It's the Republicans turn to learn a lesson about the tea party

[WatertheTree]

I agree.

Also, stimulus spending nor government spending creates long term jobs.

How do you create demand?

By offering a product people want.

Like me for example, the economy is down, the other shops around are slow, but i'm still busy...why? Because I offer a good price along with quality work which creates more demand for my services than the other shops .


Another example is apple's I phone. People want it so they sell well.

I dont know of a single person that doesnt want a new home, but they arent selling.

My point is that you not only have to have demand, but you have to have a means to purchase. We got plenty of demand, we consume like no other civilization before us, that hasnt slowed down. What has slowed is ability to buy. It has been slowing for 20 years, but we patched it with credit. Now thats gone, so were just fucked.

 

[canoworms]

I dont know of a single person that doesnt want a new home, but they arent selling.
My point is that you not only have to have demand, but you have to have a means to purchase. We got plenty of demand, we consume like no other civilization before us, that hasnt slowed down. What has slowed is ability to buy. It has been slowing for 20 years, but we patched it with credit. Now thats gone, so were just fucked.

Hope you don't mind if I'm a butinsky, ag workers don't make much and only work seasonal except for a few. Many are now drawing welfare or some sort of public service. Never use to be this way. Use to be a good field to work in as I remember. Made good money once until much of it went to overseas (imports). Nowadays one cannot barely make a living. That and the so called guest worker program which allows employers to pay a lower wage. Over the years I've seen the writting on the walls and prepared for what I've seen coming. Thank goodness I did.

 

[canoworms]

My home is bought and paid for as in todays world, I would never buy a new home. To cheaply made and of poor quality. What I have now is good quality as I've done the work myself and I know what I have. Just cannot see how if one makes over 25K one cannot afford to buy a home. You guys crack me up as I've never made anymore than 24K and often times less as many times I've worked two jobs or put in many hours. I don't even have any bills other than the usual utilities and property taxes and I did all that. All else is paid for. After reading back I've been laughing to hard.

Did I forget to mention I've found most business owners to be snobs?

 

[canoworms]

Guess no one here wants to know what the poor live like then. Guess my impression is you are all snobs. Bye now

 

[Vanquish]

Perhaps that's your experience...and I wont argue it's not....but that's far different from my experience. Most business owners I know (myself included) actually work actively against that perception. And a lot of them have all their "riches" tied up in the business they own - meaning it's not wild money that can be thrown around to show off. Again, that's just my experience.

I do find it hard to believe that anyone making 24,000 a year could buy a home. Not only are utility bills in lots of places between 1k-2k by themselves, but a mortgage of at least 1k on top of that either means you're not counting clothing, entertainment, gasoline, car repairs, children's costs...etc. And that's if you're making 24k AFTER taxes. And I don't see someone making that much being seen as a good risk by a bank either.

But I'd love you to explain it to us. We're mostly friendly around here. We won't bite (unless you get snarky or show partisan bias. Once you get labeled it's hard for people not to gang up on you).

 

[uscitizen]

Yes it is good that the public realizes that the Tea Party is the cause this time that the govt might shut down.
That kind of thing will lose people votes.

 

[asterism]

You can not end the deficit unless you restart the economic engine.

Jobs are the best solution to ending deficits.

Wow! I agree. Innovation creates jobs. Investment creates innovation.

 

[asterism]

You can not end the deficit unless you restart the economic engine.

Jobs are the best solution to ending deficits.

I agree.

Also, stimulus spending nor government spending creates long term jobs.

How do you create demand?

Innovation and efficiency.

 

[Vanquish]

Efficiency might result in lower production costs, but that doesn't mean demand necessarily. Sure it could be passed along by the producer to the consumer via lower prices. It doesn't have to be. It could be pocketed by the producer in the form of higher profits. Higher profits dont make consumers want something more.

Similarly, innovation doesnt necessarily result in demand. It could be an innovation that no one needs. It could be an innovation that increases costs and drives prices up as a result.

 

[canoworms]

Perhaps that's your experience...and I wont argue it's not....but that's far different from my experience.

It appears you don't live in a small town.

And a lot of them have all their "riches" tied up in the business they own - meaning it's not wild money that can be thrown around to show off. Again, that's just my experience.

