i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[toomuchtime_]

So if Putin makes a threat against a NATO member, what do think NATO will do?

It's not about making threats asshole, but if he were to attack a NATO member, Russia would be humiliated even worse than it is now in Ukraine.

 

[georgephillip]

Maybe in your imagination. These guarantees were given to Ukraine as a sovereign state. These guarantees still stands.

When Ukraine became a US proxy in pursuit of regime change in Russia, it became a hostile threat and all guarantees vanished.

 

[gipper]

It's not about making threats asshole, but if he were to attack a NATO member, Russia would be humiliated even worse than it is now in Ukraine.

You’re the one that mentioned threats by Putin. Did you forget?

 

[toomuchtime_]

When Ukraine became a US proxy in pursuit of regime change in Russia, it became a hostile threat and all guarantees vanished.

Why do you post such rubbish when you know it is not true? Are you trying to sound stupid or trying to persuade the world that nothing Russia says can be trusted? If so you are successful on both counts. The guarantees in the Budapest Memorandum were made in exchange for persuading Ukraine give its nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at that time, to Russia in exchange for guarantees of sovereignty. There were no caveats about NATO or the EU or about any internal strife within Ukraine. If the US had not foolishly persuaded Ukraine to trust Russia, Ukraine would have kept its nuclear missiles and would have needed no help in deterring Russian aggression. The whole world would have been better if Ukraine had kept its nuclear missiles, so this is an instance of US meddling that led to a bad result.

 

[georgephillip]

So once again you find it impossible to justify Putin's efforts to expand the Russian empire westward and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US has done.

I can't justify something that isn't happening.
Putin is defending his western border against a hostile military alliance just as he he promised he would over the past twenty years. As long as the US continues to press for regime change in Moscow (as it's been doing since 1949), Russia will continue to defend its homeland.

United States Interventions

 

[georgephillip]

The statist loving warmonger knows nothing about this and doesn’t want to know.

They think they're the "good guys."

United States war crimes - Wikipedia

 

[toomuchtime_]

I can't justify something that isn't happening.
Putin is defending his western border against a hostile military alliance just as he he promised he would over the past twenty years. As long as the US continues to press for regime change in Moscow (as it's been doing since 1949), Russia will continue to defend its homeland.

United States Interventions

You know very well none of that is true and you know no one else thinks it's true, so the fact that you continue to post such nonsense can lead to only to the conclusion that you have no real interest in what is going on in Ukraine.

 

[ESay]

When Ukraine became a US proxy in pursuit of regime change in Russia, it became a hostile threat and all guarantees vanished.

Guarantees from Russia you mean? They meant nothing in any case. If you weren't that ignorant and read some memories of Russian politicians (including Yeltsin, btw), you would know that Russian elite never really considered Ukraine as a separate entity.

That is not about what Russia or the likes of you think. Anti-Russian military union is an inevitable thing in this part of the world. Read some ******* history. Read about Russia-Polish wars. That all came along long before NATO or even the US had come to existence.

You along with other pro-Russian American loons operate in 50 years time frame. History of Europe didn't start with creation of NATO, you clueless ****.

 

[gipper]

So once again you find it impossible to justify Putin's efforts to expand the Russian empire westward and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US has done.

Try to learn something today. Start with the following…

Of course, NATO says that it is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China

 

[gipper]

Guarantees from Russia you mean? They meant nothing in any case. If you weren't that ignorant and read some memories of Russian politicians (including Yeltsin, btw), you would know that Russian elite never really considered Ukraine as a separate entity.

That is not about what Russia or the likes of you think. Anti-Russian military union is an inevitable thing in this part of the world. Read some ******* history. Read about Russia-Polish wars. That all came along long before NATO or even the US had come to existence.

You along with other pro-Russian American loons operate in 50 years time frame. History of Europe didn't start with creation of NATO, you clueless ****.

Yet you think the USSR still lives.

 

[gipper]

So once again you find it impossible to justify Putin's efforts to expand the Russian empire westward and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US has done.

Learn please. I hate ignorance on purpose…
The mainstream media do not present the war as it is, but as they would like it to be. This is pure wishful thinking. The apparent public support for the Ukrainian authorities, despite huge losses (some mention 70,000-80,000 fatalities), is achieved by banning the opposition, a ruthless hunt for officials who disagree with the government line, and “mirror” propaganda that attributes to the Russians the same failures as the Ukrainians. All this with the conscious support of the West.
Our latest interview with Jacques Baud | MR Online

 

[ESay]

Yet you think the USSR still lives.

