"It's not theirs, Its mine"

That was in 2016.

Let us now compare to more information since then:

August 31, 2022

In the Trump case, federal authorities have identified more than 322 individual documents containing classified information that were kept at Mar-a-Lago: 184 "unique documents" containing classified information were retrieved early this year, another 38 such documents were retrieved in June, and then more than 100 more documents marked "classified" were found during the FBI raid on August 8, according to Justice Department filings in court.

In Clinton's case, the most sensitive "top secret" information on her servers was deemed by authorities to be "relevant to" and "associated with" a tightly-guarded "Special Access Program" -- and the inspector general said that "investigators found evidence of a conscious effort to avoid sending classified information, by writing around the most sensitive material."

Comparing classified info​

Some of Trump's allies claim that the way Clinton allegedly mishandled sensitive information was -- as one pundit put it -- "a lot more serious" than the way Trump allegedly did.

Just on the surface, the number of items containing classified information is different. In the Clinton case, federal authorities identified "approximately 193 individual emails" that, when sent, contained some level of classified information, according to a 2018 report from the Justice Department's inspector general.

"It's not unusual for folks with clearances to sometimes discuss classified matters in unsecure settings," said Tony Mattivi, a former federal prosecutor who coordinated the Justice Department's counterintelligence and counterterrorism cases in Kansas. "You can't always be in a [secure room] when you need to talk to some people or do certain things, so the way you do that is talk around the classified part. ... [But] that's very different than possessing classified material."

In contrast, federal authorities have recovered from Mar-a-Lago more than 100 "unique documents" marked "secret" and dozens of other documents marked "top secret," including "Special Access Program materials," according to the Justice Department and National Archives. Some of those documents marked "classified" were found inside Trump's desk in his office, the Justice Department said.

Accordingly, there "is a meaningful distinction" between Trump's alleged handling of classified documents and what the Justice Department's inspector general says transpired in the Clinton case, according to Mattivi, a Republican who recently lost a primary race to become attorney general of Kansas.

Where's the evidence -- literally?​

In accusing the FBI of treating Trump and Clinton differently, Trump's allies have publicly noted that -- even though Clinton potentially compromised classified information -- "we didn't raid her home," as Trump's former CIA director, Mike Pompeo, recently put it.

But in his report on the Clinton matter, the Justice Department's inspector general made clear that federal investigators in that case were able to obtain the materials at issue -- Clinton's private email servers and the emails themselves -- without raiding her home.

"Where possible, it is standard practice to seek less intrusive means as an alternative to a search," Attorney General Merrick Garland said in a statement after the raid on Trump's estate.

As described in the inspector general's report on the Clinton matter, "the FBI obtained more than 30 devices" from Clinton and her aides, and "received consent to search Clinton-related communications on most of these devices." Among those 30 devices were two of Clinton's three private email servers, after the third server had been "discarded" years earlier "and, thus, the FBI was never able to access it for review," the inspector general's report said.

In Trump's case, the evidence at the center of the ongoing investigation was still being held at Mar-a-Lago, even after a federal grand jury subpoena three months earlier instructed that "any and all documents" marked "classified" be turned over.

------------

So prosecutors decided "there was no basis" to charge Clinton or her aides, the inspector general said.

That decision "was consistent with the Department's historical approach in prior cases under different leadership," the inspector general said, noting his office "found no evidence that the conclusions by the prosecutors were affected by bias or other improper considerations."

Nevertheless, in his controversial July 2016 press conference announcing the FBI's findings, Comey said that -- despite a lack of sufficient evidence to bring charges -- Clinton and her aides were still "extremely careless" in handing "very sensitive, highly classified information," noting that "none" of the emails they sent "should have been on any kind of unclassified system."

[Comey has apologized for his harsh words, since then in another article ]

Records 'torn up' by Trump​

According to the redacted affidavit released in Trump's case, the FBI is also now investigating whether Trump or his aides may have violated a federal law that criminalizes the "willful" concealment, removal or mutilation of federal records.

In 2016, federal prosecutors contemplated charging Clinton or her aides for violating the same law -- Section 2071 of U.S. Code 18 -- after more than 30,000 emails, which her legal team erroneously deemed personal in nature, were deleted from a server.

Witnesses in the Clinton case told investigators they "expected that any emails sent to a state.gov address would be preserved" -- and many of those emails were acquired from other devices -- so "there was no evidence that Clinton or anyone else" intended to conceal, remove or destroy the emails from government systems, the inspector general said.

In addition, federal prosecutors concluded that, unlike the electronic communications underpinning Clinton's case, "every prosecution under Section 2071 has involved" the "physical removal" or destruction of a document, the inspector general said.

Federal authorities now suggest Trump's actions might fit that mold.

