It was GOP tax breaks and subsidies that moved millions of jobs to China. Not trade agreements.

[flacaltenn]

The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries, so why is it even mentioned in this debate?

That right. Assholes like you think it is all taxes as the motivator for companies moving out of country.

When in fact it is the HUUUGE reduction in labor cost that make the move so.profitable.

So asshole, which does a large corporation pay more of; taxes or labor.

Simple question asshole. See if you can answer it honestly.

No one denied that. You can't point to a single post on here by anyone on the right which says "Taxes are the only reason companies move". You just made that up.

Is that how we debate now? Make up what the other person didn't say, and call them an asshole for what they didn't say? Because I can make tons of crap you didn't say, and spit insults at you for it. Just let me know.

Read what he wrote.... "The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries". He never said it wasn't a factor in companies moving out of the country. He said it's not a factor that can be controlled, so why talk about it?

Especially in other countries. People scream about China all the time, and yet, what exactly do you think the government should do? Ask China to put in place a $15/hr minimum wage? Not going to happen. Simply not going to happen.

Now one think I disagree with bripat9643 on, is that there is something we can do about the cost of labor, but it's everything that you people on the left will hate, and refuse to accept, which is why those jobs are NEVER coming back.

Ban Unions. Unions drive up costs. Always have, always will.

Eliminate the minimum wage. Let the employer and employee determine the price.

Eliminate employer side taxes. We can cut labor costs in the US by 7.5% instantly by repealing the FICA tax.

Eliminate unemployment compensation.

Eliminate health care mandates.

You do those things, and America will create jobs by the millions, and in months.

But of course the left refuses to accept this, and like Atlas Shrugged, "I demand you make OUR plan work"... can't. You can't tax, mandate, and regulate companies into creating jobs. Which is exactly what we've been doing, and exactly why companies are leaving.

Your fault. Not ours.

Generally --- you got it.. And we agree a whole lot. But I've pondered the "union" issue a while and come to a different conclusion.. The unions are irrelevant today because their vision of "a job" is prehistoric. They spend all their time LIMITING a job definition and they dont GiveaF about CAREER or CONTRIBUTION to the overall effort. I think unions have one play left. And that is to become more aware of CAREER and FLEXIBLE job descriptions.

I also the Min Wage ought to apply ONLY to retirees and students. You should either be out of the main workforce by age or TRAINING for a career.. Let the employers subsidize 2 yr Community college as a requirement to pay min wage and allow min wage to include subsidies for career training.

 

[hadit]

Anybody identify a tax break that drove jobs to China yet?

 

[rdean]

Whitehouse says companies get a tax break for moving jobs overseas

So the law Whitehouse decries is still the law. There is little debate that the current system allows companies to get a tax break for their expenses when they send jobs outside the U.S.
We rate Whitehouse's statement True.

GOP senators block Dem ‘insourcing’ bill
Under current law, companies can deduct the cost of moving people and equipment overseas from their taxes. S. 3364 would have eliminated that deduction, and created a new 20 percent tax credit for all costs associated with moving overseas jobs back to America.

Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing
Senate Republicans block bill to end tax breaks for outsourcing


Bernie Santa's followers have it all wrong. There is nothing in any trade agreement about tax breaks for companies moving millions of American jobs to China. It's been and has always been about GOP tax cuts and subsidies for companies moving to China. Come on people, get it right.

Who's fault is it if leaving the US is a tax-break?

How come Republicans have no responsibility for what happened from 2001 to 2008?

Republicans weren't the ones demanding tax increases, hundreds of new regulations, and raising the minimum wage every fricken second of the day. The Democrats prepared for all of the damage their policies would cause by demanding an extension of unemployment benefits to 73 weeks. They knew what their stupidity would cause and tried to head it off.

Hundreds of new regulations? Name some.

That would seem to be a dumb comment. The Obama Care bill was 20,000 pages alone. Now unless you think that those 20,000 pages contained one single 20,000 page long regulation.... which I know isn't true because I've read several pages of it.... then you are bonkers for even asking to name some. Obama Care is made of of THOUSANDS of regulations.

What does Obamacare have to do with trade agreements and the GOP paying subsidies to move American jobs to China?

 

[rdean]

Over a hundred posts and no tax breaks identified?

This helps explain how they did it:

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=laborunions

Fact Check: Tax break for shipping jobs overseas? Well, sort of | Fox News

Democrats have pushed legislation that would deny any tax deduction for opening up shop overseas at the expense of jobs in the U.S.

They have also pushed to eliminate the ability of companies to defer taxes on income earned overseas.

