I've noticed that people who focus on God's love the most are the most unloving people

[Meriweather]

Ah. So, we can assume that Moslems, Hindus, etc., are all on the highway to heaven. No requirement for belief in Christianity, no commitment to Christian theology just a smile and a “I want in”.

I’m going to heaven so why give a hoot about Christianity?

Jesus commanded the Church to teach his way of Salvation/Redemption. We are not to judge others, that judgement belongs to God, whom we regard as loving and merciful.

The reason I (and many others) care about Christianity is for the help, guidance, and blessings it provides to our present life here on earth.

So, if someone were to say to me, I want salvation and redemption to come to my life, what can I do? I would direct or teach them about Christianity.

If that person were to say to me, "But I want to be Hindu....now what?" I would reply that I follow Christ and he said his is the guaranteed way to salvation and redemption. I do not have Jesus' guarantee that Hinduism is also a way of salvation/redemption, other than the assurance everyone is in the hands of a loving and merciful God.

 

[rightnow909]

I've heard protesters say

I'm going to Heaven as soon as I die

then they proceed to call someone every vile name in the book, some poster he has a disagreement with... insulting the person right and left..

so yeh...

right

They throw out Purgatory, a believe that has been in the Church over 2000+ years... no, actually longer, because they themselves do not WANT to believe in it...

so yeh... I wish it worked that way: that not believing in something makes it disappear.. Wouldn't that be nice when tax time comes around? I don't want to pay taxes, so I just wont... wonder how that works out...?

 

[Hollie]

Exactly. A hypothesis, or--as I am more apt to term this one--a supposition. Note I did not say 'God' or 'Christian God'. I stopped with Intelligence. The reason I did the next question on our genealogy chart becomes, Is intelligence a Being or merely one aspect of any being? In other words, at this point while God definitely has intelligence, we cannot claim Intelligence is God. For example, people have intelligence. Doesn't make them God.

Not exactly. A hypothesis carries with it some obvious requirements.

“A hypothesis (plural: hypotheses), in a scientific context, is a testable statement about the relationship between two or more variables or a proposed explanation for some observed phenomenon.”

Terms such as “testable statement” and “observed phenomenon” used in the context of a scientific, not philosophical hypothesis, are implicit in a hypothesis. We seek natural (discoverable), explanations because supernatural explanations are outside the discoverable world, from an epistemological (method and knowledge) perspective.

Suppose your hypothesis is that one god caused the universe. It competes not only with the hypothesis that no gods caused the universe, but with the hypotheses that 2 gods, 3 gods, ... did. Eventually, there is an infinite number of gods invoked. This can be repeated for any hypothesis quite easily.

 

[Hollie]

Jesus commanded the Church to teach his way of Salvation/Redemption. We are not to judge others, that judgement belongs to God, whom we regard as loving and merciful.

The reason I (and many others) care about Christianity is for the help, guidance, and blessings it provides to our present life here on earth.

So, if someone were to say to me, I want salvation and redemption to come to my life, what can I do? I would direct or teach them about Christianity.

If that person were to say to me, "But I want to be Hindu....now what?" I would reply that I follow Christ and he said his is the guaranteed way to salvation and redemption. I do not have Jesus' guarantee that Hinduism is also a way of salvation/redemption, other than the assurance everyone is in the hands of a loving and merciful God.

I have no reason to accept that Jesus commanded anything.

The authors of the Bible may have written that but I have no reason to unquestioningly accept what unknown authors who never met Jesus claimed he said.

 

[Meriweather]

Suppose your hypothesis is that one god causes the universe.

But that was not my supposition--or even the hypothesis.

My hypothesis (yes a valid one) is the cosmos/life in the cosmos came from matter or from intelligence. That is something that can be tested by having matter produce life. In fact, I believe such experiments have been tried for some time. If it can be shown that matter alone can produce intelligent life, wouldn't you consider that a valid experiment/test?

 

[Meriweather]

I have no reason to accept that Jesus commanded anything.

If you are not a Christian, you do not have to accept anything in the New Testament. Why would you? Certainly those of other faiths such as Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism do not give it a second thought.

 

[Meriweather]

The authors of the Bible may have written that but I have no reason to unquestioningly accept what unknown authors who never met Jesus claimed he said.

Then don't accept it.

Most of us who do accept it did so after following through on a lot of questions.

