It was GOP tax breaks and subsidies that moved millions of jobs to China. Not trade agreements.

[rdean]

Whitehouse says companies get a tax break for moving jobs overseas

So the law Whitehouse decries is still the law. There is little debate that the current system allows companies to get a tax break for their expenses when they send jobs outside the U.S.
We rate Whitehouse's statement True.

GOP senators block Dem ‘insourcing’ bill
Under current law, companies can deduct the cost of moving people and equipment overseas from their taxes. S. 3364 would have eliminated that deduction, and created a new 20 percent tax credit for all costs associated with moving overseas jobs back to America.

Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing
Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing


Bernie Santa's followers have it all wrong. There is nothing in any trade agreement about tax breaks for companies moving millions of American jobs to China. It's been and has always been about GOP tax cuts and subsidies for companies moving to China. Come on people, get it right.

Who's fault is it if leaving the US is a tax-break?

How come Republicans have no responsibility for what happened from 2001 to 2008?

 

[rdean]

Since millions of jobs moved under Bush and the GOP was able to use reconcilliation three times, I'm guessing you think tax breaks and subsidies were the answer, but they didn't work out as planned. Did I guess right?

So let me get this straight.....

You're claiming Bill Clinton fucked shit up so bad that tax breaks and subsidies couldn't even fix it, right????

Hey, wait.....

Didn't Obungles sign an agreement like that???

Trans-Pacific Partnership Free Trade Agreement (TPP)
The United States and 11 other Pacific Rim nations—Australia, Brunei Darussalam, Canada, Chile, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam and Japan—signed the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) on Feb. 4, 2016. This trade, investment and economic governance agreement had been negotiated in secret since 2010.

The AFL-CIO provided the Obama administration with ideas to improve U.S. trade positions so that they work for the 99%, not just the 1%. Unfortunately, our ideas were rejected. The final TPP will not create jobs, protect the environment or ensure safe imports. Rather, it appears modeled after the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), a free trade agreement that boosts global corporate profits while leaving working families behind.

I'm sorry, I didn't see a thing in there about tax breaks and subsidies. Would you mind pointing them out?

I pointed out where the TRADE AGREEMENTS are the problem, Dumbass...

And even the LIBERAL Huffington Post agrees!!!

So once again, your thread fails due to you posting a bunch of bull crap that I can call you on using LIBERAL sources....

View attachment 66186

Many articles in magazines, even liberal one, are opinion pieces.
The truth is that without tax breaks and subsidies and seminars to teach business to move, so many might not have left. Remember, millions of jobs moved to China when Republicans controlled both houses and Bush was president. Republicans were able to use reconcilliation again and again. And yet, even with proven GOP inaction, it's the fault of the Democrats????
How can that be? Republicans take no responsibility even when no one can stop them.

Libs have been saying this for decades, but they never mention any specific taxes or subsidies. So tell us, what tax breaks or subsidies should Congress eliminate to prevent corporations from relocating overseas?

No one said it would prevent it. In fact, what has been said is that some jobs would have moved there anyway because Chinese workers were making $172 an hour. But Republicans didn't have to help them.

And don't be an idiot fool. Read the first post of this thread. Stop being a moron.

 

[hadit]

Whitehouse says companies get a tax break for moving jobs overseas

So the law Whitehouse decries is still the law. There is little debate that the current system allows companies to get a tax break for their expenses when they send jobs outside the U.S.
We rate Whitehouse's statement True.

GOP senators block Dem ‘insourcing’ bill
Under current law, companies can deduct the cost of moving people and equipment overseas from their taxes. S. 3364 would have eliminated that deduction, and created a new 20 percent tax credit for all costs associated with moving overseas jobs back to America.

Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing
Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing


Bernie Santa's followers have it all wrong. There is nothing in any trade agreement about tax breaks for companies moving millions of American jobs to China. It's been and has always been about GOP tax cuts and subsidies for companies moving to China. Come on people, get it right.

Who's fault is it if leaving the US is a tax-break?

How come Republicans have no responsibility for what happened from 2001 to 2008?

