Israeli blockade of Gaza caused Oct 7th

[gipper]

This may be news to you, but to be a crime, an action would have to violate a law, and since the IDF has not struck any targets unless its lawyers have first certified it is in compliance with International Humanitarian Law no war crimes have been committed. Some people have such strong feelings about the fighting they try to alter the facts to fit their feelings, but these wild claims about war crimes or genocide to not stand up to a careful examination of the facts.

This will get you informed. Is this Israeli Jew an antisemite?

Hebrew University in Jerusalem (the other being Amos Goldberg) who have publicly declared that their Government is committing genocide to eliminate the Gazans, and Mordechai’s is the most extensively documented case on this matter that has yet been published, which he does at his online site, “Bearing Witness to the Israel-Gaza War”. His 124-page pdf with that title provides the documentation with 1,400 footnotes, and opens with a “Summary” which says:



The paragraphs of this executive summary contain the summary of much longer sections below, a paragraph for each section. Each section below includes dozens to hundreds of references that lead to the supporting evidence upon which I base my assessment. This version of the document greatly expands upon the previous version from June 18, 2024 by adding much content and evidence to existing sections, adding new sections (an appendix on methodology and a focus on the Oct.-Nov. 2024 campaign in northern Gaza) as well as responding to the discussion it initiated. Due to the sheer amount of material and the expansion of the war, I move in this version from updating the entire document at once to a model that updates sections separately, starting from the beginning of the document. …

Israel has actively attempted to cause the death of the civilian population of Gaza. Israel has created famine in Gaza as a de facto policy and used it as a weapon of war, resulting in the confirmed deaths of dozens of civilians (mainly children) from starvation. Israel created shortages of water, medicine and electricity. Israel has also dismantled Gaza’s health system and Gaza’s civilian infrastructure. As a result, more people die from treatable conditions and difficult medical procedures such as amputations and caesareans are conducted without anesthesia. The overall mortality in Gaza is unknown, but is almost certainly much higher than the official death toll.

Israeli discourse has de-humanized Palestinians to such an extent that the vast majority of Israeli Jews supports the aforementioned measures.
Executive summary, 29.11.24 | Witnessing the Gaza War

 

[eagle1462010]

I have let my eyes define what Genocide is and what Israelis doing is Genocide, we don't have time for technical niceties it needs calling out.

Where is your concern for the Christian Genocide Middle East.

 

[Lisa558]

Alright if I take a stab at these?

1. Egypt does not recognize the Hamas government (unsurprising), and claims that accepting a new government in Gaza undermines the Palestinian Authority and the hope for a united Palestine. Israel and the PA have an agreement concerning the management of the flow of goods (suspended since 2007), and Egypt is not willing to undermine that agreement. Egypt prefers that the PA monitor the Egypt/Gaza border on the Gaza side, but will accept some sort of international security force. Obviously, neither Hamas nor Israel is keen on the former for obvious reasons and has reservations about the latter for obvious reasons (waves at UNFIL).

Egypt allows far fewer goods and persons to cross the border than Israel does (remember that every state has the right to control its own border, its crossings, and who and what enters their territory), but Egypt permits a greater variety of those items on the "dual-use" list which Israel restricts.

I think the main reason why the OP, and others, places a higher standard on Israel than Egypt is related to Israel's (so-called) occupation. IF (and that's a big IF) Israel is occupying Gaza, then she does indeed have different obligations than Egypt does.

2. The "international community" (largely meaning the UN) has expanded the definition of "occupation" so they can accuse Israel of it. The former meaning of the term included: effective military control, performance of government functions and administration, maintaining public order, and upholding local law. Occupation typically ended with the return of territory to the rightful sovereign or the exercise of self-determination alongside treaty agreements with the former sovereign.

The expanded definition includes providing services (such as electricity, water) and normal, universal border controls.

The air and sea blockade, and the limited land blockade are not relevant to occupation. They exist SOLELY because of belligerence from a self-governing territory (not occupied) on a sovereign state in that sovereign state's territory. Had the belligerence not occurred, there would be no blockade. (You know, peace, prosperity, economic growth). The blockade is a direct and legal response to armed attacks on sovereign Israel after the occupation ended.

All this is further complicated by the competition between Hamas and the PA over control and government, with neither of them holding proper elections and neither of them capable of bringing the people of Gaza and the West Bank to proper statehood. Sigh.

3. Again, its an expansion of legal definitions. The refugees ethnically cleansed from the Arab lands are no longer considered refugees because those refugees fall under the typical definition. Arabs living in the Mandate for Palestine in 1948, however, have special rules applied to them that exist for no other population. If the Palestinian rules were applied to the Jews, there would be ~4 million Jewish refugees today (compared to zero claimed under normal rules). If the normal rules that apply to everyone else were applied to Arab "Palestinians" there would be about 200,000 Arab refugees today (compared to the ~11 million claimed under the special rules).