Holtz-Eakin said that's another piece of the tax code that Obama could have been referencing. Currently, U.S. companies operating overseas are supposed to pay both U.S. taxes and the taxes of the country they're operating in. To lessen the burden, U.S. tax code allows companies to defer the U.S. chunk of that until the money is brought back into America.

--------------


If you weren't such a dipshit, you could go look stuff up yourself. It's part of the US Tax policy. Any company that moves is able to get tax deductions, whether it's moving within the country or moving outside the country. Every body already knows that. But there you are, dipshit in a tinfoil hat beating a small tin can with a wooden spoon while shouting you don't want to learn anything. Well, we already knew that.

 

[hadit]

Over a hundred posts and no tax breaks identified?

This helps explain how they did it:

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=laborunions

Fact Check: Tax break for shipping jobs overseas? Well, sort of | Fox News

Democrats have pushed legislation that would deny any tax deduction for opening up shop overseas at the expense of jobs in the U.S.

They have also pushed to eliminate the ability of companies to defer taxes on income earned overseas.

Holtz-Eakin said that's another piece of the tax code that Obama could have been referencing. Currently, U.S. companies operating overseas are supposed to pay both U.S. taxes and the taxes of the country they're operating in. To lessen the burden, U.S. tax code allows companies to defer the U.S. chunk of that until the money is brought back into America.

--------------


If you weren't such a dipshit, you could go look stuff up yourself. It's part of the US Tax policy. Any company that moves is able to get tax deductions, whether it's moving within the country or moving outside the country. Every body already knows that. But there you are, dipshit in a tinfoil hat beating a small tin can with a wooden spoon while shouting you don't want to learn anything. Well, we already knew that.

Oh, brother, and here I thought you were trying to be serious with this, but obviously you're not. Do you have ANY evidence at all that this one tax deduction that has been around without Obama doing anything about it, is what caused companies to move "millions of jobs" to China? Any at all? A signed letter from a CEO, anything like that? Because if you don't, the only conclusion is you're stuck on stupid and don't know how to get off now that everyone is laughing at you.

 

[rdean]

Over a hundred posts and no tax breaks identified?

This helps explain how they did it:

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=laborunions

Fact Check: Tax break for shipping jobs overseas? Well, sort of | Fox News

Democrats have pushed legislation that would deny any tax deduction for opening up shop overseas at the expense of jobs in the U.S.

They have also pushed to eliminate the ability of companies to defer taxes on income earned overseas.

Holtz-Eakin said that's another piece of the tax code that Obama could have been referencing. Currently, U.S. companies operating overseas are supposed to pay both U.S. taxes and the taxes of the country they're operating in. To lessen the burden, U.S. tax code allows companies to defer the U.S. chunk of that until the money is brought back into America.

--------------


If you weren't such a dipshit, you could go look stuff up yourself. It's part of the US Tax policy. Any company that moves is able to get tax deductions, whether it's moving within the country or moving outside the country. Every body already knows that. But there you are, dipshit in a tinfoil hat beating a small tin can with a wooden spoon while shouting you don't want to learn anything. Well, we already knew that.

Oh, brother, and here I thought you were trying to be serious with this, but obviously you're not. Do you have ANY evidence at all that this one tax deduction that has been around without Obama doing anything about it, is what caused companies to move "millions of jobs" to China? Any at all? A signed letter from a CEO, anything like that? Because if you don't, the only conclusion is you're stuck on stupid and don't know how to get off now that everyone is laughing at you.

It doesn't matter what Obama tries to do. You know that. I know that. The entire world knows that. Republicans won't let him do anything if they can stop him. It doesn't matter what. The GOP still has the same old goal of bring down Obama. You know that. Admit it. Republicans controlled both houses under Bush. They were able to use reconcilliation three times to create trillions in debt. They control both houses now.

But at least you admit that under the GOP, millions of jobs moved to China and tens of thousands of factories closed.

 

[bripat9643]

Over a hundred posts and no tax breaks identified?

This helps explain how they did it:

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=laborunions

Fact Check: Tax break for shipping jobs overseas? Well, sort of | Fox News

Democrats have pushed legislation that would deny any tax deduction for opening up shop overseas at the expense of jobs in the U.S.

They have also pushed to eliminate the ability of companies to defer taxes on income earned overseas.

Holtz-Eakin said that's another piece of the tax code that Obama could have been referencing. Currently, U.S. companies operating overseas are supposed to pay both U.S. taxes and the taxes of the country they're operating in. To lessen the burden, U.S. tax code allows companies to defer the U.S. chunk of that until the money is brought back into America.

