Zone1 Jesus Christ: The MYTH

[Hafar1014]

the first four are scientifically explainable.

Jesus is a myth.

Science cant explain how it all started

 

[JoeB131]

Science cant explain how it all started

Science can't explain that YET.

The problem with the "God of the Gaps" thinking is that the gaps keep getting filled in.

 

[Hafar1014]

Science can't explain that YET.

The problem with the "God of the Gaps" thinking is that the gaps keep getting filled in.

It never will the question cant be measured scientifically

 

[Meriweather]

If Jesus was a Jew, why are there Catholics?

Jews: God choosing a people to be set apart.
Catholics: God choosing a people to be open and welcoming to all.

 

[Meriweather]

Except that the history can be substantiated by multiple sources and doesn't contain fantastical accounts like Talking Snakes and Giants.

Let's take another "JC" who lived a little earlier than Jesus. Julius Caesar.

We know what day he was born - 12 July 100 BCE (the month was renamed for him)
We know what day he died - 15 March 44 BCE
We have his own writings that have been passed down to us to this day.
We have contemporary accounts by people who lived at the same time he did.
We have monuments he built, coins struck with his image on them, and statues made of him.
We can see the direct effect of his rule (The rise of the Julio-Claudian dynasty that would rule Rome for the following 100 years.)
The histories written about him are amazingly consistent.

For Jesus, we have none of that.

Yet today, how many people follow the ways or give a second thought to Julius Caesar or have forums where he is discussed daily?

 

[Hafar1014]

Jews: God choosing a people to be set apart.
Catholics: God choosing a people to be open and welcoming to all.

Jews were chosen to unite the human race under one god and set of commandments. Thats an obligation.
Catholics created a religion that uses the threat of hell to force obedience and a system that enabled gay priests to sexually moleste children.

 

[Meriweather]

Artificial Intelligence to prove an artificial God?

Are you arguing intelligence is artificial? If so, is your picture there to represent it?

 

[Meriweather]

Jews were chosen to unite the human race under one god and set of commandments. Thats an obligation.
Catholics created a religion that uses the threat of hell to force obedience and a system that enabled gay priests to sexually moleste children.

Hafar, I am quite sure you are aware of those who use a mocking caricature that fit the worse of the Jewish population. Is that a way of God? Should the worst of Jewish behavior mark and label all Jews? It seems your intent is now to encourage everyone today to go out and mock and caricature all of God's creation and His work, which is shameful.

Catholics never used the threat of hell of force obedience. Obedience is a response to the love of God--or do you, a Jew, no longer believe that? And, down through the ages, did families have a system whereby some in their family to sexually molest children? I know you don't believe we live in a fallen world, and therefore you must believe molesting children and threatening others are what God wanted all along? Catholics hold no such belief, and such acts, when they crop up, are weeded out, just like in allegory of God's vineyard, where the grapes turned stinky, and they, too, were weeded out. Catholics live by the Word of God.

 

[Hafar1014]

Hafar, I am quite sure you are aware of those who use a mocking caricature that fit the worse of the Jewish population. Is that a way of God? Should the worst of Jewish behavior mark and label all Jews? It seems your intent is now to encourage everyone today to go out and mock and caricature all of God's creation and His work, which is shameful.

Catholics never used the threat of hell of force obedience. Obedience is a response to the love of God--or do you, a Jew, no longer believe that? And, down through the ages, did families have a system whereby some in their family to sexually molest children? I know you don't believe we live in a fallen world, and therefore you must believe molesting children and threatening others are what God wanted all along? Catholics hold no such belief, and such acts, when they crop up, are weeded out, just like in allegory of God's vineyard, where the grapes turned stinky, and they, too, were weeded out. Catholics live by the Word of God.

The only reason hell was created was to force obedience. Believe in Jesus or suffer in hell. Thats a threat.
The catholic church as a policy protected child abusing priests. So much for morals

 

[ding]

First, both of these guys are writing nearly a century after the facts.

There's substantial evidence that the passage about Jesus in Tacitus was a later interpolation by Christian Scribes.


The Pliny passage is more interesting because he asks the Emperor Trajan what he should do with Christians caught in his province. Now, keep in mind, this was supposedly the whacky cult that burned down Rome during Nero's reign.

But Trajan answers back, if they aren't causing trouble, leave them alone.

That would seem to indicate that the earlier accounts are probably obscure, and this wasn't a very prominent cult by the Second Century.



There are two passages about Jesus in Josephus, one of which is most certainly a forgery. But again, Josephus is writing AFTER the fact.

What you don't have is first hand witness accounts. The Gospels are all second-hand accounts, and Paul was a later convert.

What we don't have are first hand accounts by people who knew Jesus personally.

On top of that, there are inconsistencies within the Gospels themselves. Even though both Matthew and Luke heavily crib from Mark, they contradict each other about the year Jesus was born. (By about a 10-year gap)

Conversely, we really don't know what year Jesus was crucified, only that it happened sometime during the governorship of Pontius Pilate. Which means anywhere between 26 CE and 36 CE.

Now, here's where it gets tricky. Pilate's character in the Bible contradicts nearly everything we know about the guy from other sources. In the Bible, he's trying very hard not to crucify Jesus. This contradicts the historical account that shows he was a pretty tone-deaf governor, eventually being recalled by Tiberius for having the place nearly in revolt because of his policies.

Seriously, when you are so ruthless that Tiberius had to say, "Hey, man, that's a bit much", that says a lot.

(It does make sense in the context that the Gospels were written when the Christians were a separate sect from the Jews, and were trying to appeal to a Roman audience while demonizing the Jews)

The historical evidence shows:

1. The first Christians who witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles.
2. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
3. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
4. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy.
5. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
6. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
7. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
8. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
9. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
10. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
11. The behaviors of the Apostles before and after the resurrection of Christ.

