Israel's "Right to Exist"?

[georgephillip]

You failed to answer my question before positing another of your own, Princess. That's so typical of you but I will, nonetheless, answer yours: Not yet.
So why are you fixated on Israel?

When you say "(n)on-citizen residents of all countries"... you are implying Area C exists within a country called Israel. It doesn't. Area C is illegally occupied territory, and the Arab civilians living there are not the non-citizen residents; that would be the Jews. Again.

Why are you obsessed with placing Jewish interests over US interests?

In many areas the two are one and the same.
Why are you so antipatetic towards America's self interest:
"This was done largely to facilitate western control of Arab oil resources and stimulate arms sales, primarily in the US and UK."

Define "America's self interest."

Was the cover-up of Israel's deliberate attack on the USS Liberty in 1967 in the self-interest of all US citizens or only elite Americans hoping to profit from the crimeUSS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia?

 

[SAYIT]

Do you know enough History to realize that when Chomsky was a young man Zionism meant opposition to a Jewish state? That it wasn't until 1942 that the Zionist movement came out officially in favor of a Jewish state?

"America's oil interests" refers to US control over who receives Middle East oil and how much they are entitled to. This has been true since the 1950s when the US supplied all its own domestic oil needs.

Those like Chomsky realized a Jewish state would be used as a cop on the beat to enforce "America's oil interests", and such a state would be discriminatory and racist.

I need to know where you get the crack you've been smokin'.
BTW, you do realize that those hapless "Palestinians didn't become "Palestinians" until 1964 and when registering those would-be "Palestinians" as refugees in 1948 the UN only required proof of 2 years of residency, right Princess?

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'Zionism as an organized movement is generally considered to have been fathered by Theodor Herzl in 1897; however the history of Zionism began earlier and related to Judaism and Jewish history. The Hovevei Zion, or the Lovers of Zion, were responsible for the creation of 20 new Jewish settlements in Palestine between 1870 and 1897.[1]

Before the Holocaust the movement's central aims were the creation of a Jewish National Home and cultural centre in Palestine by facilitating Jewish migration. After the Holocaust, the movement focussed on creation of a "Jewish state" (usually defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority), attaining its goal in 1948 with the creation of Israel.'

"QUESTION: Does Zionism have anything to do with the fate of the Palestinians?
CHOMSKY: This is a very complex problem. It depends on what you mean by Zionism. I was a Zionist activist in my youth. For me, Zionism meant opposition to a Jewish state. The Zionist movement did not come out officially in favor of a Jewish state until 1942.

"Before this it was merely the intent of the Zionist leadership..."

Israel in Global Context, Noam Chomsky interviewed by Ludwig Watzal

Just Chumpsky's opinion which is refuted by the facts. He may not know much but he sure says it well.

 

[Saigon]

you are deflecting again typical of the islamo nazi approach Your comment regarding the Crusades is silly I did not mention LOTS OF AGGRESSION in the history of the world I am fully aware of the nature of islamo nazi revisionist history which is generally "NOBLE MUSLIMS SAVE THE WORLD" and VICIOUS CRUSADERS FIGHT NOBLE MUSLIMS" I learned that version from scores of muslims I encountered in my youth-----you professionals in the US for -----continued professional training They were all TOP NOTCH students from their countries and had learned the islamic version of history TO PERFECTION Do you have pictures of noble scimitar bearing MUJAJADEEN astride horses decorating the walls of your living room?

if you wish to talk about the crusades-----go right ahead----I might join the conversation

No one is really sure when or even if CONSTANTINE converted to christianity His mother HELENE was the ardent christian and his grandson codified the oppressive laws that governened anyone who resisted conversion to christianity and which are the model for both DHIMMIA and THE NUREMBURG CODE try to learn some real history

Rosie -

With the best will in the world - this is just gibbierish. It makes no sense at all.

If you wish to repost it as something coherent, I will take a look at it.

btw. Don't you think it is ather funny that you accuse ME of deflecting - and then go on some bizarre rant about me supporting the Mujahadeen!!!

 

[Saigon]

both Jew and NonJew were called Palestinian until 1967 when Yassar Arafat created the mentality that this was an "arab only" designation

Really?

So Jewish Israelis did not call themselves 'Israeli'?

Keep in mind that there is a big difference between what the UK or people at the League of Nations call people, and what they call themselves.