Who says they don't?

 

[mudwhistle]

Whitehouse says companies get a tax break for moving jobs overseas

So the law Whitehouse decries is still the law. There is little debate that the current system allows companies to get a tax break for their expenses when they send jobs outside the U.S.
We rate Whitehouse's statement True.

GOP senators block Dem ‘insourcing’ bill
Under current law, companies can deduct the cost of moving people and equipment overseas from their taxes. S. 3364 would have eliminated that deduction, and created a new 20 percent tax credit for all costs associated with moving overseas jobs back to America.

Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing
Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing


Bernie Santa's followers have it all wrong. There is nothing in any trade agreement about tax breaks for companies moving millions of American jobs to China. It's been and has always been about GOP tax cuts and subsidies for companies moving to China. Come on people, get it right.

Who's fault is it if leaving the US is a tax-break?

How come Republicans have no responsibility for what happened from 2001 to 2008?

Republicans weren't the ones demanding tax increases, hundreds of new regulations, and raising the minimum wage every fricken second of the day. The Democrats prepared for all of the damage their policies would cause by demanding an extension of unemployment benefits to 73 weeks. They knew what their stupidity would cause and tried to head it off.

 

[flacaltenn]

Oh look, rdean is lying again.

How unique.

Except that his source this time STOLE the Politifact Truth meter. Because even Politifact disagrees with RDean on this one. In fact his link starts out "The WhiteHouse says......" --- which should have set off alarms right there.

Maybe the White House stole the truth meter. They needed one..

 

[rdean]

Whitehouse says companies get a tax break for moving jobs overseas

So the law Whitehouse decries is still the law. There is little debate that the current system allows companies to get a tax break for their expenses when they send jobs outside the U.S.
We rate Whitehouse's statement True.

GOP senators block Dem ‘insourcing’ bill
Under current law, companies can deduct the cost of moving people and equipment overseas from their taxes. S. 3364 would have eliminated that deduction, and created a new 20 percent tax credit for all costs associated with moving overseas jobs back to America.

Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing
Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing


Bernie Santa's followers have it all wrong. There is nothing in any trade agreement about tax breaks for companies moving millions of American jobs to China. It's been and has always been about GOP tax cuts and subsidies for companies moving to China. Come on people, get it right.

Who's fault is it if leaving the US is a tax-break?

How come Republicans have no responsibility for what happened from 2001 to 2008?

Republicans weren't the ones demanding tax increases, hundreds of new regulations, and raising the minimum wage every fricken second of the day. The Democrats prepared for all of the damage their policies would cause by demanding an extension of unemployment benefits to 73 weeks. They knew what their stupidity would cause and tried to head it off.

Hundreds of new regulations? Name some.

 

[Wilbur Right]

The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries, so why is it even mentioned in this debate?

That right. Assholes like you think it is all taxes as the motivator for companies moving out of country.

When in fact it is the HUUUGE reduction in labor cost that make the move so.profitable.

So asshole, which does a large corporation pay more of; taxes or labor.

Simple question asshole. See if you can answer it honestly.

 

[rdean]

The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries, so why is it even mentioned in this debate?

That right. Assholes like you think it is all taxes as the motivator for companies moving out of country.

When in fact it is the HUUUGE reduction in labor cost that make the move so.profitable.

So asshole, which does a large corporation pay more of; taxes or labor.

Simple question asshole. See if you can answer it honestly.

They won't because the already know the answer.

 

[Andylusion]

Whitehouse says companies get a tax break for moving jobs overseas

So the law Whitehouse decries is still the law. There is little debate that the current system allows companies to get a tax break for their expenses when they send jobs outside the U.S.
We rate Whitehouse's statement True.

GOP senators block Dem ‘insourcing’ bill
Under current law, companies can deduct the cost of moving people and equipment overseas from their taxes. S. 3364 would have eliminated that deduction, and created a new 20 percent tax credit for all costs associated with moving overseas jobs back to America.

Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing
Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing


Bernie Santa's followers have it all wrong. There is nothing in any trade agreement about tax breaks for companies moving millions of American jobs to China. It's been and has always been about GOP tax cuts and subsidies for companies moving to China. Come on people, get it right.

Who's fault is it if leaving the US is a tax-break?

How come Republicans have no responsibility for what happened from 2001 to 2008?

Republicans weren't the ones demanding tax increases, hundreds of new regulations, and raising the minimum wage every fricken second of the day. The Democrats prepared for all of the damage their policies would cause by demanding an extension of unemployment benefits to 73 weeks. They knew what their stupidity would cause and tried to head it off.

Hundreds of new regulations? Name some.

That would seem to be a dumb comment. The Obama Care bill was 20,000 pages alone. Now unless you think that those 20,000 pages contained one single 20,000 page long regulation.... which I know isn't true because I've read several pages of it.... then you are bonkers for even asking to name some. Obama Care is made of of THOUSANDS of regulations.

 

[hadit]

Over a hundred posts and no tax breaks identified?

 

[TNHarley]

LMAO you have GOT to be kidding me!
Trade deals block out all kinds of regulations. It is LEGAL for an American company to move production to China and use slave labor, for example. We have lefty unions that DEMAND twenty bucks an hour to turn a fuckin bolt on an assembly line. Lets be REAL here.
Im not denying other parts of the OP but my gawd, the corporatist, child rapist supporting OP is grasping for air!

 

[mudwhistle]

Whitehouse says companies get a tax break for moving jobs overseas

So the law Whitehouse decries is still the law. There is little debate that the current system allows companies to get a tax break for their expenses when they send jobs outside the U.S.
We rate Whitehouse's statement True.

GOP senators block Dem ‘insourcing’ bill
Under current law, companies can deduct the cost of moving people and equipment overseas from their taxes. S. 3364 would have eliminated that deduction, and created a new 20 percent tax credit for all costs associated with moving overseas jobs back to America.

Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing
Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing


Bernie Santa's followers have it all wrong. There is nothing in any trade agreement about tax breaks for companies moving millions of American jobs to China. It's been and has always been about GOP tax cuts and subsidies for companies moving to China. Come on people, get it right.

Who's fault is it if leaving the US is a tax-break?

How come Republicans have no responsibility for what happened from 2001 to 2008?

Republicans weren't the ones demanding tax increases, hundreds of new regulations, and raising the minimum wage every fricken second of the day. The Democrats prepared for all of the damage their policies would cause by demanding an extension of unemployment benefits to 73 weeks. They knew what their stupidity would cause and tried to head it off.

Hundreds of new regulations? Name some.

Obamacare is a prime example. Everyone has to have a health care plan for workers if they are full time employees if you are above a set amount . This caused companies to stop hiring new employees and to cut back on hours for the current employees. The new standard for full time is 30 hrs. So people had to work two jobs just be be able to earn the same amount of income.
The EPA makes it nearly impossible for large construction projects because of environmental concerns. The Hoover Dam couldn't be built in today's America because of the threat to the ecosystem. The Twin Towers were built in a couple of years, but the Freedom Towers didn't even start construction for several years, and to date still hasn't been completed.
New regulations have made it more cost effective to hire refugees from Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador than to hire local residents. Part of the reason is people who are here as a refugee can work for lower wages and their health care is paid for by Obama programs. Disney has been using their current employees to train their immigrant replacements for over a year. Soon all of those people that have been working for Disney for decades will be filing for unemployment.
A couple of years ago, Obama rolled out a stack of new regulations that stood 8 feet high. They needed a hand truck to roll it out to the media. Many of these regulations were designed to punish businesses and cause the costs of products to skyrocket. Look at the costs of fast foods, snack foods, anything you buy at a convenience store is double or triple the price of what you'd pay at Walmart. They've decided that Trans-fatty acids are bad for you, so they've made it harder to use. Gluten has become a poison according to some. Salt, the same thing. High fructose Corn Syrup.
Obama is trying to put the coal industry out of business, so your energy bill went up.
The cost of prescription medication has shown massive increases due to regulations.
The individual mandate for Obamacare has already been imposed. The Group Plan mandates have yet to kick in. According to the Federal Register, it was predicted in 2010 that 60% of all employees will lose their health plans due to new regulations the Obama Administration has imposed on them. It is cheaper to pay the fines than it is to buy the insurance Obama forces them to buy. So businesses will simply drop coverage, fire a bunch of people, and pay fines.