In January, after a months-long effort to retrieve government records from Trump, the National Archives publicly released a statement saying "some of the Trump presidential records" it received from Mar-a-Lago "included paper records that had been torn up by former President Trump." The National Archives then referred the matter to the Justice Department, flagging that it could constitute a violation of Section 2071, the Justice Department said in its Tuesday filing.


(full article online)

whataboutism, and it's entirely irrelevant.
 
The thread is about Trump and the documents he took.

You attempt to derail it and then do not like it with faced with the facts.



Your post was about your claim that there was no evidence that Hillary didn't take any classified documents. You conducted a thorough effort in whataboutism.
 
Raising the stakes on its extraordinary subpoena to Donald Trump, the House committee investigating the Capitol riot indicated Sunday it would not consider letting the former president testify live on television about the direct role that congressional investigators say he played in trying to overturn the 2020 election.

The committee is demanding Trump’s testimony under oath next month as well as records relevant to its investigation. To avoid a complicated and protracted legal battle, Trump reportedly had told associates he might consider complying with the subpoena if he could answer questions during live testimony.

But Rep. Liz Cheney, the committee's vice chair, on Sunday rejected the possibility. She said the committee, which makes its major decisions with unanimous consent, would not allow Trump's testimony to turn into a “food fight” on TV and she warned that the committee will take action if he does not comply with the subpoena.

“We are going to proceed in terms of the questioning of the former president under oath," Cheney, R-Wyo., said on “Meet the Press” on NBC. “It may take multiple days, and it will be done with a level of rigor and discipline and seriousness that it deserves. We are not going to allow — he’s not going to turn this into a circus.”

“We have many, many alternatives that we will consider if the former president decides he is not going to comply with his legal obligation, a legal obligation every American citizen has to comply with a subpoena," she said.

It is unclear how Trump and his legal team will ultimately respond. He could comply or negotiate with the committee, announce he will defy the subpoena or ignore it altogether. He could go to court and try to stop it.

---
Cheney, in the television interview, made her position clear that Trump had committed “multiple criminal offenses” and should be prosecuted. She cited his repeated efforts as outlined by the Jan. 6 committee to undermine democracy by denying his election loss to Democrat Joe Biden and by spurring his supporters in the violent attack on the Capitol.

“We’ve been very clear about a number of different criminal offenses that are likely at issue here,” Cheney said. “If the Department of Justice determines that they have the evidence that we believe is there and they make a decision not to prosecute, I think that really calls into question whether or not we’re a nation of laws.”


 
Raising the stakes on its extraordinary subpoena to Donald Trump, the House committee investigating the Capitol riot indicated Sunday it would not consider letting the former president testify live on television about the direct role that congressional investigators say he played in trying to overturn the 2020 election.

The committee is demanding Trump’s testimony under oath next month as well as records relevant to its investigation. To avoid a complicated and protracted legal battle, Trump reportedly had told associates he might consider complying with the subpoena if he could answer questions during live testimony.

But Rep. Liz Cheney, the committee's vice chair, on Sunday rejected the possibility. She said the committee, which makes its major decisions with unanimous consent, would not allow Trump's testimony to turn into a “food fight” on TV and she warned that the committee will take action if he does not comply with the subpoena.

“We are going to proceed in terms of the questioning of the former president under oath," Cheney, R-Wyo., said on “Meet the Press” on NBC. “It may take multiple days, and it will be done with a level of rigor and discipline and seriousness that it deserves. We are not going to allow — he’s not going to turn this into a circus.”

“We have many, many alternatives that we will consider if the former president decides he is not going to comply with his legal obligation, a legal obligation every American citizen has to comply with a subpoena," she said.

It is unclear how Trump and his legal team will ultimately respond. He could comply or negotiate with the committee, announce he will defy the subpoena or ignore it altogether. He could go to court and try to stop it.

---
Cheney, in the television interview, made her position clear that Trump had committed “multiple criminal offenses” and should be prosecuted. She cited his repeated efforts as outlined by the Jan. 6 committee to undermine democracy by denying his election loss to Democrat Joe Biden and by spurring his supporters in the violent attack on the Capitol.

“We’ve been very clear about a number of different criminal offenses that are likely at issue here,” Cheney said. “If the Department of Justice determines that they have the evidence that we believe is there and they make a decision not to prosecute, I think that really calls into question whether or not we’re a nation of laws.”


Trump will fight it legally until the election, at which time the new Republicans will abolish it.
 


DOJ can compel Patel to testify under oath in the grand jury. If Patel then lies after being compelled to testify under a grant of immunity, Patel CAN be prosecuted for those grand jury lies, assuming DOJ can prove it. Risk: Patel lies and provides a false alibi for Trump.



@sandibachom

Replying to
@AWeissmann_
Kash Patel was installed to be chief of staff of Chris Miller and facilitated the 14 times they denied the national guard on January 6. I was there.
 