You make a couple of good points in our post - but this is not one of them, as I am sure you realise yourself.

 

[Roudy]

both Jew and NonJew were called Palestinian until 1967 when Yassar Arafat created the mentality that this was an "arab only" designation

Really?

So Jewish Israelis did not call themselves 'Israeli'?

Keep in mind that there is a big difference between what the UK or people at the League of Nations call people, and what they call themselves.

You make a couple of good points in our post - but this is not one of them, as I am sure you realise yourself.

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

The use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab group is only a modern political creation without any historic or ethnic grounds, and did not indicate any people before 1967. An Arab writer and journalist declared:

"There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough".

 

[Roudy]

both Jew and NonJew were called Palestinian until 1967 when Yassar Arafat created the mentality that this was an "arab only" designation

Really?

So Jewish Israelis did not call themselves 'Israeli'?

Keep in mind that there is a big difference between what the UK or people at the League of Nations call people, and what they call themselves.

You make a couple of good points in our post - but this is not one of them, as I am sure you realise yourself.

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

The use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab group is only a modern political creation without any historic or ethnic grounds, and did not indicate any people before 1967. An Arab writer and journalist declared:

"There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough".

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".
- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -

"As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants".
- An "ex-Palestinian" Arab -

 

[P F Tinmore]

Chumpsky makes a vald point (even a blind squirel stumbles across the occasional berry) but as is his penchant, adds an anti-American twist.
In this case, "America's oil interests" is made to sound like "evil America" when the fact is the world depends on a steady stream of affordable oil. Protecting the Mideast conduit falls on the US because nobody else on the planet can do it and if we can use Israel in any way, we should do so.

Do you know enough History to realize that when Chomsky was a young man Zionism meant opposition to a Jewish state? That it wasn't until 1942 that the Zionist movement came out officially in favor of a Jewish state?

"America's oil interests" refers to US control over who receives Middle East oil and how much they are entitled to. This has been true since the 1950s when the US supplied all its own domestic oil needs.

Those like Chomsky realized a Jewish state would be used as a cop on the beat to enforce "America's oil interests", and such a state would be discriminatory and racist.

I need to know where you get the crack you've been smokin'.
BTW, you do realize that those hapless "Palestinians didn't become "Palestinians" until 1964 and when registering those would-be "Palestinians" as refugees in 1948 the UN only required proof of 2 years of residency, right Princess?

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'Zionism as an organized movement is generally considered to have been fathered by Theodor Herzl in 1897; however the history of Zionism began earlier and related to Judaism and Jewish history. The Hovevei Zion, or the Lovers of Zion, were responsible for the creation of 20 new Jewish settlements in Palestine between 1870 and 1897.[1]

Before the Holocaust the movement's central aims were the creation of a Jewish National Home and cultural centre in Palestine by facilitating Jewish migration. After the Holocaust, the movement focussed on creation of a "Jewish state" (usually defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority), attaining its goal in 1948 with the creation of Israel.'

"Palestinians didn't become "Palestinians" until 1964 and when registering those would-be "Palestinians" as refugees in 1948 the UN

How did the UN register Palestinians in 1948 when there were no Palestinians until 1964?

You are confused.

 

[irosie91]

Do you know enough History to realize that when Chomsky was a young man Zionism meant opposition to a Jewish state? That it wasn't until 1942 that the Zionist movement came out officially in favor of a Jewish state?

"America's oil interests" refers to US control over who receives Middle East oil and how much they are entitled to. This has been true since the 1950s when the US supplied all its own domestic oil needs.

Those like Chomsky realized a Jewish state would be used as a cop on the beat to enforce "America's oil interests", and such a state would be discriminatory and racist.

I need to know where you get the crack you've been smokin'.
BTW, you do realize that those hapless "Palestinians didn't become "Palestinians" until 1964 and when registering those would-be "Palestinians" as refugees in 1948 the UN only required proof of 2 years of residency, right Princess?

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'Zionism as an organized movement is generally considered to have been fathered by Theodor Herzl in 1897; however the history of Zionism began earlier and related to Judaism and Jewish history. The Hovevei Zion, or the Lovers of Zion, were responsible for the creation of 20 new Jewish settlements in Palestine between 1870 and 1897.[1]

Before the Holocaust the movement's central aims were the creation of a Jewish National Home and cultural centre in Palestine by facilitating Jewish migration. After the Holocaust, the movement focussed on creation of a "Jewish state" (usually defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority), attaining its goal in 1948 with the creation of Israel.'