--------------


If you weren't such a dipshit, you could go look stuff up yourself. It's part of the US Tax policy. Any company that moves is able to get tax deductions, whether it's moving within the country or moving outside the country. Every body already knows that. But there you are, dipshit in a tinfoil hat beating a small tin can with a wooden spoon while shouting you don't want to learn anything. Well, we already knew that.

Oh, brother, and here I thought you were trying to be serious with this, but obviously you're not. Do you have ANY evidence at all that this one tax deduction that has been around without Obama doing anything about it, is what caused companies to move "millions of jobs" to China? Any at all? A signed letter from a CEO, anything like that? Because if you don't, the only conclusion is you're stuck on stupid and don't know how to get off now that everyone is laughing at you.

It doesn't matter what Obama tries to do. You know that. I know that. The entire world knows that. Republicans won't let him do anything if they can stop him. It doesn't matter what. The GOP still has the same old goal of bring down Obama. You know that. Admit it. Republicans controlled both houses under Bush. They were able to use reconcilliation three times to create trillions in debt. They control both houses now.

But at least you admit that under the GOP, millions of jobs moved to China and tens of thousands of factories closed.

Republicans would be happy to allow Obama to repeal Obamacare, enforce our immigration laws, cut regulations and reduce government spending.

 

[hadit]

Over a hundred posts and no tax breaks identified?

This helps explain how they did it:

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=laborunions

Fact Check: Tax break for shipping jobs overseas? Well, sort of | Fox News

Democrats have pushed legislation that would deny any tax deduction for opening up shop overseas at the expense of jobs in the U.S.

They have also pushed to eliminate the ability of companies to defer taxes on income earned overseas.

Holtz-Eakin said that's another piece of the tax code that Obama could have been referencing. Currently, U.S. companies operating overseas are supposed to pay both U.S. taxes and the taxes of the country they're operating in. To lessen the burden, U.S. tax code allows companies to defer the U.S. chunk of that until the money is brought back into America.

--------------


If you weren't such a dipshit, you could go look stuff up yourself. It's part of the US Tax policy. Any company that moves is able to get tax deductions, whether it's moving within the country or moving outside the country. Every body already knows that. But there you are, dipshit in a tinfoil hat beating a small tin can with a wooden spoon while shouting you don't want to learn anything. Well, we already knew that.

Oh, brother, and here I thought you were trying to be serious with this, but obviously you're not. Do you have ANY evidence at all that this one tax deduction that has been around without Obama doing anything about it, is what caused companies to move "millions of jobs" to China? Any at all? A signed letter from a CEO, anything like that? Because if you don't, the only conclusion is you're stuck on stupid and don't know how to get off now that everyone is laughing at you.

It doesn't matter what Obama tries to do. You know that. I know that. The entire world knows that. Republicans won't let him do anything if they can stop him. It doesn't matter what. The GOP still has the same old goal of bring down Obama. You know that. Admit it. Republicans controlled both houses under Bush. They were able to use reconcilliation three times to create trillions in debt. They control both houses now.

But at least you admit that under the GOP, millions of jobs moved to China and tens of thousands of factories closed.

1. Republicans have given Obama virtually everything he demanded, strike one.
2. Obama had the White House and both houses of Congress for a couple of years and did nothing about it, strike two.
3. I don't see anyone denying that high costs and consumer demand for low prices forced some companies to move some operations to China in order to survive, so strike three and you're out.
4. Harry Reid refused to even debate a budget for years. Man, the strikes just keep piling up.
5. You have no evidence that a tax break caused companies to move millions of jobs to China.

 

[Wilbur Right]

. You have no evidence that a tax break caused companies to move millions of jobs to China.

Actually it has been explained in this thread that a combo of tax write offs, deferrals of tax on profits and the biggie, cheap labor are three reasons companies move out of country.

But I read the happy horse shit your wrote in your post and have concluded you are to fucking stupid to comprehend what has been allowed to happen to US manufacturing jobs.

 

[Wilbur Right]

Republicans have given Obama virtually everything he demanded, strike one.

Unfucking believable you would write that.

 

[hadit]

. You have no evidence that a tax break caused companies to move millions of jobs to China.

Actually it has been explained in this thread that a combo of tax write offs, deferrals of tax on profits and the biggie, cheap labor are three reasons companies move out of country.

But I read the happy horse shit your wrote in your post and have concluded you are to fucking stupid to comprehend what has been allowed to happen to US manufacturing jobs.

Awww, look at you trying to be insulting and failing miserably. Here's reality. American labor costs are high enough that it's cost effective to replace workers with automation or overseas workers. Overseas workers get the work now because they're cheaper than automation, but that won't last for much longer either. There simply won't ever be thousands of men working the assembly line in America cranking out cars any more. That ship has sailed.