Meanwhile, some interesting witness testimony is in the works this week.

  1. Hope Hicks sat down for a formal deposition, under oath, with the J6C yesterday. Hicks left the White House for Fox News after serving as communications director, but was among the Trump faithful who returned at the end of the administration. Multiple books have reported variations on the same conversation between Hicks and Trump, with Hicks telling him he couldn’t win and Trump refusing to consider conceding. Her testimony, now that it has happened under oath, could prove interesting. Did they ever have a conversation where he conceded he’d lost but told her he had to keep fighting? Hicks may be able to provide unique details regarding Trump’s state of mind or other details regarding his behavior. Interesting that the woman formerly billed as the Trump-whisperer is only just now testifying. It’s unclear whether the committee is simply cleaning up unfinished details or believes Hicks has important testimony to offer.
  2. On the DOJ end of things, there are reports prosectors will compel Kash Patel to testify in the Mar-a-Lago investigation after he reportedly asserted his 5th Amendment right to avoid self-incrimination, repeatedly, when subpoenaed to the grand jury. Patel is another Trump loyalist. A former DOJ prosector, he worked for Trump on the national security side of the house and when Trump appointed Chris Miller to be the Secretary of Defense a week after losing the election, he sent Patel along with him to serve as chief of staff. (You’ll recall I have questions about that whole scenario).
Patel has said publicly that he saw Trump declassify MAL documents while still in the White House—an evidence-free claim even Trump’s lawyers seem to have abandoned in litigation. So you can understand why Patel might have a little heartburn about testifying under oath, either repeating what appears to be a lie and risking perjury charges or recanting the lie and incurring Trump’s wrath.

What does this mean for the Mar-a-Lago investigation? Patel was in the thick of things here and it’s entirely likely he has some exposure himself. DOJ gets testimony from people like him in one of two ways; either by entering into cooperation agreements where a witness testifies voluntarily in exchange for a favorable plea deal, or, less frequently by giving a witness use immunity in exchange for testifying. With immunity, the testimony and any information developed as a result of it can’t be used against the witness in a future prosecution, but they lose their 5th Amendment right to abstain from truthful testimony.

Offering Patel immunity for his testimony suggests that DOJ is focused on a bigger target: Trump. Federal prosecutors don’t seek immunity for the kind of spaghetti they throw up against the wall to see what sticks. Seeking use immunity requires high level DOJ approval, even in a more routine matter. Here, it almost certainly signifies DOJ has Trump squarely in its sights and that he is a target of the investigation. Patel, having lost the option to duck questions, will have to decide whether to lie for Trump and risk prosecution or come clean. As a former prosecutor, he should have an acute understanding of what the first path would mean for him. Patel has stuck resolutely with Trump so far, but somewhere a prosecutor is telling him that he can either be a witness or a co-defendant. Only a fool would take the later choice here.

  1. DOJ is also trying to compel two lawyers from Trump’s White House counsel office, former White House counsel Pat Cipollone and deputy White House counsel Patrick Philbin, to testify against Trump regarding the insurrection. The White House counsel’s office represents the presidency, not the president, so this fight is primarily about executive privilege, not attorney-client privilege, although there’s still a slice of that here, since Trump was not their client. That hasn’t kept the former president from fighting to prevent their testimony.
A similar analysis to the one that permitted piercing the privilege John Eastman tried to assert over his emails is likely to apply here. The law is less clear, but the same principle, that as with the attorney-client privilege, executive privilege can't be a shield for hiding criminal conduct comes into play. That would mean that there would be a legitimate scope where the privilege would prevent testimony and a more narrowly drawn area where the lawyers’ testimony could be compelled. If you watched the J6C hearings, you know that the lawyers refused to answer questions about their conversations with Trump, asserting privilege. And of course, those are the most important bits. DOJ wants their testimony about those conversations with Trump about losing the election and his plans to hold onto power.

Increasingly, if belatedly, Congress and prosecutors are having success at getting those in Trump’s inner circle to sit down with them, voluntarily or otherwise. But that progress, and the fate of these multiple efforts to hold Trump accountable is unavoidably intertwined with the outcome of the midterm elections, which are now less than two weeks away.

How do you talk to people who don’t seem to be focused on the trite but true essence of this election, that democracy is on the ballot? This tweet captures an important aspect of it and may be a helpful share with friends and family, as we encourage everyone to vote for candidates who support democracy, right down to the wire.

https://joycevance.substack.com/p/chickens-and-witnesses?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=607357&post_id=80641576&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email
 
Meanwhile, some interesting witness testimony is in the works this week.