If you wonder why the military costs the federal government so much it's partly because of federal regulations. Obama imposed a federal minimum-wage of $15/hr. All subcontractors must provide full health coverage and benefits for their employees or they don't get the job. This doubles the cost of construction jobs on post.

I'm only scratching the surface here. Must I go on?

 

[mudwhistle]

Whitehouse says companies get a tax break for moving jobs overseas

So the law Whitehouse decries is still the law. There is little debate that the current system allows companies to get a tax break for their expenses when they send jobs outside the U.S.
We rate Whitehouse's statement True.

GOP senators block Dem ‘insourcing’ bill
Under current law, companies can deduct the cost of moving people and equipment overseas from their taxes. S. 3364 would have eliminated that deduction, and created a new 20 percent tax credit for all costs associated with moving overseas jobs back to America.

Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing
Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing


Bernie Santa's followers have it all wrong. There is nothing in any trade agreement about tax breaks for companies moving millions of American jobs to China. It's been and has always been about GOP tax cuts and subsidies for companies moving to China. Come on people, get it right.

Who's fault is it if leaving the US is a tax-break?

How come Republicans have no responsibility for what happened from 2001 to 2008?

Republicans weren't the ones demanding tax increases, hundreds of new regulations, and raising the minimum wage every fricken second of the day. The Democrats prepared for all of the damage their policies would cause by demanding an extension of unemployment benefits to 73 weeks. They knew what their stupidity would cause and tried to head it off.

Hundreds of new regulations? Name some.

That would seem to be a dumb comment. The Obama Care bill was 20,000 pages alone. Now unless you think that those 20,000 pages contained one single 20,000 page long regulation.... which I know isn't true because I've read several pages of it.... then you are bonkers for even asking to name some. Obama Care is made of of THOUSANDS of regulations.

Yeah, but, yeah, but, the original Obamacare bill was only 900 pages. So all of those accompanying regulations don't matter, if you're a lying liberal.

 

[bripat9643]

The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries, so why is it even mentioned in this debate?

That right. Assholes like you think it is all taxes as the motivator for companies moving out of country.

When in fact it is the HUUUGE reduction in labor cost that make the move so.profitable.

So asshole, which does a large corporation pay more of; taxes or labor.

Simple question asshole. See if you can answer it honestly.

I've never denied that the cost of labor was the main factor, so why would I do it now? Leftists like rdean have been saying it was "Republican tax cuts and subsidies." If you disagree with that, then take it up with him.

 

[Wilbur Right]

I'm only scratching the surface here. Must I go on?

Hell yea keep on. I am sure that I am not the only one that likes to read fiction.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Since millions of jobs moved under Bush and the GOP was able to use reconcilliation three times, I'm guessing you think tax breaks and subsidies were the answer, but they didn't work out as planned. Did I guess right?

So let me get this straight.....

You're claiming Bill Clinton fucked shit up so bad that tax breaks and subsidies couldn't even fix it, right????

Hey, wait.....

Didn't Obungles sign an agreement like that???

Trans-Pacific Partnership Free Trade Agreement (TPP)
The United States and 11 other Pacific Rim nations—Australia, Brunei Darussalam, Canada, Chile, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam and Japan—signed the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) on Feb. 4, 2016. This trade, investment and economic governance agreement had been negotiated in secret since 2010.

The AFL-CIO provided the Obama administration with ideas to improve U.S. trade positions so that they work for the 99%, not just the 1%. Unfortunately, our ideas were rejected. The final TPP will not create jobs, protect the environment or ensure safe imports. Rather, it appears modeled after the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), a free trade agreement that boosts global corporate profits while leaving working families behind.

I'm sorry, I didn't see a thing in there about tax breaks and subsidies. Would you mind pointing them out?