That's my take. Happy to expand or discuss with anyone.

Thanks so much. This was very educational. (How’d you get to be so smart?!)

The first answer was very informative and did indeed answer that question.

As for the two other answers, it seems it’s just a matter of semantics - where people with an agenda change the meaning of a word to advance their purpose and persuade others to believe a certain way. Another word that springs to mind is “genocide” - which now means killing, even inadvertently, of 0.5% of a population, when done by Jews.

 

[Lisa558]

Where is your concern for the Christian Genocide Middle East.

Or his concern for the Rohingya Muslims beimg slaughtered by the tens of thousands in Myanmar?

 

[gipper]

Or his concern for the Rohingya Muslims beimg slaughtered by the tens of thousands in Myanmar?

This should put you into the holiday spirit.

 

[eagle1462010]

This should put you into the holiday spirit.
View attachment 1055878

 

[toomuchtime_]

Lol. Look up war crimes you Zionist doofus.

If you don’t know Israel has committed massive war crimes, you know nothing.

Ok, so you are clearly unable to process the concept that if an act doesn't violate a law, it is not a crime.

 

[gipper]

Ok, so you are clearly unable to process the concept that if an act doesn't violate a law, it is not a crime.

Israel is defending itself right?

I should make clear that in my talks with the Israeli there are no immediate plans to improve the day-to-day ability to sustain life in Gaza. Israeli Air Force attacks still occur amid a lack of housing, food, and proper sanitation for the 2.25 million Gazan survivors of the 14-month Israeli response (which has killed at least 45,000 Gazans, including 31,500 women and children) to the Hamas attacks that killed 815 Israelis citizens and nearly four hundreds Israeli soldiers and security officials among 1,200 deaths... -Seymour Hersh.

 

[toomuchtime_]

This will get you informed. Is this Israeli Jew an antisemite?

Hebrew University in Jerusalem (the other being Amos Goldberg) who have publicly declared that their Government is committing genocide to eliminate the Gazans, and Mordechai’s is the most extensively documented case on this matter that has yet been published, which he does at his online site, “Bearing Witness to the Israel-Gaza War”. His 124-page pdf with that title provides the documentation with 1,400 footnotes, and opens with a “Summary” which says:



The paragraphs of this executive summary contain the summary of much longer sections below, a paragraph for each section. Each section below includes dozens to hundreds of references that lead to the supporting evidence upon which I base my assessment. This version of the document greatly expands upon the previous version from June 18, 2024 by adding much content and evidence to existing sections, adding new sections (an appendix on methodology and a focus on the Oct.-Nov. 2024 campaign in northern Gaza) as well as responding to the discussion it initiated. Due to the sheer amount of material and the expansion of the war, I move in this version from updating the entire document at once to a model that updates sections separately, starting from the beginning of the document. …

Israel has actively attempted to cause the death of the civilian population of Gaza. Israel has created famine in Gaza as a de facto policy and used it as a weapon of war, resulting in the confirmed deaths of dozens of civilians (mainly children) from starvation. Israel created shortages of water, medicine and electricity. Israel has also dismantled Gaza’s health system and Gaza’s civilian infrastructure. As a result, more people die from treatable conditions and difficult medical procedures such as amputations and caesareans are conducted without anesthesia. The overall mortality in Gaza is unknown, but is almost certainly much higher than the official death toll.

Israeli discourse has de-humanized Palestinians to such an extent that the vast majority of Israeli Jews supports the aforementioned measures.
Executive summary, 29.11.24 | Witnessing the Gaza War

And yet under international law, there is no genocide.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Israel is defending itself right?

I should make clear that in my talks with the Israeli there are no immediate plans to improve the day-to-day ability to sustain life in Gaza. Israeli Air Force attacks still occur amid a lack of housing, food, and proper sanitation for the 2.25 million Gazan survivors of the 14-month Israeli response (which has killed at least 45,000 Gazans, including 31,500 women and children) to the Hamas attacks that killed 815 Israelis citizens and nearly four hundreds Israeli soldiers and security officials among 1,200 deaths... -Seymour Hersh.

Of course, we all know that. As horrible as the war is, destroying the Palestinians military infrastructure, weapons and fighters is the only way to prevent the so called Palestinians from launching future attacks like Oct 7 massacre.

 

[Deadstick]

Where is your concern for the Christian Genocide Middle East.

The only Christian genocide i have seen was when your US proxy terrorists were murdering Christians in Syria, anything to say about that?

 

[Deadstick]

Of course, we all know that. As horrible as the war is, destroying the Palestinians military infrastructure, weapons and fighters is the only way to prevent the so called Palestinians from launching future attacks like Oct 7 massacre.