The only decision you need to make is whether you want to search for answers to you questions or are you quite content with not accepting it to begin with.

 

[buttercup]

I've heard protesters say

I'm going to Heaven as soon as I die

then they proceed to call someone every vile name in the book, some poster he has a disagreement with... insulting the person right and left..

so yeh...

right

They throw out Purgatory, a believe that has been in the Church over 2000+ years... no, actually longer, because they themselves do not WANT to believe in it...

so yeh... I wish it worked that way: that not believing in something makes it disappear.. Wouldn't that be nice when tax time comes around? I don't want to pay taxes, so I just wont... wonder how that works out...?

There are different levels of spiritual maturity. It's possible that someone is saved, but very spiritually immature. But there are also people who claim to be Christian, but never actually went through spiritual birth… In other words they never got saved. Those are likely the people you're talking about, who say they're going to heaven but then turn around and call people vile names and act just as others in the world act.

Purgatory is not biblical. But I guess that would be a topic for a thread of its own.

 

[Hollie]

But that was not my supposition--or even the hypothesis.

My hypothesis (yes a valid one) is the cosmos/life in the cosmos came from matter or from intelligence. That is something that can be tested by having matter produce life. In fact, I believe such experiments have been tried for some time. If it can be shown that matter alone can produce intelligent life, wouldn't you consider that a valid experiment/test?

So, make a defendable case for your hypothesis. Set forth some evidence or form a rational argument to support your case that the cosmos / life came from an intelligent, supernatural entity.

How do we test for the supernatural?

 

[rightnow909]

There are different levels of spiritual maturity. It's possible that someone is saved, but very spiritually immature. But there are also people who claim to be Christian, but never actually went through spiritual birth… In other words they never got saved. Those are likely the people you're talking about, who say they're going to heaven but then turn around and call people vile names and act just as others in the world act.

Purgatory is not biblical. But I guess that would be a topic for a thread of its own.

yeh, this is the standard protestant line: If someone sins after being saved it means he never was.

NOT

he who says he is without sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. And there is no lying or any other sin in Heaven

Also, It doesn't say anything remotely like that in t he Bible... I wish Protestants would stop claiming to go by the Bible bc they do not, at least not all the time or most of the time

Purgatory isn't biblical? Who says? You? I'll believe the 2000+ year old Church, the only one established by Christ.. .On top of just believing I have also studied the matter... There are scriptures that pertain to Purgatory. But Protestants don't want to hear about that so they just ditch that doctrine and move on to ...whatever...

 

[buttercup]

yeh, this is the standard protestant line: If someone sins after being saved it means he never was.

NOT

What? That's not what I said. Not even close. I said there are different levels of spiritual maturity. And I also said that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually regenerate. And that is undeniable, Jesus Himself said that.

doesn't say anything remotely like that in t he Bible... I wish Protestants would stop claiming to go by the Bible bc they do not, at least not all the time or most of the time

Purgatory isn't biblical? Who says? You? I'll believe the 2000+ year old Church, the only one established by Christ.. .On top of just believing I have also studied the matter... There are scriptures that pertain to Purgatory. But Protestants don't want to hear about that so they just ditch that doctrine and move on to ...whatever...

Purgatory is absolutely unbiblical. It doesn't matter what a church says, it doesn't matter what a priest says, it doesn't matter what a pope says. What matters is what the BIBLE says.

 

[Hollie]

Then don't accept it.

Most of us who do accept it did so after following through on a lot of questions.

The only decision you need to make is whether you want to search for answers to you questions or are you quite content with not accepting it to begin with.

I don’t accept it. Most of you accepting it brings it no closer to fact or truth. Most of have standards to be met before accepting something as true or factual. I have to propose that those who hold a view of supernatural creation based on a religious perspective should not try to pretend that their belief is based on unbiased, scientific hypothesis and should certainly not try to insert their views into the public school science classroom under the false cloak of "scientific" creationism.

 

[rightnow909]

What? That's not what I said. Not even close. I said there are different levels of spiritual maturity. And I also said that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually regenerate. And that is undeniable, Jesus Himself said that.



Purgatory is absolutely unbiblical. It doesn't matter what a church says, it doesn't matter what a priest says, it doesn't matter what a pope says. What matters is what the BIBLE says.

you did too say that... that a person who does that probably wasn't saved... and by the way, no one is saved until he is safely in Heaven... somewhere in the Word it says

something like he who endures until the end WILL be saved--not IS saved... implying Purgatory... because an awful lot of people die before they are ready for Heaven, yet are not deserving of Hell..

