Israel's "Right to Exist"?

[irosie91]

Lots of this discussion centers around SEMANTICS Israel has had an interest in establishing the idea that muslims should recognize the fact that they should not ATTACK ISRAEL which they have done for more than 100 years on the basis of the islamic concept that jews do not have a right to own land and establish a nation----that is ---what Israel really wants is that muslims give up the idea that "MUSLIMS HAVE A RIGHT TO DESTROY ISRAEL"-----but it is such a difficult idea to express as in "MUSLIMS RECOGNIZE THAT MUSLIMS DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SLIT THE THROATS OF JEWISH INFANTS AND TOSS BOMBS ON ISRAEL AND KILL ALL ISRAELIS" If Israel demended THAT ------Israel would be accused of trying to DESTROY ISLAAAAAAM

 

[ima]

Israel's right to exist is based on the same principle's as all other nations. The question is in itself stupid and juvenile.

iro said TJ gave them the right. By nations, do you mean existing nations, or that every sub-group of humans (like the kurds) has a right to a nation?

Another stupid question. Once the Kurds establish their nation, recognized by the international community, then it too will have a right to exist. The Palestinians have never been a "people" just a bunch of mixed Arab invadors from neighboring countries. They of all people, have the least of all "rights" to a nation.

Jews are a religion, not a different race.

So if me and a few friends make up a religion then go into Central Park and establish ourselves a nation for no matter how small a time before the cops come and kiss our asses, we will then have earned the right to exist?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I assume that most people who post here frequnetly are adults---and probably adults at least over the age of 40 since younger people tend to have OTHER things to do Yet so many of the posters----eg Ima, georgie----write the kind of comments one expects from the not so bright kids of the neighborhood who spend their time on street corners attempting to establish their personal being thru vulgarity and crude behavior -----I attended college in a rough city----long ago-----I and my fellow students walked thru the city to the various places where the scattered school buildings were located In those days on ELECTION DAYS and VIRTUALLY ALL PUBLIC holidays---the bars were closed ----the city drunks would be seen ---looking a big confused, the gutters and alleys near the bars They would belch out cynical vulgar remarks at the passing students. Whenever I read the posts of Ima or georgie----I am reminded of my school days and those silly frustrated inebriates

iro, so who gave Israel the right to exist?

The RIGHT TO EXIST and to LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ----is addressed in the a famous Document written by the famous scholar THOMAS JEFFERSON in 1776----in Philadelphia, Pa. USA in english-----it is an INHERENT RIGHT ----according to Tom who was very tall and had red hair. His much shorter dark haired friend----John Adams, agreed. Abigail Adams insisted that women should also have rights which was as innovative an idea in Pennsylvannia of 1776 as is the concept that jews should have rights in islamic circles Thus the real issue in the Middle east as that as an INNOVATION jews living there began to assert "RIGHTS" to the amazment of muslims sometime in the 1800s which, interestingly enough----is actually when USA women began to increasingly assert rights. My grandmother was a bit active as a teenager in the UNIONIST movement in the USA She was born in 1899 in New York City-----and INTERESTINGLY was also a zionist----the right to vote was granted to women in 1920 ----the same year that my grandmother turned 21 She supported the unions, israel and the right to vote-----and has ASSERTED these concepts as INHERENT RIGHTS who gave you the right to bother people with your incessant worthless postings? ---the answer is YOU HAVE AN INHERENT RIGHT TO BE A PAIN IN THE NECK

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists. It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

The right to self-determination - IHL

 

[Roudy]

iro, so who gave Israel the right to exist?

The RIGHT TO EXIST and to LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ----is addressed in the a famous Document written by the famous scholar THOMAS JEFFERSON in 1776----in Philadelphia, Pa. USA in english-----it is an INHERENT RIGHT ----according to Tom who was very tall and had red hair. His much shorter dark haired friend----John Adams, agreed. Abigail Adams insisted that women should also have rights which was as innovative an idea in Pennsylvannia of 1776 as is the concept that jews should have rights in islamic circles Thus the real issue in the Middle east as that as an INNOVATION jews living there began to assert "RIGHTS" to the amazment of muslims sometime in the 1800s which, interestingly enough----is actually when USA women began to increasingly assert rights. My grandmother was a bit active as a teenager in the UNIONIST movement in the USA She was born in 1899 in New York City-----and INTERESTINGLY was also a zionist----the right to vote was granted to women in 1920 ----the same year that my grandmother turned 21 She supported the unions, israel and the right to vote-----and has ASSERTED these concepts as INHERENT RIGHTS who gave you the right to bother people with your incessant worthless postings? ---the answer is YOU HAVE AN INHERENT RIGHT TO BE A PAIN IN THE NECK