Lets not forget all the tax deductions and write offs they have as well. Many here have a brand new vehicle every year. I've seen many production owners with brand new 4x4's every year as well. Also, many of the big farmers have swimming pools, new homes while complaining all the time of not having any money. Funny, they sure have it rough.

I do find it hard to believe that anyone making 24,000 a year could buy a home. Not only are utility bills in lots of places between 1k-2k by themselves, but a mortgage of at least 1k on top of that either means you're not counting clothing, entertainment, gasoline, car repairs, children's costs...etc. And that's if you're making 24k AFTER taxes. And I don't see someone making that much being seen as a good risk by a bank either.

Heh heh, my income alone after taxes was 14.2K last year and while I don't pay much in Federal taxes, my state taxes are high (we have an extremely high sales tax). While taxes are raised on businesses here, that tax is passed on to citizens. Bad fruit year. My wife makes a bit more than I do also. Between the two of us, our average income after taxes is what I've shown. As for children, I've raised one child who is no longer at home with us. I put that child thru college as well. One could not do that today because of the ecomonics of today. As for a bad risk for banks, many of us are screwed because of that attitude (you have no idea). Higher interest rates on everything from cars to homes and I've never been late on a payment. Btw, I purchased my home in the 80's when home prices were lower than today's prices and often times I've worked two jobs making double payments. Nice home now as I've done much of the work myself. As for entertainment and car repairs, no entertainment (depends on what one defines as entertainment) and car repairs I do myself. Same with home repairs and improvements. The cost of homes depends on where one lives. Also depends on what one wants out of life and how bad one does not mind getting screwed by banks and business owners. Btw, there is class warfare going on and it's all directed towards the working poor (which I am now part of after I was always considered middle class, retired now and a good thing) and lower middle class. Age discrimination is alive and well in this country. Many of you out here have no idea of what's going on.

We won't bite (unless you get snarky or show partisan bias. Once you get labeled it's hard for people not to gang up on you).

Use to that, been on these threads for many years. Doesn't bother me one bit.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

You can not end the deficit unless you restart the economic engine.

Jobs are the best solution to ending deficits.

I agree.

Also, stimulus spending nor government spending creates long term jobs.

How do you create demand?

I was hoping you would respond back to my other post but since you didn't I'll just lay it on you.

I know where you are going "Govt spending creates demand, that will create jobs, that will fix the economy" Correct?

Well if we have to borrow that money to spend then the demand is not sustainable, it is only temporary and the fix the economy and jobs market will not be sustainable and only be temporary.

Just look at how bad things have gotten in the last months, now that the stimulus has run out, for jobs, the GDP, and the Stock market. We can't create artificial demand through govt spending as it is not a permanet, long term, or affordable solution to our problem.

In summary...We can't borrow money to artificially stimulate the economy if we want a long term recovery.

 

[canoworms]

Mr. Vanquish, I also find it interesting how many of you vote the same morons in every election year while all the time those same morons have caused the mess we are in. Myself as one who has grown up in this country my view is this is not the America I've grown up in it has changed from better to worse. While I have no problems with changes, the fact that many of the lower middle and poor classes are being screwed interest me now. I also find it interesting that many of the upper middle classes are feeling the pinch as well now that they are being knocked down into the lower middle classes. Seems things never bothered them until it happens to them, then they scream bloody murder heh heh. I've been finding this all entirely humorous.

 

[canoworms]

Mr Pilgrim, if the government would put money into the hands of the lower middle classes and the working poor, they would spend it. You people have it all backwards. You have the same attitude Mr. Vanquish has, we are a poor risk. Rather an ignorant and foolish one to as we are the backbone of this country. How's that for a novel thought?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Mr Pilgrim, if the government would put money into the hands of the lower middle classes and the working poor, they would spend it. You people have it all backwards. You have the same attitude Mr. Vanquish has, we are a poor risk. Rather an ignorant and foolish one to as we are the backbone of this country.

What do I specifically have backwards?

And the very thing you said about giving the poor and middle class lower tax rates is why I support obama's extention of the Bush Tax rates.

 

[canoworms]

What do I specifically have backwards?

Many of you put money into the hands of businesses and not the working poor or lower middle classes, thus you support this. Another issue is wage discreptioncies. (Sorry about spelling, I won't use this spell check on this. Can't afford another computer at this time). It would take me a half days work just to pay an electrician to do some work on my home if I cannot do it myself otherwise I'd hire one to do some work if I could and won't unless I really have to. I make everything I have last as long as possible and I'm not the only one that does this. Little wonder people don't spend money in the classes I've mentioned.