  1. Hope Hicks sat down for a formal deposition, under oath, with the J6C yesterday. Hicks left the White House for Fox News after serving as communications director, but was among the Trump faithful who returned at the end of the administration. Multiple books have reported variations on the same conversation between Hicks and Trump, with Hicks telling him he couldn’t win and Trump refusing to consider conceding. Her testimony, now that it has happened under oath, could prove interesting. Did they ever have a conversation where he conceded he’d lost but told her he had to keep fighting? Hicks may be able to provide unique details regarding Trump’s state of mind or other details regarding his behavior. Interesting that the woman formerly billed as the Trump-whisperer is only just now testifying. It’s unclear whether the committee is simply cleaning up unfinished details or believes Hicks has important testimony to offer.
  2. On the DOJ end of things, there are reports prosectors will compel Kash Patel to testify in the Mar-a-Lago investigation after he reportedly asserted his 5th Amendment right to avoid self-incrimination, repeatedly, when subpoenaed to the grand jury. Patel is another Trump loyalist. A former DOJ prosector, he worked for Trump on the national security side of the house and when Trump appointed Chris Miller to be the Secretary of Defense a week after losing the election, he sent Patel along with him to serve as chief of staff. (You’ll recall I have questions about that whole scenario).
Patel has said publicly that he saw Trump declassify MAL documents while still in the White House—an evidence-free claim even Trump’s lawyers seem to have abandoned in litigation. So you can understand why Patel might have a little heartburn about testifying under oath, either repeating what appears to be a lie and risking perjury charges or recanting the lie and incurring Trump’s wrath.

What does this mean for the Mar-a-Lago investigation? Patel was in the thick of things here and it’s entirely likely he has some exposure himself. DOJ gets testimony from people like him in one of two ways; either by entering into cooperation agreements where a witness testifies voluntarily in exchange for a favorable plea deal, or, less frequently by giving a witness use immunity in exchange for testifying. With immunity, the testimony and any information developed as a result of it can’t be used against the witness in a future prosecution, but they lose their 5th Amendment right to abstain from truthful testimony.

Offering Patel immunity for his testimony suggests that DOJ is focused on a bigger target: Trump. Federal prosecutors don’t seek immunity for the kind of spaghetti they throw up against the wall to see what sticks. Seeking use immunity requires high level DOJ approval, even in a more routine matter. Here, it almost certainly signifies DOJ has Trump squarely in its sights and that he is a target of the investigation. Patel, having lost the option to duck questions, will have to decide whether to lie for Trump and risk prosecution or come clean. As a former prosecutor, he should have an acute understanding of what the first path would mean for him. Patel has stuck resolutely with Trump so far, but somewhere a prosecutor is telling him that he can either be a witness or a co-defendant. Only a fool would take the later choice here.

  1. DOJ is also trying to compel two lawyers from Trump’s White House counsel office, former White House counsel Pat Cipollone and deputy White House counsel Patrick Philbin, to testify against Trump regarding the insurrection. The White House counsel’s office represents the presidency, not the president, so this fight is primarily about executive privilege, not attorney-client privilege, although there’s still a slice of that here, since Trump was not their client. That hasn’t kept the former president from fighting to prevent their testimony.
A similar analysis to the one that permitted piercing the privilege John Eastman tried to assert over his emails is likely to apply here. The law is less clear, but the same principle, that as with the attorney-client privilege, executive privilege can't be a shield for hiding criminal conduct comes into play. That would mean that there would be a legitimate scope where the privilege would prevent testimony and a more narrowly drawn area where the lawyers’ testimony could be compelled. If you watched the J6C hearings, you know that the lawyers refused to answer questions about their conversations with Trump, asserting privilege. And of course, those are the most important bits. DOJ wants their testimony about those conversations with Trump about losing the election and his plans to hold onto power.

Increasingly, if belatedly, Congress and prosecutors are having success at getting those in Trump’s inner circle to sit down with them, voluntarily or otherwise. But that progress, and the fate of these multiple efforts to hold Trump accountable is unavoidably intertwined with the outcome of the midterm elections, which are now less than two weeks away.

How do you talk to people who don’t seem to be focused on the trite but true essence of this election, that democracy is on the ballot? This tweet captures an important aspect of it and may be a helpful share with friends and family, as we encourage everyone to vote for candidates who support democracy, right down to the wire.

https://joycevance.substack.com/p/chickens-and-witnesses?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=607357&post_id=80641576&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email
Nice copy/paste
TL;DR
 
The ones that were acted upon and clemency granted or pardons issued probably are the property of the government, as they went into the decision-making. But, that is for the judge.

They all belong to the National Archives..

Every scrap of paper..

Don't you know by now that Trump is ignorant to the point of incompetence?
 
They all belong to the National Archives..

Every scrap of paper..

Don't you know by now that Trump is ignorant to the point of incompetence?
We know that Presidents know shit and everyone prior to Trump for 30 years sucked.
 
They all belong to the National Archives..

Every scrap of paper..

Don't you know by now that Trump is ignorant to the point of incompetence?
Sure, I know it.
 

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