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists. It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

The right to self-determination - IHL

Problem is the Palestinians aren't "a people". It's a fictitious name given to invading Arabs.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The RIGHT TO EXIST and to LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ----is addressed in the a famous Document written by the famous scholar THOMAS JEFFERSON in 1776----in Philadelphia, Pa. USA in english-----it is an INHERENT RIGHT ----according to Tom who was very tall and had red hair. His much shorter dark haired friend----John Adams, agreed. Abigail Adams insisted that women should also have rights which was as innovative an idea in Pennsylvannia of 1776 as is the concept that jews should have rights in islamic circles Thus the real issue in the Middle east as that as an INNOVATION jews living there began to assert "RIGHTS" to the amazment of muslims sometime in the 1800s which, interestingly enough----is actually when USA women began to increasingly assert rights. My grandmother was a bit active as a teenager in the UNIONIST movement in the USA She was born in 1899 in New York City-----and INTERESTINGLY was also a zionist----the right to vote was granted to women in 1920 ----the same year that my grandmother turned 21 She supported the unions, israel and the right to vote-----and has ASSERTED these concepts as INHERENT RIGHTS who gave you the right to bother people with your incessant worthless postings? ---the answer is YOU HAVE AN INHERENT RIGHT TO BE A PAIN IN THE NECK

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists. It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

The right to self-determination - IHL

Problem is the Palestinians aren't "a people". It's a fictitious name given to invading Arabs.

So says Israel's propaganda bullshit.

 

[Hossfly]

Roudy -

If you'd prefer to be wrong, that is fine with me.

If at some point you do genuinely want to understand the history, let me know, and I'll explain it to you.

You think Roudy made up those quotes?
You don't win a seegar today.

 

[ima]

The RIGHT TO EXIST and to LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ----is addressed in the a famous Document written by the famous scholar THOMAS JEFFERSON in 1776----in Philadelphia, Pa. USA in english-----it is an INHERENT RIGHT ----according to Tom who was very tall and had red hair. His much shorter dark haired friend----John Adams, agreed. Abigail Adams insisted that women should also have rights which was as innovative an idea in Pennsylvannia of 1776 as is the concept that jews should have rights in islamic circles Thus the real issue in the Middle east as that as an INNOVATION jews living there began to assert "RIGHTS" to the amazment of muslims sometime in the 1800s which, interestingly enough----is actually when USA women began to increasingly assert rights. My grandmother was a bit active as a teenager in the UNIONIST movement in the USA She was born in 1899 in New York City-----and INTERESTINGLY was also a zionist----the right to vote was granted to women in 1920 ----the same year that my grandmother turned 21 She supported the unions, israel and the right to vote-----and has ASSERTED these concepts as INHERENT RIGHTS who gave you the right to bother people with your incessant worthless postings? ---the answer is YOU HAVE AN INHERENT RIGHT TO BE A PAIN IN THE NECK

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists. It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

The right to self-determination - IHL

Problem is the Palestinians aren't "a people". It's a fictitious name given to invading Arabs.

Jews aren't a people either, it's a religion. Or are catholics a people too?

 

[Roudy]

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists. It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

The right to self-determination - IHL

Problem is the Palestinians aren't "a people". It's a fictitious name given to invading Arabs.

Jews aren't a people either, it's a religion. Or are catholics a people too?

Catholics defined them as a people, Muslims defined them as a people, Jesus and Mohamamd defined them as a people, Christians defined them as a people, the Nazis defined them as a people (before they committed genocide on them), and all civilizations, Romans, Greeks, and Persians, defined them as a people. You don't have the facts OR history on your side.

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

If you'd prefer to be wrong, that is fine with me.

