Israeli soldier talks of orders as murder

[Truthmatters]

Israel soldier calls order during Gaza assault 'murder'

AVIV: Toward the end of the operation, there was a plan to go into a very densely populated area inside Gaza City. In the briefings, they started to talk about orders for opening fire inside the city, because as you know they used a huge amount of firepower and killed a huge number of people along the way, so that we wouldn't get hurt and [Hamas militants] wouldn't fire on us.

At first the specified action was to go into a house . . . with an armored personnel carrier . . . and start shooting inside. . . . I call this murder. . . . We were supposed to go up floor by floor, and any person we identified, we were supposed to shoot. I initially asked myself, "Where is the logic?"

They said it was permissible because anyone who remained in the sector was in effect condemned, a terrorist, because they hadn't fled. I didn't really understand. . . . They don't have anywhere to flee to. . . . This scared me a bit.

I tried to exert some influence, insofar as is possible [in] my subordinate position, to change this. In the end the specification involved going into a house, operating megaphones and telling [the occupants], "Come on, everyone get out. You have five minutes. Leave the house. Anyone who doesn't get out gets killed."

I went to our soldiers and said, "The order has changed. We go into the house, they have five minutes to escape, we check each person who goes out . . . to see that he has no weapons, and then we start going into the house floor by floor to clean it out. . . . This means going into the house, opening fire at everything that moves, throwing a grenade, all those things."

One of my soldiers came to me and asked, "Why?" I said, "What isn't clear? We don't want to kill innocent civilians." He goes, "Yeah? Anyone who's in there is a terrorist, that's a known fact." I said, "Do you think the people there will run away? No one will run away." He says, "That's clear," and then his buddies join in, "We need to murder any person who's in there. Yeah, any person who's in Gaza is a terrorist," and all the other things that they stuff our heads with, in the media.

And then I try to explain to the guy that not everyone in there is a terrorist, and that after he kills, say, three children and four mothers, we'll go upstairs and kill another 20 or so people. . . . I tried to explain why we had to let them leave. . . . It didn't really help. This is really frustrating, to see that they understand that inside Gaza you are allowed to do anything you want, to break down doors for no other reason than it's cool.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

ROFLMNAO...

Well Yukon said the same thing and it turns out that she was just as full of shit as this 'Israeli Soldier'...

Now notice how she's implying the underlying concept of an 'Israeli Soldier' to force the inference that even the hardened heart of an Israeli Solider considers invading Gaza as MURDER!

Of course when ya read the supporting article, it turns out that it's the same addle-minded leftist drivel that Yukon was trotting out in the "MURDER IS MURDER" thread.

Classic!

 

[mash107]

Just goes to show ya that governments everywhere are the enemy of liberty and human rights, not the supporter of them. We need to lose the ridiculous idea that government can help you in anyway whatsoever.

 

[driveby]

Launching rockets into towns and walking into cafe's with C-4 strapped to your chest is not murder, that's freedom fighting !

 

[Kalam]

Rationalize away, mind-slaves.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGITh9HPJ7g]YouTube - Israeli soldiers say killing of civilians 'allowed' - 19 March 09[/ame]

 

[Shogun]

kinda like killing arab toddlers and sniping scared mothers and their kids is "DEFENSE", eh?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

kinda like killing arab toddlers and sniping scared mothers and their kids is "DEFENSE", eh?

Well when Arab terrorists hide behind Toddlers, they risk the lives of those toddlers... and when woman, many of whom are Mother's, laydown with Arab terrorists, or otherwise adhere to and reside with or in the proximity OF Arab Terrorists, the assertion that they're 'innocent' is absurd beyond measure.

Responsibility for the deaths of Arab children falls DIRECTLY and unavoidably TO THE ARAB PARENTS WHO EITHER LIVE WITH OR AROUND ARAB TERRORISTS...

While I feel sorry for these kids and I'd prefer that their parents had some understand of inalienable human rights and their responsibility inherent in their rights, thus recognize that where they adhere to Arab Terrorism they forfeit their rights and endager the safety and security of their children. But I don't get to make decisions for Arab terrorists... and Arab terrorists are going to be held accountable for their ridiculous usurpation of the rights of innocent people and their children are going to suffer greatly as a result.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/world/middleeast/20gaza.html?scp=2&sq=gaza accounts&st=cse

Now testimony is emerging from within the ranks of soldiers and officers alleging a permissive attitude toward the killing of civilians and reckless destruction of property that is sure to inflame the domestic and international debate about the army’s conduct in Gaza. On Thursday, the military’s chief advocate general ordered an investigation into a soldier’s account of a sniper killing a woman and her two children who walked too close to a designated no-go area by mistake, and another account of a sharpshooter who killed an elderly woman who came within 100 yards of a commandeered house.

