I've noticed that people who focus on God's love the most are the most unloving people

[Hollie]

Already explained. Accusing others of lashing out is, by definition, lashing out. That's the point I was making. To drive it home, I said you were lashing out. What did you do? You accused me of lashing out. As I was pretty certain you would. I was teasing, but should have refrained as I was just as certain you wouldn't see the kidding. (And, yes, I'll give myself another prize, directly after I slap my naughty fingers for not behaving.)

I’m not sure where you get your “by definitions”, but enjoy your prize.

 

[Meriweather]

God brings good out of evil? That’s odd. Per the fables, it was the Christian god who brought evil into the world.

God brought everything into being--the topside and the underside. Can't have one side without the other. Most people of faith believe that God cares and helps bring good from the evil that enters each life.

 

[Meriweather]

Causing one person to suffer for eternity (for nothing more than being an unbeliever) is bad enough.

Again, that is your belief, and an example of you saying what Christians "really believe". Christian belief is that Salvation/Redemption is open to all, but not all will want an eternity of loving and serving God and others. If they don't want this fate, they can choose to be apart from God. God sends no one to hell. People choose to dwell there.

 

[Meriweather]

Causing one person to suffer for eternity (for nothing more than being an unbeliever) is bad enough. Causing billions of people to suffer for eternity (especially when most are guilty of nothing more than never having accepted the religion) can only be considered depraved and evil.

You misunderstand. God judges the human heart. Heaven scoops up everyone and keeps what is good and what has value. I am betting you think you can see good in people even without knowing their beliefs. I think you probably can as well. If you and I have that much trust in you that you can see good in people, how much more trust should we have that heaven can as well.

 

[Meriweather]

Causing billions of people to suffer for eternity (especially when most are guilty of nothing more than never having accepted the religion) can only be considered depraved and evil.

You say it is depraved and evil. Those are your first two clues that heaven (and God) cause no such thing. God (and heaven) are loving, just, forgiving and merciful. Those who choose to reject love, forgiveness, justice, and mercy can choose to be in a place where such does not exist.

 

[Meriweather]

You may be missing out of some important rituals. Snake handling, for instance.

Is that what your childhood denomination did? I understand a small minority of denominations will do that.

As for the rest of us: It is in the top Ten Commandments we should not test God. Interesting history behind the snake that crossed Paul's path, though I can no longer remember most of it right off hand.

 

[Meriweather]

but enjoy your prize.

A smile is always enjoyable, which is why sometimes I give into teasing.

 

[boedicca]

I've noticed that people who focus on the government taking over every aspect of our lives are the most hateful people.

 

[Hollie]

God brought everything into being--the topside and the underside. Can't have one side without the other. Most people of faith believe that God cares and helps bring good from the evil that enters each life.

You claim your god brought everything into being but such a statement is unfounded and mere opinion. Other religions make similar claims about their gods. None of those claims carry any affirmation.

Religions generally ignore the obvious conflict of claims to supernaturalism with natural laws. There is nothing about the natural world which can be singled out as due to some non-natural external influence from supernatural entities. Christians have various and convoluted ways to insert their God into a process that requires no gods. We can describe regularities in nature and describe them as laws. Religions want to assign these regularities as supernaturally caused. But why? You can’t assign actions performed by the gods without first establishing the existence of those gods.

Where have you offered any evidence for the Christian god?

 

[Hollie]

Again, that is your belief, and an example of you saying what Christians "really believe". Christian belief is that Salvation/Redemption is open to all, but not all will want an eternity of loving and serving God and others. If they don't want this fate, they can choose to be apart from God. God sends no one to hell. People choose to dwell there.

The Christian Salvation/Redemption program comes with a requirement: ya’ gotta believe in Jesus. All the flowery language about good deeds, be nice to your neighbor, don’t run with scissors, etc., is meaningless.

So, no. “Open to all” carries an entrance fee and the fee was designed by the human authors of the religion to hold a captive audience and make the religion an exclusive club.

 

[Meriweather]

You claim your god brought everything into being but such a statement is unfounded and mere opinion.

It is a little more than that. If we accept that all life on earth came from the earth, and the earth came from the cosmos, then the next step in our genealogy chart is where the cosmos came from.

Thus far we have the option that the cosmos always existed, so no beginning. That is also the explanation for God's existence--He always was, so no beginning.

One hypothesis is that if matter always existed, but the same is not true of intelligence, how did intelligence come from matter? The second hypothesis is if it was intelligence that always existed, but not matter, then how did intelligence create matter from nothing? What is even more fun to contemplate is that if man manages to draw intelligence from a rock, is it man's intelligence that made this happen, or was it the rock?

As you might guess, I am more of the mind intelligence always was, but likely so was matter. If I have to choose one over the other, I choose intelligence. Therefore, I see God as Creator.

 

[Meriweather]

Where have you offered any evidence for the Christian god?

I have never offered evidence and never will (keeping in mind 'never say never'). What I offer is testimony based on my own life experiences. And something I learned in an early science class is that science deals with physical matter. I explore the physical world, something I enjoy. I also enjoy exploring the spiritual realm where measurement isn't an option. Therefore no evidence available--only testimony and faith.