No, I think you are clueless and your ignorance is so deep that you are a waste of time.

 

[gipper]

No, I think you are clueless and your ignorance is so deep that you are a waste of time.

Wow. Very touchy this morning Uke.

 

[ESay]

Wow. Very touchy this morning Uke.

Why? Just stating a fact.

 

[georgephillip]

There is no evidence Ukranians would not rise up against Yankovych's gov without Americans. It's just a bs Russian talking point.

There's amble evidence of US meddling in the internal affairs of another sovereign state:

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

"It was a grotesque distortion to portray the events in Ukraine as a purely indigenous, popular uprising.

"The Nuland‐Pyatt telephone conversation and other actions confirm that the United States was considerably more than a passive observer to the turbulence.

"Instead, U.S. officials were blatantly meddling in Ukraine.

"Such conduct was utterly improper.

"The United States had no right to try to orchestrate political outcomes in another country—especially one on the border of another great power.

"It is no wonder that Russia reacted badly to the unconstitutional ouster of an elected, pro‐Russian government—an ouster that occurred not only with Washington’s blessing, but apparently with its assistance."

 

[AntonToo]

There's amble evidence of US meddling in the internal affairs of another sovereign state:

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

"It was a grotesque distortion to portray the events in Ukraine as a purely indigenous, popular uprising.

"The Nuland‐Pyatt telephone conversation and other actions confirm that the United States was considerably more than a passive observer to the turbulence.

"Instead, U.S. officials were blatantly meddling in Ukraine.

"Such conduct was utterly improper.

"The United States had no right to try to orchestrate political outcomes in another country—especially one on the border of another great power.

"It is no wonder that Russia reacted badly to the unconstitutional ouster of an elected, pro‐Russian government—an ouster that occurred not only with Washington’s blessing, but apparently with its assistance."

Yep, we we support pro-democratic movements in many countries. We told them that we will recognize their newly government and not halt aid. What we DIDN'T do is fight their battle for them, they did that and they are doing it today against a bloody Russian invasion.

Russia goes FAR BEYOND what we do, esp in former USSR states like Ukraine and Belarus. They prop up pro-Russia parties and routinely bribe and subvert officials there to try to maintain their sphere of influence against pro-western popular sentiment.

Russia invading and annexing Ukrainian land is not some sort of counter "meddling", thats straight up fascist take over in it's own category.

 

[georgephillip]

As always, you are full of shit. Yanukovych tried to outlaw protests and when that failed he sent special police squads out to break up the protests by force. The police killed 118 protesters and in the process 13 cops were killed. It was only after that event that the protesters came armed. The overwhelming majority of the public and the parliament favored signing the agreement with the EU and Yanukovych ignored them and tried to prevent the people from protesting.

Why did he flee? Because he called on Russia to invade Ukraine and restore him to power.

Why don't you provide some evidence for your claims regarding which side fired the first shots?

A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?

"According to a recently published BBC investigation, some Maidan protestors were armed, and they in fact started shooting at the police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street"

Maidan protestors were shot at from buildings controlled by protestors:

The Maidan massacre in Ukraine: revelations from trials and investigations | MR Online

"My study analyzed several hundred hours of video recordings of the Maidan massacre trial, which is streamed on YouTube.

"Videos presented at the trial confirmed my previous study findings, which showed that specific times of shooting of the absolute majority of the protesters did not coincide with times of shooting by the Berkut and the directions of their shooting.

"This visual evidence alone shows that the Berkut did not massacre at least the absolute majority of killed and wounded Maidan protesters.

"Synchronized and time-stamped videos confirmed that at least three protesters were killed before the special Berkut police unit, which is charged with their massacre, was even deployed in the Maidan."

 

[georgephillip]

NATO should exist as a guarantor of security in Europe. If we are talking about external threat, then in the 20th century it was the USSR, now it is Russia.

How many times did Russia invade Europe in the 20th century?
How many times was Russia invaded by Europeans in the 20th century?
How many time did Russia invade the US in the 20th century?

 

[ESay]

How many times did Russia invade Europe in the 20th century?

Ukraine (newly former UNR and Ukrainian State) in 1918-1919.
Poland, twice (1920, 1939)
The Baltics 1939
Finland 1939
Hungary (suppression of Hungarian revolution in 1956)
Czechoslovakia (suppression of the Prague Spring in 1968).

How many times was Russia invaded by Europeans in the 20th century?

The Russian civil war and WWII.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Try to learn something today. Start with the following…

Of course, NATO says that it is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China

There you go again trying to change the subject from Russia's horrific actions to imagined US actions.