i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[AlexanderPK]

Again who is "you"? Russians are not attacking US, you are killing Ukrainians and your own people in this bloody invasion (50,000 killed already)

The other mofo quoted 100 000, you 50 000, get the right ass to dig these figures from, stop embarrassing yourself. We're killing Banderiets, i.e. your puppets, i.e. the universal evil which is the collective West with the US at the helm. There's nothing bloody about that, it's exterminating of rats. It's somewhat noble, I'd say.

 

[AntonToo]

The other mofo quoted 100 000, you 50 000, get the right ass to dig these figures from, stop embarrassing yourself.

In true Russian fashion Ministry of Defense and Putin Vision media will not inform your citizens of the true costs of this invasion.

Leaked documents seem to show 48,759 is what Russian Treasury itself states in it's internal budgetting are PAYOUTS to the families of killed Russian soldiers, based on information from Ministry of Defense dated 08/24/22. Which is in line with what UK intelligence reports.



It's a conservative number given how many dead Russian soldiers are counted as missing in action. And this number obviously doesn't include the wounded.

 

[AntonToo]

We're killing Banderiets, i.e. your puppets, i.e. the universal evil which is the collective West with the US at the helm. There's nothing bloody about that, it's exterminating of rats. It's somewhat noble, I'd say.

....the level of stupidity and naivete it takes to write something like this is astounding.

You are killing people, Ukranians.

You are killing Ukranian sodiers drafted by their government to defend their land against invaders and yes you are killing a lot of Ukranian civilians in the process, intentional or not. It takes grand self-delusions to convince yourself that you know all these people, including children, to have some specific, uniform ideology.

It's just something Russians like you tell yourself to be able to sleep at night, while your deplorable government is conducting these atrocities.

 

[AlexanderPK]

In true Russian fashion Ministry of Defense and Putin Vision media will not inform your citizens of the true costs of this invasion.

Leaked documents seem to show 48,759 is what Russian Treasury itself states in it's internal budgetting are PAYOUTS to the families of killed Russian soldiers, based on information from Ministry of Defense dated 08/24/22. Which is in line with what UK intelligence reports.



It's a conservative number given how many dead Russian soldiers are counted as missing in action. And this number obviously doesn't include the wounded.

A Ukrainian born American is your reliable source of information? There's a branch of the AFU specialising in concocting these kind of leaked documents. The Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island, Butcha and bullshit like that, did you hear about those? That's what these bastards fabricate day and night. There's gonna be some Butcha II soon I bet, if not already. Hundreds of civilians buried alive, dozens of babushkas raped and murdered, thousands of toilets and washing machines stolen and carried away. By the way, there can't be typos in official documents like that. Yours got at least one: 06.05.20212 №1100.

 

[BackAgain]

No that is the point. The only invasion was that of PRVN forces invading the RVN against international law. Of course, a case could be made that the PRVN also invaded Cambodia and Laos when it built bases there and routed war material through both countries on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in violation of international law on neutrality.

Nope. Entirely beside the point.

This isn’t a dissertation on your miscomprehension of history and Vietnam.

 

[AlexanderPK]

....the level of stupidity and naivete it takes to write something like this is astounding.

You are killing people, Ukranians.

You are killing Ukranian sodiers drafted by their government to defend their land against invaders and yes you are killing a lot of Ukranian civilians in the process, intentional or not. It takes grand self-delusions to convince yourself that you know all these people, including children, to have some specific, uniform ideology.

It's just something Russians like you tell yourself to be able to sleep at night, while your deplorable government is conducting these atrocities.

The problem with you, duplicitous pseudo-righteous mother-fuckers is that you won't notice the other blood that started this whole thing.

 

[AntonToo]

A Ukrainian born American is your reliable source of information? There's a branch of the AFU specialising in concocting these kind of leaked documents. The Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island, Butcha and bullshit like that, did you hear about those? That's what these bastards fabricate day and night. There's gonna be some Butcha II soon I bet, if not already. Hundreds of civilians buried alive, dozens of babushkas raped and murdered, thousands of toilets and washing machines stolen and carried away. By the way, there can't be typos in official documents like that. Yours got at least one: 06.05.20212 №1100.

Pretty ironic that a Kremlin propaganda dupe like you is going to complain about sourcing.

As I've said, document's numbers are consistent with UK intelligence and on the ground reporting. It does seem credible.


You don't want to accept these numbers? Ok fine, propose what you consider to be credible numbers.

 

[AlexanderPK]

Pretty ironic that a Kremlin propaganda dupe like you is going to complain about sourcing.

As I've said, document's numbers are consistent with UK intelligence and on the ground reporting. It does seem credible.


You don't want to accept these numbers? Ok fine, propose what you consider to be credible numbers.

Divide them by 10. That'll be the ballpark.

 

[AlexanderPK]

Pretty ironic that a Kremlin propaganda dupe like you is going to complain about sourcing.

As I've said, document's numbers are consistent with UK intelligence and on the ground reporting. It does seem credible.


You don't want to accept these numbers? Ok fine, propose what you consider to be credible numbers.

UK intelligence? There was a series of what we call anecdotes but you for some reason call them funny stories or something, that always had a line in them saying "British scientists found out..." Where did the UK intelligence find those figures? The Ukrainian Special Operations Forces told it so.