When asked why that elderly woman was killed, a squad commander was quoted as saying: “What’s great about Gaza — you see a person on a path, he doesn’t have to be armed, you can simply shoot him. In our case it was an old woman on whom I did not see any weapon when I looked. The order was to take down the person, this woman, the minute you see her. There are always warnings, there is always the saying, ‘Maybe he’s a terrorist.’ What I felt was, there was a lot of thirst for blood.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/world/middleeast/21gaza.html?scp=3&sq=gaza accounts&st=cse

The soldier was quoted as saying that the rabbis had “brought in a lot of booklets and articles,” adding, “their message was very clear: We are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle. God brought us back to this land, and now we need to fight to expel the non-Jews who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land.”

He said that as a commander, he had tried to explain to his men that “not everyone who is in Gaza is Hamas,” and that “this war was not a war for the sanctification of the holy name, but rather one to stop the Qassam rockets.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/weekinreview/22BRONNER.html?scp=4&sq=gaza accounts&st=cse

Dany Zamir, the director of the one-year premilitary course who solicited the testimonies and then leaked them, leading to a promise by the military to investigate, is quoted in the transcripts as expressing anguish over the growing religious nationalist elements of the military.
“If clerics are anointing us with oil and sticking holy books in our hands, and if the soldiers in these units aren’t representative of the whole spectrum of the Jewish people, but rather of certain segments of the population, what can we expect?” he said. “To whom do we complain?”

For the first four decades of Israel’s existence, the army — like many of the country’s institutions — was dominated by kibbutz members who saw themselves as secular, Western and educated. In the past decade or two, religious nationalists, including many from the settler movement in the West Bank, have moved into more and more positions of military responsibility.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/world/middleeast/20gaza.html?scp=2&sq=gaza accounts&st=cse

Now testimony is emerging from within the ranks of soldiers and officers alleging a permissive attitude toward the killing of civilians and reckless destruction of property ...

Would someone snap a picture of a combatant in Gaza, who is NOT working for Israeli, that is NOT a civilian...

 

[Kalam]

Would someone snap a picture of a combatant in Gaza, who is NOT working for Israeli, that is NOT a civilian...

You'd think the bright green headbands and balaclavas would give it away... not to mention the camouflage and the Kalashnikovs.

The average IDF fuckwit apparently doesn't see any difference between Hamas and 3-year-olds.

"Freeze, terrorist!"

...

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

"Freeze, terrorist!"

...

ROFLMNAO...

Well those green head bands come off AWFULLY quick... as do the face masks... which are designed to hide their identity... this because THEY ARE CIVILIANS, LIVING IN AND AMONG OTHER REST OF THE CIVILIANS...

The guy in a wheel chair is an American whose name was Leon Klinghoffer... The Palestinian murdered him while he was on a Mediterranean Cruise with his wife...

Yeah these are a peaceful, innocent people... who train their children to hate Jews and whose only purpose is to murder innocent people.

The simple fact is:

THERE ARE NO INNOCENT PALESTINIANS.

 

[del]

 

[Kalam]

Well those green head bands come off AWFULLY quick... as do the face masks... which are designed to hide their identity... this because THEY ARE CIVILIANS, LIVING IN AND AMONG OTHER REST OF THE CIVILIANS...

Hamas soldiers jump into the nearest phone booth and change clothes à la Superman whenever the IDF shows up? Somehow I doubt that.

Not that it matters how they're dressed when Israel indiscriminately drops bombs, uses white phosphorous, and uses cluster munitions in densely populated urban areas...

The guy in a wheel chair is an American whose name was Leon Klinghoffer... The Palestinian murdered him while he was on a Mediterian Cruise with his wife...

Way to cite an event from over 20 years ago. What does that have to do with anything today? What the hell does a PLF hijacking have to do with Hamas or the IDF? The answer to both questions is nothing.

Yeah these are a peaceful, innocent people... who train their children to hate Jews and whose only purpose is to murder innocent people.