And then there is the change in the behavior of the apostles. After the crucifixion they are despondent, dejected, depressed, hiding. They've fled. Peter denied Jesus three times. Our leader has been put to death in the most degrading possible way. And they thought, "That's it! It's over!" But then history clearly shows that after Easter these same people that were once cowardly are now boldly proclaiming that Jesus is resurrected. In Acts 2, just a few weeks after the resurrection, says "Then Peter stood up, he raised his voice and addressed the crowd and said, 'God has raised this Jesus to life and we are all witnesses to this fact.'" We saw it. We know it's true.

 

[Hafar1014]

The historical evidence shows:

1. The first Christians who witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles.
2. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
3. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
4. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy.
5. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
6. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
7. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
8. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
9. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
10. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
11. The behaviors of the Apostles before and after the resurrection of Christ.

And then there is the change in the behavior of the apostles. After the crucifixion they are despondent, dejected, depressed, hiding. They've fled. Peter denied Jesus three times. Our leader has been put to death in the most degrading possible way. And they thought, "That's it! It's over!" But then history clearly shows that after Easter these same people that were once cowardly are now boldly proclaiming that Jesus is resurrected. In Acts 2, just a few weeks after the resurrection, says "Then Peter stood up, he raised his voice and addressed the crowd and said, 'God has raised this Jesus to life and we are all witnesses to this fact.'" We saw it. We know it's true.

There were opposing accounts called the Gnostics and Christians killed all of them.
Role of Jesus in Gnosticism

• Messenger of Knowledge: Jesus was seen as a divine redeemer sent by the supreme, true God to bring gnosis to humanity.
• Docetism: Many Gnostics believed Jesus did not have a real physical body because matter is evil, but only appeared to be human.
• Not a Redeemer of Sin: Jesus did not die for sins, but came to wake humanity from the illusion of the material world.
  Insight for Living
  Not god

 

[ding]

the first four are scientifically explainable.

Jesus is a myth.

It is science which tells us that the universe was created in an unnatural way. If the universe had been created in a natural way it would only be filled with radiation.

Feel free to explain from a scientific standpoint how the structure of matter isn't the only possible configuration that could produce a universe capable of producing intelligence.

Feel free to explain from a scientific standpoint how it was proven that life formed from inanimate matter?

Feel free to explain from a scientific standpoint how intelligence arising wasn't predestined by the laws of nature.

Until you do, you are the pigeon on the chessboard.

 

[ding]

There were opposing accounts called the Gnostics and Christians killed all of them.
Role of Jesus in Gnosticism

• Messenger of Knowledge: Jesus was seen as a divine redeemer sent by the supreme, true God to bring gnosis to humanity.
• Docetism: Many Gnostics believed Jesus did not have a real physical body because matter is evil, but only appeared to be human.
• Not a Redeemer of Sin: Jesus did not die for sins, but came to wake humanity from the illusion of the material world.
  Insight for Living
  Not god

Jews wrote about Jesus in their texts.

 

[Hafar1014]

Jews wrote about Jesus in their texts.

Where

 

[ding]

Where

And they wrote about how his disciples continued to heal others.

 

[Meriweather]

The only reason hell was created was to force obedience. Believe in Jesus or suffer in hell. Thats a threat.
The catholic church as a policy protected child abusing priests. So much for morals

Wrong on both accounts. The above is what you want to believe. We will let it go at that, following Mark Twain's adage:

The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie. ​

I was a journalist at the time the story broke about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. The horrifying, underlying story of sexual abuse of children in all of society was being deliberately buried. That would have meant the loss of advertising dollars, while exposing a small piece of it all within the Catholic Church meant increase of advertising dollars. Take a look at the occurrences of child molestation today. What do you find? Oh, right. You don't care about all of that. It doesn't fit your own aim to throw mud and slander the Catholic Church.

As I understand it, in Judaism lying is a serious sin, an abomination that sows discord. Some even consider it a form of murder.

 

[ding]

The only reason hell was created was to force obedience. Believe in Jesus or suffer in hell. Thats a threat.

The first instance of the concept of hell began in Judaism which was at least a hundred years before Christianity. The Christian concept is exactly the same as the Jewish concept. So your statement means the Jews created hell to force obedience because they were the ones who created hell.

 

[Hafar1014]

The first instance of the concept of hell began in Judaism which was at least a hundred years before Christianity. The Christian concept is exactly the same as the Jewish concept. So your statement means the Jews created hell to force obedience because they were the ones who created hell.

Jews do not have hell we have Sheol the afterlife. We do not have a devil.

 

[ding]

Jews do not have hell we have Sheol the afterlife. We do not have a devil.

The first instance of the concept of hell began in Judaism which was at least a hundred years before Christianity. The Christian concept is exactly the same as the Jewish concept. So your statement means the Jews created hell to force obedience because they were the ones who created hell.

Google it.

 

[Hafar1014]

The first instance of the concept of hell began in Judaism which was at least a hundred years before Christianity. The Christian concept is exactly the same as the Jewish concept. So your statement means the Jews created hell to force obedience because they were the ones who created hell.

Google it.

Google'? Loll. I was raised as Jew my Grand father an orthodox Rabbi my Uncle a world famous cantor and your going to tell me what Jews believe. Your trapped in the reality of your false beliefs. The entire message in Genesis is man choses by free will ro believe with no threat. Christianity was violent and oppressive in its beginnings. Just as Mormons were extremely violent, allowed child marriage and polygamy. Dont lecture me with your past of immoral values