 

[Meriweather]

The Christian Salvation/Redemption program comes with a requirement: ya’ gotta believe in Jesus. All the flowery language about good deeds, be nice to your neighbor, don’t run with scissors, etc., is meaningless.

Again, that is your experience as a child in what was apparently a minority denomination. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches no such requirement. Our requirement is to teach what Jesus and the Apostles taught. We don't lose sight of God's everlasting Covenants and Promises to others.

 

[buttercup]

Why are you lashing out at me for the actions of Christians?

I haven’t stated anywhere to know “what Christian’s believe”, so your lashing out is misplaced. You’re free to add any context to what you believe but your subjective claims to context are better addressed with other Christians.

Speaking of context, the Bible lays out quite clearly that the Christian God created evil ("I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."--Isa. 45:7).

The Bible lays out quite clearly in Genesis that the tree of knowledge of good and evil existed in Eden before Adam and Eve interacted with it. Evil existed from the beginning. And God pronounced it good.

Can I get a Hallelujah brothas’ and sistas’

I may not agree with Meriweather on a number of topics, but one thing about her is she is always calm, civil and mature. I didn't see her "lashing out" at you, at all. Not even close.

I *have* noticed, however, that you've done that before. On threads where you hound Christians and mock their views, you then sometimes will say someone is "lashing out" at you, when they clearly weren't. You've done that to me before.

No worries though. I just wanted to chime in, when I saw you do that again, to someone else.

 

[Hollie]

It is a little more than that. If we accept that all life on earth came from the earth, and the earth came from the cosmos, then the next step in our genealogy chart is where the cosmos came from.

Thus far we have the option that the cosmos always existed, so no beginning. That is also the explanation for God's existence--He always was, so no beginning.

One hypothesis is that if matter always existed, but the same is not true of intelligence, how did intelligence come from matter? The second hypothesis is if it was intelligence that always existed, but not matter, then how did intelligence create matter from nothing? What is even more fun to contemplate is that if man manages to draw intelligence from a rock, is it man's intelligence that made this happen, or was it the rock?

As you might guess, I am more of the mind intelligence always was, but likely so was matter. If I have to choose one over the other, I choose intelligence. Therefore, I see God as Creator.

Nothing about the cosmos having always existed is an explanation for the existence of any Gods. There is no logical nexus of the cosmos with any of the claimed gods.

You might want to understand what a hypothesis is before suggesting that there is a hypothesis that intelligence always existed. Let me guess, your various hypotheses all lead to the conclusion of the Christian god, right?

This is the Christian ID Creation model. ID proponents claim that the intelligent designer exists outside space and time, has always existed, thus, the Christian god.

 

[Hollie]

Again, that is your experience as a child in what was apparently a minority denomination. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches no such requirement. Our requirement is to teach what Jesus and the Apostles taught. We don't lose sight of God's everlasting Covenants and Promises to others.

Ah. So, we can assume that Moslems, Hindus, etc., are all on the highway to heaven. No requirement for belief in Christianity, no commitment to Christian theology just a smile and a “I want in”.

I’m going to heaven so why give a hoot about Christianity?

 

[Hollie]

I may not agree with Meriweather on a number of topics, but one thing about her is she is always calm, civil and mature. I didn't see her "lashing out" at you, at all. Not even close.

I *have* noticed, however, that you've done that before. On threads where you hound Christians and mock their views, you then sometimes will say someone is "lashing out" at you, when they clearly weren't. You've done that to me before.

No worries though. I just wanted to chime in, when I saw you do that again, to someone else.

A valuable contribution.

 

[Meriweather]

You might want to understand what a hypothesis is

Ah, but I do understand it. It is a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

 

[buttercup]

Speaking of context, the Bible lays out quite clearly that the Christian God created evil ("I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."--Isa. 45:7).

See, this is the problem with some nonbelievers. You don't dig deeper, you immediately assume the worst.

The word evil in that verse is not referring to moral evil. The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Many other translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). (source)

And the context is judgement. Again, dig deeper.

The Bible lays out quite clearly in Genesis that the tree of knowledge of good and evil existed in Eden before Adam and Eve interacted with it. Evil existed from the beginning. And God pronounced it good.

No, that is flatly false. Evil is not even a thing in and of itself. It is the absence of, or the opposition of good. Goodness is extant, evil is not.

And what God pronounced "good" was what He had just finished creating. This earth, the animals, people, physical creation. In the beginning it was all good, very good. Before mankind rebelled and the world began to change.

 

[Meriweather]

This is the Christian ID Creation model. ID proponents claim that the intelligent designer exists outside space and time, has always existed, thus, the Christian god.

Exactly. A hypothesis, or--as I am more apt to term this one--a supposition. Note I did not say 'God' or 'Christian God'. I stopped with Intelligence. The reason I did the next question on our genealogy chart becomes, Is intelligence a Being or merely one aspect of any being? In other words, at this point while God definitely has intelligence, we cannot claim Intelligence is God. For example, people have intelligence. Doesn't make them God.