must present your members - you need to come under a Spirit controlled life - those that are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God... let us go forward now.......

It is written,

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you - 1 Peter 5:10

I believe the Lord wants me to encourage you, P.T. not to be afraid of suffering. Avila once said that if we knew what suffering did for us we'd beg for more of it. I must agree with her and only the Father knows what she suffered at the hands of carnal people.. only the Father knows... the precious little saint she was...

Okay so our list is right now at Love, Love your neighbor, Love your enemies, let Patience have its perfect work in you, put your tongue under submission to the Holy Spirit and suffering.......also a Spirit led life and praying in the Holy Ghost - Paul said he prayed in the Holy Ghost more then them all and Paul was a perfect man yet he told the others some had reached perfection but would not include himself out of humility.. I'll put those scriptures up too ( in next response as this is only addressing your first statement on Job must be a human parable ) but hold on.......

Suffering. We have now added suffering to that list for the perfecting of the Believers. Because Suffering is the one thing the Believers do not like to believe they are called for... yet we are.. you see, suffering is what produces the fruit - it is in the fire of suffering that you grow the fastest if you won't resist it.. when the heat is on? You grow fast! What is true in the natural is true in the spirit..consider a hot climate! Tropical climate down in South America for instance... the foliage is lush and thick - the plants grow fast! Why? The heat! And at night? At night the dew falls! Oh yeah! This is where the growth is going on! Go up north to a cold wind and little sun and see how slow a plant grows! Not so in the tropical heat of South America though! Same for the spirit! The book of Acts church went "viral" when the persecution was the heaviest! Glory to God ! Oh yes! It is just what the church needs and exactly where we are headed! Suffering! That is the word for the church right now!

Great persecution is coming for the church... it is coming!

Suffering.... this was the final test of Job and it proved he was indeed a perfect man because through it all he refused to "curse God and die" as his wife suggested to him.. he was restored back double for all his trouble except for his children which God gave him 7 more sons and 3 more daughters to replace the 10 he lost.. and after all of this Job lived 140 years and he saw his sons and his sons sons even four generations ( Job 42:16 ) and so we know that Job did not serve a "benefitless God" and neither do I! Hallelujah! Thank you, Lord! I love you and you are so good to us! All the time! - Karen

Read these bible scriptures that confirm the existance of quite a few men whom God marked "perfect" and look it up in your own bible, P.T. The Word of God is true, you have provided nothing but your own brand of atheism to resist this truth and it can lead you to no other destination than the one your namesake ( Thomas Paine ) ended in and we both know that is not the will of God for your life. So read this and take the John 7:17 challenge - tell God you are willing to do his will once you see this doctrine of Christ is from Him and not a man... it is God all the way.. from cover to cover... ask Him and see for yourself. Just be willing to do Gods will once you know it... you cannot ask for more from God than that. Truly God is good. All the time, P.T.!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Is Job perfect or not?

Of course he was, P.T.! God is not a man that He should lie nor the son of man that He should repent! It is written!

But just so that you know Job, Noah, Abraham and others were not alone in being marked a perfect man? I have one more for you to wrap this first one up in evidence of the existance of the "perfect man"... P.T...

It is written:

I press toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be PERFECT, be thus minded, and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, where to WE HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. - Philippians 3: 14, 15, 16

What is Paul saying here? He is saying as many of you who are already "perfect" ----->walking perfect before the LORD, be like minded, and although you all have already "attained" this perfection do not stop there but keep on going! Get it?? This is not it, there is far more! Far, far more glory to God! I've got another one but I'll post this for you now as I don't want to keep you waiting! - Karen

And here is the other answer from Scripture you ignored, P.T. Have a look! This is from the Apostle Paul!

 

[PainefulTruth]

I have just given you scriptures from both Old Testament and New Testament that prove you are wrong. Jesus is not the only one called perfect.

So perfect people don't need Jesus' salvation? They wouldn't need to have faith in him? I expect (know) there are many Christians who would greatly disagree with that. It's just another example of a biblical contradiction. I know that Jesus would greatly disagree with his being our salvation, it being very anti-Jewish. He preached repentance, which Paul with his salvation through Jesus flesh and blood, discounted. James certainly disagreed with Paul as well.

 

[LittleNipper]

The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".

That's not the point. I'm showing that the author of the Book of Job is trying to justify belief in an interactive God in view of God's apparent irrational administration of punishment and reward. But then he fails miserably in that attempt because he has no explanation or answer for the "why"s, instead saying to just stfu.