Protestants are closed minded about Purgatory so maybe I shouldn't even bother trying to explain a blasted thing... They know everything already... they hear nothing but Pure and absolute truth and history from their human pastors...

I believe the divine Institution founded by Christ

 

[buttercup]

you did too say that... that a person who does that probably wasn't saved... and by the way, no one is saved until he is safely in Heaven... somewhere in the Word it says

No, you are ignoring half of my post. Again, I said there are different levels of spiritual maturity. Meaning, that sometimes Christians act in a worldly, unchristian way, because they are spiritually immature.

But I also said that not everyone who claims to be a Christian actually is. Again, Jesus Himself said that, so I don't know why you're arguing against that.

something like he who endures until the end WILL be saved--not IS saved... implying Purgatory... because an awful lot of people die before they are ready for Heaven, yet are not deserving of Hell..

Protestants are closed minded about Purgatory so maybe I shouldn't even bother trying to explain a blasted thing... They know everything already... they hear nothing but Pure and absolute truth and history from their human pastors...

I believe the divine Institution founded by Christ

The verse you're referencing is talking about the tribulation, and it's talking about surviving the very difficult last days where Christians will be killed just for being Christian. Again, purgatory is unbiblical. But again that's probably best for a thread of its own.

 

[Meriweather]

So, make a defendable case for your hypothesis. Set forth some evidence or form a rational argument to support your case that the cosmos / life came from an intelligent, supernatural entity.

How do we test for the supernatural?

I proposed the hypothesis. I also noted the most scientific way of going about it is to test whether matter can create intelligent life. I noted it is my understanding such experiments are being tried.

I have already explained science cannot test for the non-physical. Science needs matter. Science has no way of dissecting the intelligence out of any brain to try to encourage that intelligence to create a living thing. Yet I think most will agree intelligence does exist, and in a way (IQ tests) can be measured.

 

[rightnow909]

No, you are ignoring half of my post. Again, I said there are different levels of spiritual maturity. Meaning, that sometimes Christians act in a worldly, unchristian way, because they are spiritually immature.

But I also said that not everyone who claims to be a Christian actually is. Again, Jesus Himself said that, so I don't know why you're arguing against that.



The verse you're referencing is talking about the tribulation, and it's talking about surviving the very difficult last days where Christians will be killed just for being Christian. Again, purgatory is unbiblical. But again that's probably best for a thread of its own.

I'm Catholic

there's no trib

and again... talking to a protestant about Catholic beliefs is like talking to a wall

and that doesn't sound like a terribly productive endeavor to yours truly

 

[Hollie]

I proposed the hypothesis. I also noted the most scientific way of going about it is to test whether matter can create intelligent life. I noted it is my understanding such experiments are being tried.

I have already explained science cannot test for the non-physical. Science needs matter. Science has no way of dissecting the intelligence out of any brain to try to encourage that intelligence to create a living thing. Yet I think most will agree intelligence does exist, and in a way (IQ tests) can be measured.

Sure, intelligence exists. How does anyone connect supernatural intelligence that has always existed to any rational explanation of life / intelligence that exists now?

 

[Meriweather]

Sure, intelligence exists. How does anyone connect supernatural intelligence that has always existed to any rational explanation of life / intelligence that exists now?

That was one of my early questions: Did cosmos matter come from intelligence; or, did intelligence come from intelligence? Or, were both always in existence?

As I also said, we kind of first have to determine whether intelligence came from matter.

Just suppose that intelligence comes from intelligence. Then the next question would be, Is God that Intelligence, or did the intelligence create God before it went on to create animals? Have no idea how that one could be shown or solved.

 

[Hollie]

That was one of my early questions: Did cosmos matter come from intelligence; or, did intelligence come from intelligence? Or, were both always in existence?

As I also said, we kind of first have to determine whether intelligence came from matter.

Just suppose that intelligence comes from intelligence. Then the next question would be, Is God that Intelligence, or did the intelligence create God before it went on to create animals? Have no idea how that one could be shown or solved.

Intelligence has obvious advantages that can help with survival, so it is consistent with evolutionary theory, not intervention by supernatural gods.

 

[rightnow909]

How can it be said that intelligence comes from (originates w/) matter?

what created the matter?