 

[AntonToo]

UK intelligence? There was a series of what we call anecdotes but you for some reason call them funny stories or something, that always had a line in them saying "British scientists found out..." Where did the UK intelligence find those figures? The Ukrainian Special Operations Forces told it so.

You didn't actually answer what you consider to be credible numbers and why you think it's ok for Russian government to keep secret Russian death toll in Ukraine from it's citizens.

 

[AntonToo]

Divide them by 10. That'll be the ballpark.

Based ON WHAT? How did you arrive at this factor? Your fantasies?

 

[para bellum]

Divide them by 10. That'll be the ballpark.

5K might account for the L/DRPR KIA's alone. The DPR reported 3,069 killed and 13,018 wounded as of September 15.

The 50K estimate is low based on the confirmed losses of infantry fighting vehicles, APC's, and tanks. There are a lot of dead Russians that will never be identified because there isn't enough left of them to make an ID.

 

[AntonToo]

5K might account for the L/DRPR KIA's alone. The DPR reported 3,069 killed and 13,018 wounded as of September 15.

The 50K estimate is low based on the confirmed losses of infantry fighting vehicles, APC's, and tanks. There are a lot of dead Russians that will never be identified because there isn't enough left of them to make an ID.

LNR/DPR units are not really considered by Russians part of the Russian army or Russian casualties.

 

[AlexanderPK]

Based ON WHAT? How did you arrive at this factor? Your fantasies?

There's a rule: take the Hohols' fantasies and divide them by ten. That'll give your figure.

 

[AntonToo]

There's a rule: take the Hohols' fantasies and divide them by ten. That'll give your figure.

It's a stupid, completely arbitrary rule, but then again most of what you post is.

You have no fucking clue, which is exactly what Kremlin propaganda machine counts on to fill you up with total bs.

 

[ESay]

Poland is with you, and they are in a full blown acquisition mode. Poland will have the most potent military in Europe in the not-very-distant future.

Yes, Poland is a natural ally in this case. But I meant a somewhat different thing. Let's consider a 'worse case' scenario. The US decides to leave the European continent as much as possible and concentrate on other parts of the world.

The EU and NATO are divided on several parts with Germany and France closing a free trade area for Eastern Europe and excluding it from the common budget.

Will the Polish-led alliance be self-sufficient and sustainable without the 'Western' technologies, finances, industry and so on? Actually, there are more questions about that than answers.

 

[AlexanderPK]

It's a stupid, completely arbitrary rule, but then again most of what you post is.

You have no fucking clue, which is exactly what Kremlin propaganda machine counts on to fill you up with total bs.

There you go again. Your fucking clues don't open anything. They are just that same propaganda you accuse me of only with names reversed that feeds you total bs you have the hubris to call the truth.

 

[para bellum]

Yes, Poland is a natural ally in this case. But I meant a somewhat different thing. Let's consider a 'worse case' scenario. The US decides to leave the European continent as much as possible and concentrate on other parts of the world.

The EU and NATO are divided on several parts with Germany and France closing a free trade area for Eastern Europe and excluding it from the common budget.

Will the Polish-led alliance be self-sufficient and sustainable without the 'Western' technologies, finances, industry and so on? Actually, there are more questions about that than answers.

I think that whatever the EU does on the economic front, NATO will always include Poland and Romania and the Balts. Poland will be the military powerhouse, and it is all NATO (or NATO pattern) kit. Ukraine is already moving that direction as far as becoming NATO compliant.

So some time in the future, the US has abandoned Europe as much as possible, there remains a revitalized NATO that includes Ukraine. If not, then Ukraine has the regional alliance with Poland and the Balts and Romania and Moldova, and everyone but Moldova is armed to the teeth.

And really, NATO does not want another security alliance in Europe, especially when there would be member states that are also NATO member states. They would much rather have Ukraine in NATO, where they would have more influence over Ukraine.

Security-wise, Ukraine is safe from another invasion from the east. Economy-wise, is it safe from Germany?

A rebuilt Ukraine, with all the industry and energy and raw materials (and cheap labor) is a direct industrial competitor to Germany. How that plays out is anyone's guess, but I can certainly imagine German companies squalling and bawling about having to compete with Ukrainian steel mills and heavy industry. I think about Turkey, and it seems like full EU membership on an equal footing is probably a heavier lift for Ukraine than joining NATO...

 

[AntonToo]

They are just that same propaganda you accuse me of

Nope, my numbers are not based on a ridiculous, stupid formula of simply taking a number you don't happen to like and arbitrary dividing it by 10.

You have no fucking clue how many Russians died in Ukraine, and you don't care that your shitty government (that knows exactly how many payouts it has to make for the dead soldiers) is making sure you don't know.

Each and every American that died in action is listed here in US, because we honor our soldiers and respect their sacrifice. All your government respects is your Dear Leader.

 

[para bellum]

LNR/DPR units are not really considered by Russians part of the Russian army or Russian casualties.

Neither are the Wagners, or the Chechens, or the Rosvguardia, or the other "volunteer battalions" that are doing the actual fighting and dying for Putin's Imperial ambitions.

So as far as that goes, AlexanderPK might have an argument that "Russian" casualties are only ~5K, but the casualties among the actual fighters on the Russian side overall really is 10x that number...