The real sham is that there is an explanation for God's seeming irrationality (if God exists), which is that God doesn't interact and is therefore not irrational. But all the "revealed" religions have come to power selling influence with their God(s) to intervene on their behalf if they'll just join their cult and support it with money, sacrifices and blind faith.

I bring up Job's perfection because Jesus is supposed to be, for some believers, the savior of mankind, in part, because he is the only perfect man.

I have just given you scriptures from both Old Testament and New Testament that prove you are wrong. Jesus is not the only one called perfect. God called Noah a perfect man, he called Job a perfect man, Paul clearly stated that some believers had already attained perfection and I have provided the written word of God whereas you have provided nothing more than an opinion, P.T. The problem therein lies with you and not with the Word of God. The problem lies within you. This is the truth and you will have to come to terms with it because God is most certainly a personal God. Abraham was a friend of God's - how much more personal do you need it to get? I provide you with many, many scriptures - go into great detail to explain this to you and you pretend you have not been provided a shred of evidence. This is a lie. I tell you the truth. There is no more sure way to remain in eternal ignorance than to condemn the facts without examining them. To decide a matter before even listening to it - as Solomon said in proverbs, it is foolishness and will bring you shame. You have achieved both in a single moment. I am astonished that one who presented himself as seeking the truth of the matter would rejects it so boldly once it was put in front of him. I understand now why you would not answer last night when I posted the answers for you. You had no rebuttal and could not give an answer. You still can't. That is where we are at right now. You don't have an answer to refute the Word of God!

Only God is good. And Jesus is the one who points that out. Believers are perfected in Christ Jesus and not without a Savior.

 

[PainefulTruth]

Believers are perfected in Christ Jesus and not without a Savior.

Huh?

 

[LittleNipper]

Believers are perfected in Christ Jesus and not without a Savior.

Huh?

Thought so! Even Jews need Jesus Christ the Messiah. Without him they too are lost.

 

[JoeB131]

[

God is not absolved of His responsibility because He took responsibility for making man by dying on the cross for our sins.

problem with that. Dying on the cross for an Omnipotent being who is going to ressurect himself (or part of himself, because I guess when part of him was being Mortal Jesus, the rest of him was still busy running the Universe) isn't that big of a sacrifice. It isn't like he REALLY died forever and ever. He was dead for three days.

[
God could have prevented sin by taking away free will and then you would have all been like little robots doing only what your programming said.

I don't have a problem with "Free Will". I have a problem with burning people for all eternity when they make the wrong choices. Especially when it isn't all that clear what the "right" choices are. Is there still some guy burning in Hell for eating meat during Lent?

[
You can't really compare the Nazis at Nuremburg to God. It is apples and oranges. Man was warned that if he ate of the tree that he would die spiritually. If you ask what we deserve or don't deserve, we don't deserve heaven because Adam was the prototype and the copies like you and me couldn't do any better and we're all prone to evil so we're not deserving of anything even though God gives us mercy and kindness and a second chance.

Honestly, you make God sound like he's a villian from a Batman Comic. I'm going to give you these impossible choices, and then punish you horribly if you pick wrong... unless you kiss my ass every day with prayer.

The Bible God is narcissitic, sadist, egomaniac, and could only be the product of human imagination.

 

[PainefulTruth]

Believers are perfected in Christ Jesus and not without a Savior.

Huh?

Thought so! Even Jews need Jesus Christ the Messiah. Without him they too are lost.

s

Huhx100 ?

 

[Chuckt]

God is not absolved of His responsibility because He took responsibility for making man by dying on the cross for our sins.

problem with that. Dying on the cross for an Omnipotent being who is going to ressurect himself (or part of himself, because I guess when part of him was being Mortal Jesus, the rest of him was still busy running the Universe) isn't that big of a sacrifice. It isn't like he REALLY died forever and ever. He was dead for three days.

If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity. You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

Baptism represents death so what is the cup that Jesus was baptized with?

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

God punished Jesus for every sin you commit.

You should do more research on this cup and the wrath of God that Jesus experienced because the punishment of just three days isn't what you think and there is more punishment to scourging and crucifixion than you know. The crown of thorns had something like one inch thorns pressed into his head, his bones went out of joint when they dropped the cross into the hole to make it upright, you have to press up with your body to breathe when his feet were already nailed to a cross, and some crucifixions were close enough to the ground that wild animals came to eat the toes of people on the cross. The shame of being naked on a cross without any anesthesia with your skin ripped off and your bowels exposed from the scourging. Did you ever have a cut or a skin allergy? Skin is the most sensitive thing on your body and it hurts.