 

[hadit]

Republicans have given Obama virtually everything he demanded, strike one.

Unfucking believable you would write that.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you actually believed that crap.

 

[Andylusion]

Anybody identify a tax break that drove jobs to China yet?

There is a tax deduction you can use for moving expenses. It is not specific to China. The deduction is generally used for moving the headquarters of a company. For example there was a company that moved from Columbus area to Hilliard area, here in central Ohio. The costs of moving everything, equipment computers, blaw blaw blaw, can be tax deducted.

The left-wing democrats, claimed that such a deduction can be used to move operations, of say a manufacturing plant, to China.

In theory it can. In practice, I would wager it's extremely rare. Most of the plants, are simply sold off, and new equipment is purchased at the new location.

Those that do move, are typically because they are bought out. So X Corp, sells off a plant to China Corp, and China Corp ships that stuff back to China. That's not tax deductible.

This again, is just a way to score political points, rather than make any real difference in the economy. The democraps knew that talking about this largely irrelevant tax dedication would stir up the little left-wing-lemmings. They were correct.

 

[Wilbur Right]

There simply won't ever be thousands of men working the assembly line in America cranking out cars any more. That ship has sailed.[/QUOTE




Toyota had 31,000 direct employees in the U.S. in 2012, meaning a total payroll of about $2.1 billion, compared to Ford's 80,000 U.S. employees supplying their 3,300 dealerships and Chrysler's 71,100 U.S. employees supplying their 2,328 dealerships.[5]


Really? No more thousands of Americans building cars.

See what I mean about you being stupid?

 

[Wilbur Right]

Most of the plants, are simply sold off, and new equipment is purchased at the new location.

It isn't the physical plant they are moving.

It is the tooling, the metal stamping equipment, painting, computers, etc etc.

That's what gets moved. The company gets new facilities when they get to their new country.

 

[hadit]

There simply won't ever be thousands of men working the assembly line in America cranking out cars any more. That ship has sailed.[/QUOTE




Toyota had 31,000 direct employees in the U.S. in 2012, meaning a total payroll of about $2.1 billion, compared to Ford's 80,000 U.S. employees supplying their 3,300 dealerships and Chrysler's 71,100 U.S. employees supplying their 2,328 dealerships.[5]


Really? No more thousands of Americans building cars.

See what I mean about you being stupid?

How many of those employees actually work on the assembly line? See what I mean about you trying to be insulting and failing?

 

[Wilbur Right]

How many of those employees actually work on the assembly line? See what I mean about you trying to be insulting and failing?

Thousands.

See what I mean about you being stupid? You keep proving what I say about you is the truth. You stupid.

 

[hadit]

How many of those employees actually work on the assembly line? See what I mean about you trying to be insulting and failing?

Thousands.

See what I mean about you being stupid? You keep proving what I say about you is the truth. You stupid.

Evidence from the short bus is required. Show us the thousands manually assembling cars in the US today.

 

[Andylusion]

The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries, so why is it even mentioned in this debate?

That right. Assholes like you think it is all taxes as the motivator for companies moving out of country.

When in fact it is the HUUUGE reduction in labor cost that make the move so.profitable.

So asshole, which does a large corporation pay more of; taxes or labor.

Simple question asshole. See if you can answer it honestly.

No one denied that. You can't point to a single post on here by anyone on the right which says "Taxes are the only reason companies move". You just made that up.

Is that how we debate now? Make up what the other person didn't say, and call them an asshole for what they didn't say? Because I can make tons of crap you didn't say, and spit insults at you for it. Just let me know.

Read what he wrote.... "The cost of labor isn't something the federal government has any control over, especially in foreign countries". He never said it wasn't a factor in companies moving out of the country. He said it's not a factor that can be controlled, so why talk about it?

Especially in other countries. People scream about China all the time, and yet, what exactly do you think the government should do? Ask China to put in place a $15/hr minimum wage? Not going to happen. Simply not going to happen.

Now one think I disagree with bripat9643 on, is that there is something we can do about the cost of labor, but it's everything that you people on the left will hate, and refuse to accept, which is why those jobs are NEVER coming back.

Ban Unions. Unions drive up costs. Always have, always will.

Eliminate the minimum wage. Let the employer and employee determine the price.

Eliminate employer side taxes. We can cut labor costs in the US by 7.5% instantly by repealing the FICA tax.

Eliminate unemployment compensation.

Eliminate health care mandates.

You do those things, and America will create jobs by the millions, and in months.