If at some point you do genuinely want to understand the history, let me know, and I'll explain it to you.

You think Roudy made up those quotes?
You don't win a seegar today.

Hard to figure out what Saigoon means. One thing for sure, it doesn't like them quotes!

 

[Roudy]

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists. It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

The right to self-determination - IHL

Problem is the Palestinians aren't "a people". It's a fictitious name given to invading Arabs.

So says Israel's propaganda bullshit.

Are these Arab leaders and historians "part of Israel's propaganda"?

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".
- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -


"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

The use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab group is only a modern political creation without any historic or ethnic grounds, and did not indicate any people before 1967. An Arab writer and journalist declared:

"There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough".

 

[P F Tinmore]

Problem is the Palestinians aren't "a people". It's a fictitious name given to invading Arabs.

So says Israel's propaganda bullshit.

Are these Arab leaders and historians "part of Israel's propaganda"?

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".
- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -


"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

The use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab group is only a modern political creation without any historic or ethnic grounds, and did not indicate any people before 1967. An Arab writer and journalist declared:

"There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough".

No problem. Would you like me to post some Jews?

 

[Saigon]

Roudy -

If you'd prefer to be wrong, that is fine with me.

If at some point you do genuinely want to understand the history, let me know, and I'll explain it to you.

You think Roudy made up those quotes?
You don't win a seegar today.

No, the quotes are correct - though at least one of them was not made by the person he claims made it.

Anyone who follows this issue knows why the quotes were made, and what they refer to. I don't see anything weird, difficult or controversial there at all.

Whether Roudy genuinelly doesn't understand, or is pretending not to understand, I coudn't say.

Either way, I don't see much value in triumphing ignorance.

 

[Saigon]

Lots of this discussion centers around SEMANTICS

I agee that it does, but only amongst extremists.

I think it's particularly callous when people try to claim that people living in Turkey were Seljuks and Ottomans - without admitting that Seljuks and Ottomans are the forefathers or today's Turks.

Likewise, Canaanites, Philistines and so forth are the forefathers of today's Palestinians.

We can go around the world and find dozens of countries where the nation state did not exist for a millenium after people settled the land - Germany, Italy and Canada being examples.

When was the last time one of the extremists here claimed Canada didn't exist?

Everyone knows this, but dishonest people choose to distort it.

 

[docmauser1]

Likewise, Canaanites, Philistines and so forth are the forefathers of today's Palestinians.

Algerian palistanians, sudanese palistanians, egyptian palistanians, lebanese palistanians, syrian palistanians, iraqi palistanians, jordanians palistanians, etc., Philistines were everywhere, indeed. Any angry arab a palistanian, of course.

 

[ima]

Lots of this discussion centers around SEMANTICS

I agee that it does, but only amongst extremists.

I think it's particularly callous when people try to claim that people living in Turkey were Seljuks and Ottomans - without admitting that Seljuks and Ottomans are the forefathers or today's Turks.

Likewise, Canaanites, Philistines and so forth are the forefathers of today's Palestinians.

We can go around the world and find dozens of countries where the nation state did not exist for a millenium after people settled the land - Germany, Italy and Canada being examples.

When was the last time one of the extremists here claimed Canada didn't exist?

Everyone knows this, but dishonest people choose to distort it.

Canada is like Finland, a waste of wood.

Q: What is the difference between an empty stomach and a Finnish person who wants to ask something from a stranger?

A: You can actually hear the empty stomach.

 

[irosie91]

there is no evidence at all that philistines have any connection at all either genetically or culturally to today's Philistines As to GENETIC connection-----it really does not matter. Comments regarding this issue are made by idiots who have absolutely no notion about the subject of population genetics Of course ----if SAIGOOOON imagines he can exploit the "genetic connection arguement" for land ownership-----the world's problem is solved. Simply analyze everyone's DNA ---trace migration and distribute the world's population according to migration patterns-------and FORGET ABOUT countries and land purchase and language and culture ---etc etc

An interesting factoid is that in arab/muslim "culture" -----the claim of a genetic link to "AL NABI" or one of his depraved pals is socially so much a PLUS that there are people in every village who make such a claim and arab rulers routinely make it They are going to be damned pissed off at SAIGOON's inistence that they all GO BACK TO ARABIA