"Palestinians didn't become "Palestinians" until 1964 and when registering those would-be "Palestinians" as refugees in 1948 the UN

How did the UN register Palestinians in 1948 when there were no Palestinians until 1964?

You are confused.

The UN did not "REGISTER" 'palestinians' they aided "refugees" ----ie the arabs that nobody wanted

 

[P F Tinmore]

I need to know where you get the crack you've been smokin'.
BTW, you do realize that those hapless "Palestinians didn't become "Palestinians" until 1964 and when registering those would-be "Palestinians" as refugees in 1948 the UN only required proof of 2 years of residency, right Princess?

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'Zionism as an organized movement is generally considered to have been fathered by Theodor Herzl in 1897; however the history of Zionism began earlier and related to Judaism and Jewish history. The Hovevei Zion, or the Lovers of Zion, were responsible for the creation of 20 new Jewish settlements in Palestine between 1870 and 1897.[1]

Before the Holocaust the movement's central aims were the creation of a Jewish National Home and cultural centre in Palestine by facilitating Jewish migration. After the Holocaust, the movement focussed on creation of a "Jewish state" (usually defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority), attaining its goal in 1948 with the creation of Israel.'

"Palestinians didn't become "Palestinians" until 1964 and when registering those would-be "Palestinians" as refugees in 1948 the UN

How did the UN register Palestinians in 1948 when there were no Palestinians until 1964?

You are confused.

The UN did not "REGISTER" 'palestinians' they aided "refugees" ----ie the arabs that nobody wanted

And this is relevant how?

 

[ima]

So who gave Israel the right to exist?

 

[georgephillip]

So who gave Israel the right to exist?

G-d did it, for as long as the collection plate stays full.

 

[irosie91]

I assume that most people who post here frequnetly are adults---and probably adults at least over the age of 40 since younger people tend to have OTHER things to do Yet so many of the posters----eg Ima, georgie----write the kind of comments one expects from the not so bright kids of the neighborhood who spend their time on street corners attempting to establish their personal being thru vulgarity and crude behavior -----I attended college in a rough city----long ago-----I and my fellow students walked thru the city to the various places where the scattered school buildings were located In those days on ELECTION DAYS and VIRTUALLY ALL PUBLIC holidays---the bars were closed ----the city drunks would be seen ---looking a big confused, the gutters and alleys near the bars They would belch out cynical vulgar remarks at the passing students. Whenever I read the posts of Ima or georgie----I am reminded of my school days and those silly frustrated inebriates

 

[ima]

I assume that most people who post here frequnetly are adults---and probably adults at least over the age of 40 since younger people tend to have OTHER things to do Yet so many of the posters----eg Ima, georgie----write the kind of comments one expects from the not so bright kids of the neighborhood who spend their time on street corners attempting to establish their personal being thru vulgarity and crude behavior -----I attended college in a rough city----long ago-----I and my fellow students walked thru the city to the various places where the scattered school buildings were located In those days on ELECTION DAYS and VIRTUALLY ALL PUBLIC holidays---the bars were closed ----the city drunks would be seen ---looking a big confused, the gutters and alleys near the bars They would belch out cynical vulgar remarks at the passing students. Whenever I read the posts of Ima or georgie----I am reminded of my school days and those silly frustrated inebriates

iro, so who gave Israel the right to exist?

 

[Saigon]

I assume that most people who post here frequnetly are adults---and probably adults at least over the age of 40 since younger people tend to have OTHER things to do Yet so many of the posters----eg Ima, georgie----write the kind of comments one expects from the not so bright kids of the neighborhood who spend their time on street corners attempting to establish their personal being thru vulgarity and crude behavior -----I attended college in a rough city----long ago-----I and my fellow students walked thru the city to the various places where the scattered school buildings were located In those days on ELECTION DAYS and VIRTUALLY ALL PUBLIC holidays---the bars were closed ----the city drunks would be seen ---looking a big confused, the gutters and alleys near the bars They would belch out cynical vulgar remarks at the passing students. Whenever I read the posts of Ima or georgie----I am reminded of my school days and those silly frustrated inebriates

I do agree with you on this Rosie - the level of literacy and politeness on these discussions is dreadful.