So after 14 months of bombing the Israelis have not destroyed HAMAS infrastructure in a piece of land that small, give me a break.

 

[Deadstick]

Israel is defending itself right?

I should make clear that in my talks with the Israeli there are no immediate plans to improve the day-to-day ability to sustain life in Gaza. Israeli Air Force attacks still occur amid a lack of housing, food, and proper sanitation for the 2.25 million Gazan survivors of the 14-month Israeli response (which has killed at least 45,000 Gazans, including 31,500 women and children) to the Hamas attacks that killed 815 Israelis citizens and nearly four hundreds Israeli soldiers and security officials among 1,200 deaths... -Seymour Hersh.

They are in a total state of denial even though their own eyes tell them something different, it's probably the only way they can cope with the true horror, just turn away and pretend it isn't happening, we saw the same thing with many Germans in the war some didn't care others said but we didn't know, wir habben es nicht gewusst.

 

[toomuchtime_]

So after 14 months of bombing the Israelis have not destroyed HAMAS infrastructure in a piece of land that small, give me a break.

And it will take at least another year, more likely two or three to destroy the rest of the 50 miles of tunnels the Palestinians have built under Gaza's cities, and it will take much longer to prevent the rebuilding of Hamas and the other terrorist groups. It will take as long as necessary until the Palestinians decide they would rather live in peace with Jews than go to war with them.

 

[Billo_Really]

good thing they aren't doing that!

According to every ******* country on the planet, that"s exactly what is going on!

 

[gipper]

They are in a total state of denial even though their own eyes tell them something different, it's probably the only way they can cope with the true horror, just turn away and pretend it isn't happening, we saw the same thing with many Germans in the war some didn't care others said but we didn't know, wir habben es nicht gewusst.

Agreed. The idiots supporting Israel’s genocide are in denial. Plus they’ve accepted the establishment narrative to hate Muslims and Arabs, while loving Israel unconditionally.

 

[rosends]

According to every ******* country on the planet, that"s exactly what is going on!

actually and provably untrue. Fortunately, you cursed and that, therefore, makes your rant more reasonable.

 

[Billo_Really]

If my family, friends, neighbors, and kindred had been treated the way the Palestinians have been treated since the mid 1940s, I'd be filled with pure anger and righteous indignation.

This fellow comes to mind:

Do I share the Palestinians religion or DNA? Nope. But I fully understand their willingness to fight for their existence. If I'd been kicked out of my own land ... I wouldn't feel very charitable.

I agree.

 

[Deadstick]

And it will take at least another year, more likely two or three to destroy the rest of the 50 miles of tunnels the Palestinians have built under Gaza's cities, and it will take much longer to prevent the rebuilding of Hamas and the other terrorist groups. It will take as long as necessary until the Palestinians decide they would rather live in peace with Jews than go to war with them.

I don't think the indicted war criminal Netanyahu has a time limit on his Genocide.

 

[Billo_Really]

Did you even read the article you posted?! From the article:

...Israel has the right to protect itself and its citizens from attacks by Palestinians who reside in the occupied territories.

This is not an "entitlement", but an inherent right. And it is shameful that you would try to remove this inherent right from Israel.

Now, if you want to use the term "self-defense" in the legal sense, you really should actually read the article as it more-or-less demonstrates the point I am trying to make and perfectly demonstrates how Israel is held to a different standard in law.

Noura's argument (basically) is that the term "self-defense" in a legal sense can not be used in conjunction with occupation. Military occupation, by definition, is the result of war fought and concluded, with the victor becoming the occupier in control of the territory. A State can't claim "self-defense" when it already controls the territory. It would be akin to defending yourself from yourself. In occupied territory, the occupier is obligated to preserve order, punish crime, and protect lives and property. Israel, then, according to Noura, is not defending herself, but simply policing her occupation.

Here's my issue with Noura's argument: It demonstrates, quite clearly, that Israel is NOT an occupying power.

1. It inverts occupier and occupied. The war in question did not start in 1967. It started in 1948 when Egypt invaded non-Egyptian territory and occupied it. Egypt was the occupier. Israel was the sovereign.
2. With the disengagement from Gaza in 2005, Israel ceded her right to control and police that territory. Israel no longer had the capacity to be the controlling and policing force in Gaza. By definition, this means there is no occupation, regardless of any nonsense about "effective control".
3. Since 2005, Israel has treated Gaza as a separate sovereign.

This is what it said ..

A state cannot simultaneously exercise control over territory it occupies and militarily attack that territory on the claim that it is “foreign” and poses an exogenous national security threat. In doing precisely that, Israel is asserting rights that may be consistent with colonial domination but simply do not exist under international law.