I pointed out where the TRADE AGREEMENTS are the problem, Dumbass...

And even the LIBERAL Huffington Post agrees!!!

So once again, your thread fails due to you posting a bunch of bull crap that I can call you on using LIBERAL sources....

View attachment 66186

Many articles in magazines, even liberal one, are opinion pieces.
The truth is that without tax breaks and subsidies and seminars to teach business to move, so many might not have left. Remember, millions of jobs moved to China when Republicans controlled both houses and Bush was president. Republicans were able to use reconcilliation again and again. And yet, even with proven GOP inaction, it's the fault of the Democrats????
How can that be? Republicans take no responsibility even when no one can stop them.

Libs have been saying this for decades, but they never mention any specific taxes or subsidies. So tell us, what tax breaks or subsidies should Congress eliminate to prevent corporations from relocating overseas?

It should be reported to the poster to whom you are responding, that Obama is the "Outsource President"



1. The Obama administration had joined the new Arab-based International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA), and agreed to provide millions to support international green energy jobs. “In its fiscal 2012 budget request for international programs,the administration has asked for $5.2 million for IRENA.”U.S. Taxpayers on the Hook As Obama Joins a New International Renewable Energy Agency | CNS NewsHow many jobs in the United States will this endeavor provide?

2. Obama regulatory and tax policies sent jobs overseas.

3. “President Barack Obama will present his “jobs plan” on Wednesday at a companywhich is shipping jobs overseas…. WestStar is a high-end, specialty manufacturer that just opened a new facility in San Jose, Costa Rica — creating many new jobs there, but not in the United States.”http://test.dailycaller.com/2011/09/...to-costa-rica/




4. “This isn’t the first time Obama has chosen to speak at a North Carolina companyoutsourcing jobsoverseas.In mid-June, Obama spoke at Cree LED Light Company to discuss his job creation and economic policies. Cree has been shipping jobs to China.” Ibid.

a. Cree was also a recipient of Obama stimulus funds, a portion of which was also used tosend jobs overseas.
Limbaugh, “The Great Destroyer,” p.27.

5. “The Department of Energy estimated that 82,000 jobs have been created and has acknowledged that as much as 80 percent of some green programs, including $2.3 billion of manufacturing tax credits,went to foreign firms that employed workers primarily in countries includingChina, South Korea and Spain, rather than in the United States.”'Green' jobs no longer golden in stimulus - Washington Times




6. WASHINGTON -- Xerox, whose CEO, Ursula Burns, is advising President Obama on exports, last week told its product engineering employees that it is in outsourcing talks withIndia-based IT services firmHCL Technologies.Xerox CEO, an Obama appointee, may send jobs to Indian firm - Computerworld

7. (CNSNews.com) – U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said today that he told his daughter tobuy a Japanese car--a Toyota Sienna--and that she did so.U.S. Transportation Secretary: I Told My Daughter to Buy Japanese Car | CNS News




8. “U.S. funds, Arizona efforthelp Mexico truckspollute less
Using EPA grant money, the state offered to refit the trucks with the new exhaust systems, replacing factory-installed mufflers with converters similar to what is required for U.S. trucks. The process takes two or three hours to complete at a cost per truck of about $1,600…. The entire cost - parts and labor - is paid by the EPA grant through ADEQ.”U.S. funds, Arizona effort help Mexico trucks pollute less


9. “…Obama administration is now taking your American tax dollars and using them tofund the BBC World Service — Britain’s state-financed radio network.”The PJ Tatler » Your tax dollars now funding the BBC in addition to NPR

 

[Wilbur Right]

I've never denied that the cost of labor was the main factor, so why would I do it now?

Really? I have seen you write often about corporate taxes driving business out of the country.

Never read where you claimed labor savings was the prime reason. And that being able to write off the cost of the move on taxes was icing on the cake.

That and being able to defer taxes on profits realized on out of country business.

Nope never seen you say any of the above.

It's always taxes are SO high we FORCE business to leave. That's what you say.

 

[Andylusion]

The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries, so why is it even mentioned in this debate?