And the very thing you said about giving the poor and middle class lower tax rates is why I support obama's extention of the Bush Tax rates.

Your tax breaks do us no good. Try buying a washing machine at todays interest rates for the working poor who are a bad bank risk (remember that attitude). At 12% interest or is it higher now, one could buy two machines. Many loan companies charge upwards to 24% interest. There are those who have no choice but to take out a loan with some of those.

 

[canoworms]

A few years back, I bought a new car at 9% interest even though I had good credit, remember, I'm a bad bank risk because of my choice of work. Btw, I don't have any credit cards and I worked all the time when I could before I retired. If one owned a business or was upper middle class, that would be 0 interest, I know, I've seen that advertized. Wrong place to put money. You really need to research some of your knowledge base. To raise prices in order to make up for less consumer spending is not the way to go.

 

[Oldstyle]

You can not end the deficit unless you restart the economic engine.

Jobs are the best solution to ending deficits.

Private Sector jobs are the best solution to ending deficits. Too bad this Administration has spent so much time proposing or passing legislation that killed jobs in the Private Sector while at the same time spending billions subsidizing their union pals in the Public Sector. Want to restart the economic engine? Vote Republican in 2012. Want to watch the economy continue to sputter? Vote Democratic in 2012 and watch us suffer for ANOTHER four years.

 

[Vanquish]

Mr Pilgrim, if the government would put money into the hands of the lower middle classes and the working poor, they would spend it. You people have it all backwards. You have the same attitude Mr. Vanquish has, we are a poor risk. Rather an ignorant and foolish one to as we are the backbone of this country. How's that for a novel thought?

There you go. I never said that I thought you were a poor risk. I said banks would. Be a little more careful.

The discussion of Keynesian economics (spendig to create demand) and Friedman's (lower the cost of labor for business owners) ends in one conclusion:
people resorted to increased borrowing in order to make up for lost wages/benefits/programs/entitlements/etc.thinking that the money, jobs, and benefits would trickle down. It never did.

Mr. Vanquish, I also find it interesting how many of you vote the same morons in every election year while all the time those same morons have caused the mess we are in.

You chose from the same choices I did, buddy. I think you are assuming that you know who I voted for in the last election. I voted for Obama because I thought he really could change things up. (There's a lot more analysis that went into it of course) He's done a mediocre job and I'd rather not vote for him again.

I'm tempted to vote Ron Paul just to say "fuck it! let's trying something wildly different!"...but the other side of me says that grasping at straws...extreme straws is a dangerous risk.

Don't assume you know what I do in the ballot box.

 

[canoworms]

Jobs are the best solution to ending deficits.

Jobs are also great for lowering the crime rates as well. Regardless of what one reads, crime rates are still pretty high.

 

[canoworms]

There you go. I never said that I thought you were a poor risk. I said banks would. Be a little more careful.

I'll give you this one.

people resorted to increased borrowing in order to make up for lost wages/benefits/programs/entitlements/etc.

Gotta put food somewhere and the best place is under the nose. As for entitlements, that's exactly what they are when one is forced to pay into a system (SS and medicare) with no choice. Try to have it not taken out of one's pay. One can have taxes not withheld until the end of the year but not SS and medicare. As for investing SS in the stock markets as some politicians want to, what a joke. Look at how much money was lost lately by many. If there are many taking advantage of our social system now, imagine what it would be like if all those who played and lost in the stock markets have with no future prospects of a retirement ( I think you get the drift if I didn't say that quite right). The cost would be prohibitive to our tax system hence the Humpdy Dumpty sendrome whence we are rapidly approaching. I would also like to add that if that becomes the norm, why then if many lose their retirements through the stock markets should those that do not participate in that form should they be responsible for those that lose their retirements? Makes no sense to me.

You chose from the same choices I did, buddy. I think you are assuming that you know who I voted for in the last election.

Heh heh, once I realized 40 years ago when things started going down hill, I've voted for neither democrat or republican, I see you've seen why. I preferred to throw a wrench into the system to wake the morons in D.C. up by voting third party. I figure the more the merrier. As for assuming who one voted for, I assume nothing except for the promotion of discussion. Not bad for a high school drop out, huh.