But of course the left refuses to accept this, and like Atlas Shrugged, "I demand you make OUR plan work"... can't. You can't tax, mandate, and regulate companies into creating jobs. Which is exactly what we've been doing, and exactly why companies are leaving.

Your fault. Not ours.

Generally --- you got it.. And we agree a whole lot. But I've pondered the "union" issue a while and come to a different conclusion.. The unions are irrelevant today because their vision of "a job" is prehistoric. They spend all their time LIMITING a job definition and they dont GiveaF about CAREER or CONTRIBUTION to the overall effort. I think unions have one play left. And that is to become more aware of CAREER and FLEXIBLE job descriptions.

I also the Min Wage ought to apply ONLY to retirees and students. You should either be out of the main workforce by age or TRAINING for a career.. Let the employers subsidize 2 yr Community college as a requirement to pay min wage and allow min wage to include subsidies for career training.

Well we had on this exact forum, a guy who claimed to be part of the Union which destroyed hostess, and he at least seemed knowledgeable enough to comment.

They openly voted to destroy the company. He even said as much, which jives with what we know happened.

Now regardless of reason, how does that look to investors?

The difference in labor costs between the Unionized companies, verses non-union companies is huge. Which is exactly why GM and Chrysler went bust, while Honda Toyota, and Nissan did not.

The only reason Ford didn't, is because the Unions made concession in 2006, with Ford. They agreed to cut Union wages, which allowed Ford to sneak past the 2009 crash, without bankruptcy.

I think Unions are still a factor, and one that causes lots of jobs to leave the country.

Let employers subsidize college? Are you crazy? So I'm the employer. I hire on some teenager. He goes to college on my dime, and then quits. Either he fails out, or he gets a degree and disappears.

Either way, the cost of funding college, will exceed the value that he brings into my company. Resulting on me losing money on every teenager I hire.

What am I going to do? Never hire a teenager again. Terrible idea.

 

[Andylusion]

Most of the plants, are simply sold off, and new equipment is purchased at the new location.

It isn't the physical plant they are moving.

It is the tooling, the metal stamping equipment, painting, computers, etc etc.

That's what gets moved. The company gets new facilities when they get to their new country.

Yeah, which as I said, most simply sell off the stuff they have here, and build a new plant over there.

I can take you to 3 different companies right now, right here in Columbus Ohio, which all bought used equipment from large companies that left. They sold off all their equipment, and opened up else where. Whether it was over seas, or to another state, I don't know. But once they have depreciated most of their original value, and once these machines are 5 to 10 years old... the risk of paying tons of money to ship them from here, to China or where ever, is extremely high, and the chance of damaging them also very high. Do you really want to pay $15 thousand dollars to ship, and repair a 2010 Chevy pickup? For a few thousand more, you could get a new one.

The more expensive the equipment, the larger the numbers, but the ratios are similar. Build a bran new state of the art facility somewhere, and fill it with used beat up equipment in constant need of repair? Not likely.

Obviously there are exceptions. Japanese companies famously bought up Steel plants closed by the Unions, dismantled the smelters and equipment, shipped it back to Japan, and started producing Steel. The irony there is that this tax deduction would not apply, and they didn't have free-trade at the time. So neither can be blamed.

Again, though, the tax deduction in question is so tiny, as to be insignificant. The dedication isn't for replacing equipment. It's not for repairing old equipment. It doesn't cover the new building, or new construction, or purchase of a plot of land.

This deduction exclusively covers moving expenses.

To explain this in a understandable way......

It is the equivalent of me earning $20,000 a year right now, getting a job in Indiana earning $50,000. And getting a tax deduction on the $200 truck rental, which at 25% tax rate, would be saving me a whooping $50.

Then having someone scream that the moving tax deduction is causing people to leave Ohio.

The cost of moving is likely the least of all expenses. The solution is to make it profitable enough to stay in Ohio. Not try and somehow make it less profitable to move. There is no amount of fees, or expenses that you are going to levy on me, that is going to get me to think that somehow staying in Ohio earning $20,000 a year, is a better option than going to Indiana and earning $50,000. If need be, I'll just sell of everything I own, and just go to Indiana, and start over.

Stuff can be replaced. It's the skill, knowledge, know-how, experience, and abilities that can't. When the company moves you can keep all the crap, and it will stay crap.

Think of Exxon and Venezuela. Exxon was building a major refinery in Venezuela. Would have been the most productive in the world. Venezuela nationalized the refinery, and kicked Exxon out. Now how have things gone? Venezuela is crap, and still has to export oil to refineries in the US, and then import the refined oil products back to Venezuela, while output of product in Venezuela has declined year over year. Exxon.... still one of the most profitable and growing oil companies in the world.

Who won there?