That right. Assholes like you think it is all taxes as the motivator for companies moving out of country.

When in fact it is the HUUUGE reduction in labor cost that make the move so.profitable.

So asshole, which does a large corporation pay more of; taxes or labor.

Simple question asshole. See if you can answer it honestly.

No one denied that. You can't point to a single post on here by anyone on the right which says "Taxes are the only reason companies move". You just made that up.

Is that how we debate now? Make up what the other person didn't say, and call them an asshole for what they didn't say? Because I can make tons of crap you didn't say, and spit insults at you for it. Just let me know.

Read what he wrote.... "The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries". He never said it wasn't a factor in companies moving out of the country. He said it's not a factor that can be controlled, so why talk about it?

Especially in other countries. People scream about China all the time, and yet, what exactly do you think the government should do? Ask China to put in place a $15/hr minimum wage? Not going to happen. Simply not going to happen.

Now one think I disagree with bripat9643 on, is that there is something we can do about the cost of labor, but it's everything that you people on the left will hate, and refuse to accept, which is why those jobs are NEVER coming back.

Ban Unions. Unions drive up costs. Always have, always will.

Eliminate the minimum wage. Let the employer and employee determine the price.

Eliminate employer side taxes. We can cut labor costs in the US by 7.5% instantly by repealing the FICA tax.

Eliminate unemployment compensation.

Eliminate health care mandates.

You do those things, and America will create jobs by the millions, and in months.

But of course the left refuses to accept this, and like Atlas Shrugged, "I demand you make OUR plan work"... can't. You can't tax, mandate, and regulate companies into creating jobs. Which is exactly what we've been doing, and exactly why companies are leaving.

Your fault. Not ours.

 

[Andylusion]

I've never denied that the cost of labor was the main factor, so why would I do it now?

Really? I have seen you write often about corporate taxes driving business out of the country.

Never read where you claimed labor savings was the prime reason. And that being able to write off the cost of the move on taxes was icing on the cake.

That and being able to defer taxes on profits realized on out of country business.

Nope never seen you say any of the above.

It's always taxes are SO high we FORCE business to leave. That's what you say.

Which is true. That statement being true, doesn't deny the others.

Taxes are high, and drives companies out of the country.
Labor costs are high, and drives companies out of the country.

These two statements are not mutually exclusive. I don't even understand why you claim they are. (yes I know you didn't claim that, but since you have no problem saying we claimed that labor cost isn't a factor, I thought I could play the same game).

The primary reason we focus on taxes, is because it is a major factor, and one we can easily fix.

We can also do things to lower labor costs, but left-wingers hate cutting regulations, and programs and mandates. So it's harder to deal with that issue.

 

[flacaltenn]

The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries, so why is it even mentioned in this debate?

That right. Assholes like you think it is all taxes as the motivator for companies moving out of country.

When in fact it is the HUUUGE reduction in labor cost that make the move so.profitable.

So asshole, which does a large corporation pay more of; taxes or labor.

Simple question asshole. See if you can answer it honestly.

It's obvious that TEMPORARILY the move was to seek "cheap labor". .But that fad is almost dead now. Because the governments propping up this "cheap labor" are realizing what the REAL COSTS actually were to them,. China moved folks 1000 miles from home and housed them, fed them, medicated them, counseled them, etc.

The Chinese decided to leverage their manufacturing with cheap labor INITIALLY, until they could afford the automation part. Now they have little control over the situation as their smaller manufacturers all start to replace labor with the appropriate machining.

You don't understand the political nightmare of all this for American politicians. What NEEDED to be done was to stem the outsourcing by providing DEEPER write-offs and waiving regulations for AUTOMATED 21st Century factories here in the states. That is how stuff will get built in this century. But the "optics" of putting Americans out of lever-pulling jobs was just too severe for them to handle.

There needs to be a shift in job-training at ALL levels of competence before that kind of dislocation can be handled.
While the left is beefing about $15/hr for burger flipping --- the LARGER PROBLEM is --- that beef flipping isn't gonna require a human hand in your lifetime..