I have never understood the need for personal abuse, nor in particular the amount of vulgarity about ******* pigs and sucking cock that Roudy, in particular, seems to feel he needs.

It should be possible for people to disagree while still displaying a certain amount of dignity and self-respect.

I have Ima on Ignore mode - I reccommend this solution!

 

[Saigon]

Roudy -

If you genuinely do not understand the comments and quotes you have presented, I'll be happy to explain, however in this case I think we can assume that you understand it perfectly well yourself, and are simply pretending not to.

Do you really think you will fool anyone into believing that stuff?

No - neither do I.

 

[irosie91]

I assume that most people who post here frequnetly are adults---and probably adults at least over the age of 40 since younger people tend to have OTHER things to do Yet so many of the posters----eg Ima, georgie----write the kind of comments one expects from the not so bright kids of the neighborhood who spend their time on street corners attempting to establish their personal being thru vulgarity and crude behavior -----I attended college in a rough city----long ago-----I and my fellow students walked thru the city to the various places where the scattered school buildings were located In those days on ELECTION DAYS and VIRTUALLY ALL PUBLIC holidays---the bars were closed ----the city drunks would be seen ---looking a big confused, the gutters and alleys near the bars They would belch out cynical vulgar remarks at the passing students. Whenever I read the posts of Ima or georgie----I am reminded of my school days and those silly frustrated inebriates

iro, so who gave Israel the right to exist?

The RIGHT TO EXIST and to LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ----is addressed in the a famous Document written by the famous scholar THOMAS JEFFERSON in 1776----in Philadelphia, Pa. USA in english-----it is an INHERENT RIGHT ----according to Tom who was very tall and had red hair. His much shorter dark haired friend----John Adams, agreed. Abigail Adams insisted that women should also have rights which was as innovative an idea in Pennsylvannia of 1776 as is the concept that jews should have rights in islamic circles Thus the real issue in the Middle east as that as an INNOVATION jews living there began to assert "RIGHTS" to the amazment of muslims sometime in the 1800s which, interestingly enough----is actually when USA women began to increasingly assert rights. My grandmother was a bit active as a teenager in the UNIONIST movement in the USA She was born in 1899 in New York City-----and INTERESTINGLY was also a zionist----the right to vote was granted to women in 1920 ----the same year that my grandmother turned 21 She supported the unions, israel and the right to vote-----and has ASSERTED these concepts as INHERENT RIGHTS who gave you the right to bother people with your incessant worthless postings? ---the answer is YOU HAVE AN INHERENT RIGHT TO BE A PAIN IN THE NECK

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

If you genuinely do not understand the comments and quotes you have presented, I'll be happy to explain, however in this case I think we can assume that you understand it perfectly well yourself, and are simply pretending not to.

Do you really think you will fool anyone into believing that stuff?

No - neither do I.

The quotes speak for themselves. I didn't post them for an "explanation" from an ignoramus called Saigoon. They are by Arabs. If you don't like what they say or represent take it up with them!

 

[Saigon]

Roudy -

My assumption was that you were choosing not to understand the bleedingly obvious.

It seems I was right.

I don't know what you get our of presenting a position which has absolutely no intellectual merit whatsoever, but I hope its good!

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

My assumption was that you were choosing not to understand the bleedingly obvious.

It seems I was right.

I don't know what you get our of presenting a position which has absolutely no intellectual merit whatsoever, but I hope its good!

Wa? When one of the PLO officials says "the term Palestinian is a Zionist invention" or "suddenly one day in 1967 woke I woke up and instead of Jordanian i was called a Palestinian" needs an "interpretation"?

I'll take what the Arab leaders and historians of the time said about the "Palestinian people", than the delusional claims of an ignorant Internet imposter called Saigoon.

 

[Saigon]

Roudy -

It doesn't need an intepretation - it needs honesty.

Both statements seem fairly simple and straightforward to me, and I dare say to anyone else who actually has a genuine interest in the history.

I don't know whether you genuinely don't understand enough of the details to get this, or if you are just trying to create controversy where none exists - we've seen you do both on any number of threads.

If you want me to explain, I will do, but I will expect you to acknolwedge that you are wrong when I've done so.