 

[P F Tinmore]

there is no evidence at all that philistines have any connection at all either genetically or culturally to today's Philistines As to GENETIC connection-----it really does not matter. Comments regarding this issue are made by idiots who have absolutely no notion about the subject of population genetics Of course ----if SAIGOOOON imagines he can exploit the "genetic connection arguement" for land ownership-----the world's problem is solved. Simply analyze everyone's DNA ---trace migration and distribute the world's population according to migration patterns-------and FORGET ABOUT countries and land purchase and language and culture ---etc etc

An interesting factoid is that in arab/muslim "culture" -----the claim of a genetic link to "AL NABI" or one of his depraved pals is socially so much a PLUS that there are people in every village who make such a claim and arab rulers routinely make it They are going to be damned pissed off at SAIGOON's inistence that they all GO BACK TO ARABIA

This whole discussion is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo irrelevant.

 

[irosie91]

there is no evidence at all that philistines have any connection at all either genetically or culturally to today's Philistines As to GENETIC connection-----it really does not matter. Comments regarding this issue are made by idiots who have absolutely no notion about the subject of population genetics Of course ----if SAIGOOOON imagines he can exploit the "genetic connection arguement" for land ownership-----the world's problem is solved. Simply analyze everyone's DNA ---trace migration and distribute the world's population according to migration patterns-------and FORGET ABOUT countries and land purchase and language and culture ---etc etc

An interesting factoid is that in arab/muslim "culture" -----the claim of a genetic link to "AL NABI" or one of his depraved pals is socially so much a PLUS that there are people in every village who make such a claim and arab rulers routinely make it They are going to be damned pissed off at SAIGOON's inistence that they all GO BACK TO ARABIA

This whole discussion is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo irrelevant.

I did not bring it up Population genetics is interesting but its usefulness in determining political realities is highly limited

 

[P F Tinmore]

there is no evidence at all that philistines have any connection at all either genetically or culturally to today's Philistines As to GENETIC connection-----it really does not matter. Comments regarding this issue are made by idiots who have absolutely no notion about the subject of population genetics Of course ----if SAIGOOOON imagines he can exploit the "genetic connection arguement" for land ownership-----the world's problem is solved. Simply analyze everyone's DNA ---trace migration and distribute the world's population according to migration patterns-------and FORGET ABOUT countries and land purchase and language and culture ---etc etc

An interesting factoid is that in arab/muslim "culture" -----the claim of a genetic link to "AL NABI" or one of his depraved pals is socially so much a PLUS that there are people in every village who make such a claim and arab rulers routinely make it They are going to be damned pissed off at SAIGOON's inistence that they all GO BACK TO ARABIA

This whole discussion is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo irrelevant.

I did not bring it up Population genetics is interesting but its usefulness in determining political realities is highly limited

Indeed, it is such a silly argument. Many Muslims and Jews moved to Palestine when they were kicked out of Spain in 1492. Does that mean that neither can call Palestine home?

 

[irosie91]

This whole discussion is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo irrelevant.

I did not bring it up Population genetics is interesting but its usefulness in determining political realities is highly limited

Indeed, it is such a silly argument. Many Muslims and Jews moved to Palestine when they were kicked out of Spain in 1492. Does that mean that neither can call Palestine home?

Palestine was PARTITIONED in 1948 because of emnity between muslims and jews----the emnity is based on the desire of muslims to impose the filth of shariah Sudan was partiitioned recently for the same reason India was partitioned in 1948 for the same reason In order to save the christians of Lebanon----it would be reasonable to partition Lebanon If Arabia were partitioned 1400 years ago------the christian, jewish, zoroastrian genocides there mignt not have occured In fact hundreds of millions of lives might have been saved if people were not subjected to genocide under the laws you advocate

are you enjoying the current ongoing blood bath? The reason it is legal for sunnis to massacre shiites is the LEGAL CONCEPT OF TAKFIR in which muslims can declare 'THE OTHER" sect of islam to be NOT ISLAM at that point -----since the "others" are not muslims killing them becomes legal under shariah Have fun it is accelerating to YOUR DELIGHT