Inaccurate/sweeping generalizations. Go ahead and rationalize Israel's massacre of Palestinian civilians. Hopefully, it'll make you feel better while you try to pretend that they were all "terrorist supporters" or "human shields."

 

[Kalam]

THERE ARE NO INNOCENT PALESTINIANS.

You're a fucking moron.

 

[del]

THERE ARE NO INNOCENT PALESTINIANS.

You're a fucking moron.

there's a lot of that going around...

 

[rayboyusmc]

Responsibility for the deaths of Arab children falls DIRECTLY and unavoidably TO THE ARAB PARENTS WHO EITHER LIVE WITH OR AROUND ARAB TERRORISTS...

I know you don't think past the end of your bias, but maybe they really don't have a fucking choice of moving from their homes when terrorisits move in.

If they are killing civilians just for the hell of it, they are murderers just like the terrorists.

If they are put in situations where they can't tell the innocent civilian from the terrorists, then they are defending themselves.

Remember this is the same Pogo who says there are no liberal Americans.

 

[DiveCon]

if they are AIMING at terrorits and miss, that is one thing
if they are intentionally targetting civilains, that is something completely different

 

[Epsilon Delta]

if they are AIMING at terrorits and miss, that is one thing
if they are intentionally targetting civilains, that is something completely different

Or.........


What if they just don't care?

 

[DiveCon]

if they are AIMING at terrorits and miss, that is one thing
if they are intentionally targetting civilains, that is something completely different

Or.........


What if they just don't care?

thats not good either
but its still not as bad as intentionally targeting civilians

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Responsibility for the deaths of Arab children falls DIRECTLY and unavoidably TO THE ARAB PARENTS WHO EITHER LIVE WITH OR AROUND ARAB TERRORISTS...

I know you don't think past the end of your bias, but maybe they really don't have a fucking choice of moving from their homes when terrorisits move in.

If they are killing civilians just for the hell of it, they are murderers just like the terrorists.

If they are put in situations where they can't tell the innocent civilian from the terrorists, then they are defending themselves.

Remember this is the same Pogo who says there are no liberal Americans.

IF they are killing innocent people, they are murderers... Absolutely true.

If the terrorists are holding them hostage, preventing them from delcaring their neutrality and walking away from the certainty of the danger which inherently comes with being in the proximity of terrorists, then all possible measures should be taken to prevent the injury and death of those hostages, to the degree that is possible.

I submit that there are precious few of such in Palestine. Terrorists use as THEIR ONLY TACTICAL ADVANTAGE THE CONCEALMENT PROVIDED BY PHYSICAL ANONIMITY... they blend with civilians as cover and they use the certain injury of those civilians as a tool of propaganda...

Now I can't help but to notice that YOU, Our inhouse Marine groupie, AKA: The Pogue... is using the injury of civilians which were being used as C&C by the terrorists as a tool of propaganda WHICH SERVES THE INTERESTS OF THOSE TERRORISTS...

Now you're a citizen of the US... at least that's what you've claimed and you overtly promoting the interests of Islamic terrorists... with whom the US is presently at war...

According to the US constitution Pogue, you're a traitor... Now I stand as one witness of your having promoted the interests of our enemy... all you need is another to come forward and ACCORDING TO THE LETTER OF THE US CONSTITUTION, you're dead center subject to the penalties resulting from your actions.

Clearly, precedence protects you, as the 'interpretation' of that article has been rationalized to the point where it serves virtually no purpose.

But in point of fact, you're lending the benefit of the doubt to and otherwise publicly advocating for those who have and continue to execute mass murder on innocent men, woman and children.

You can sit there and bitch about the Israelis rading Gaza, but I NEVER SEE YOU BITCHING ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN INTRUSION INTO THE HOMES OF INNOCENT ISREALIS... WHERE THE ONLY POTENTIAL PURPOSE OF THOSE INTRUSIONS IS TO MURDER THE INNOCENT... WITH NO POTENTIAL EVEN POSSIBLE THAT THOSE INTRUSIONS SOUGHT OUT MILITARY COMBATANTS...

Now this is due to the certainty that no declared hostility existed between Gaza and Israel... so even Israeli Troops would be innocent, and that there WERE NO ISRAELI TROOPS PRESENT.

So don't even PRETEND to be standing up for principle here asswipe... you're position is NOTHING SHORT OF AN OVERT ADVOCACY FOR MASS MURDER OF INNOCENT ISREALIS...

There's nothing remotely American about YOU sis...