Israel Bombs Home of Gaza Pediatrician, Killing 9 of Her 10 Kids, in Latest Attack on Health Workers
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IM2
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Hamas has given up. Israel needs to stop what they are doing. You guys are why Israel has been able to do this kind of thing over the years. To you, they can never be wrong; they are always the poor innocents, but in this case, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Netanyahu got Hamas funding. Netanyahu expanded settlements illegally. Netanyahu allowed settler violence against Palestinians. All this is due to him, and this is why this mess is opposed by thinking human beings.
toomuchtime_
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Bullshit. Hamas has started five wars in the twenty years since Israel withdrew from Gaza, and according to its charters, 1988 and 2017, it will not stop attacking until Israel has been destroyed. The only way to end these wars is to end Hamas' ability to wage war which means to disarm Hamas and prevent it from rearming. Nothing less will do.
Shusha
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Okay. So let's take this sentence apart, because this is my complaint with the language you use to define and explore the issue. First, you claim "indiscriminate slaughter". I counter with "no evidence that Israel has been indiscriminate in its operations". Indiscriminate has a meaning, a specific meaning, in international law. That is, international law requires in armed conflict that the actors discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. In other words, actors must refrain from performing operations which fail to target a specific military objective. When you use that terminology, I have two choices as your reader. 1. I can assume that you understand the term, and are deliberately employing it, in which case, the convincing response would be to provide examples of operations conducted by Israel where there was no military objective and where Israel could not reasonably believe that there was a military objective. (Its not illegal to be wrong). 2. You don't understand the term, and are deliberately employing it to bring emotional overtones and exaggerations to "shore up" your argument. This is not convincing. Rather, it has the opposite effect. If your case was convincing you wouldn't need to bring in photos of starving Yemeni children to prove it. (Yes, I don't believe it was you who did this, I am using emotional appeal and exaggeration to make a point. See how that works? Though you will note that one of the other regulars did this very thing.)
Ah. You have downgraded "indiscriminate" to "gratuitous". Now you are claiming that the IDF operations are without purpose or reason. Yet I have already expressed, on numerous occasions, the purpose for Israel's military operations in Gaza:
In order to prevent future attacks in sovereign Israel, on Israeli citizens, and specifically to prevent further hostage taking, Israel's war goals are:
1. To dismantle Hamas as a both a government and as a military force;
2. To destroy all military infrastructure;
3. To retrieve the hostages
Again, I have seen no evidence of Israel conducting operations which fall outside these parameters. And again, you seem to be using language deliberately intended to embellish.
I must condemn the practice ONLY if there is no military objective embedded in whatever location you choose to call attention to (hospitals, schools, mosques, humanitarian aide facilities, residential homes), AND no reasonable expectation of military objectives could be evaluated. I have seen no evidence that Israel conducts operations without a military objective. (Again, not illegal to be wrong.)
The presence of non-combatants does not render a location immune. More importantly, do you see how the attempt by Hamas to lure the Western public and international bodies into that false belief undermines international law intended to protect civilians? It evades the responsibility that governments have over their own citizens under conditions of armed conflict. Why have you fallen for it?
"2000lb bombs" is another term which is poorly understood and used to create a specific emotional trigger. Some "2000lb" bombs are extremely precise munitions intended to penetrate subterranean locations and reinforced buildings (such as those used to eliminate Mohammed Sinwar under the European hospital). They cause very little damage on the surface. Other "2000lb bombs" have a surface effect with a specific blast radius. These can be very precisely guided to an exact location with the addition of guidance systems. The use of each of these specific munitions is considered for each strike, and vetted by both military and independent legal advisors.
So again, this terminology is unconvincing. When someone posts about "2000lb bombs", my first response is to investigate the specific incident to determine the conditions of that specific incident.
Typically, according to my understanding, large-scale surface munitions are only used in areas where the civilians have been evacuated, and still with a specific military purpose and objective.
Now, lest anyone jump on me for being too analytical and failing to embrace the absolutely horrific cost of war on civilians and innocents, let me say that I am as tortured by it as any of you. I am a religious person, and I believe in the sanctity of all life. I also believe vehemently in the sometimes necessary application of force.
Shusha
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You know this reads as a threat to me, yes? A threat to Jews around the world. A threat that is already manifesting in the targeting and murder of Jews, as Jews. A threat where the murder of Jews is not only acceptable, but expected, anticipated, justified. In Belgium today there was a public street play reenacting and glorifying the October 7 atrocities.
For one who attempts to make some sort of distinction between Jews and "genocidal Zionist butchers", it feels awfully disingenuous for you to be warning me, and Jews, that our lives are in danger because of what Israel's current government may (or may not) be doing. It especially rubs raw that you point out the global population of Jews (still not recovered from pre-Holocaust numbers) and the global population of Muslims, which highlights to me both the umbrella religious nature of this conflict (Jews v. Muslims as opposed to Israel v. Palestine) and that the Jewish people are the vulnerable ethnic/religious group facing existential threat of genocide.
If you have any interest in a moral compass, I would suggest that you strongly stand up for de-conflating Jews with the actions of Israel's current government in this particular war.
Shusha
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This is not a difference of opinion or morality. This is a difference of observable, measurable facts.whatever you want to call the slaughtering. of mainly women and children in Gaza, (1) it is no war.
(1). “More women and children killed in Gaza by Israeli military than any other recent conflict in a single year”
EXCERPT “More women and children have been killed in Gaza by the Israeli military over the past year than the equivalent period of any other conflict over the past two decades, new Oxfam analysis has found.
I dispute the accuracy of the Gaza Ministry of Health numbers, thus I dispute the claim, "mainly of women and children in Gaza". Why do I dispute it?
- the disclaimer on the report from which Oxfam collected its data which reads: "Disclaimer: Figures that are yet-to-be verified by the UN are attributed to their source. Casualty numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health (MoH) and the Israeli authorities." Source.
- the inclusion of blatant, outright lies within the Oxfam report you claim to be authoritative such as, "Earlier this year, a study published in The Lancet estimated the true number of deaths in Gaza could be over 186,000, taking indirect deaths – for example, due to starvation and lack of health care – into consideration."
- the failure to distinguish in mortality reports between combatants and non-combatants. (Yes, women and children can be combatants).
- the revision/correction of the numbers by the Gaza Ministry of Health themselves, who removed over 3000 deaths from the reports. One source.
- third party analysis of Gaza Ministry of Health reports which demonstrate that men are recorded as women; men are recorded as children; deaths from natural causes and unrelated illnesses are recorded; deaths from prior wars are recorded; and other routine errors and inconsistencies. Source.
- third party analysis which reveals that 72% of casualties between the ages of 13 and 55 are male, strongly indicating the specific targeting of combatants or perceived combatants. (See previous sources).
- the failure to account for differences and inequalities in the conditions of armed conflict between the various compared comparisons, which are many, not the least of which is the active, international prevention of flight of refugees from the war.
I don't think that any realistic person expects to change the mind of anyone who strongly believes something no matter how many facts they are shown, new or old.
Therefore, I don't think that any number of additional widely accepted facts will get you to accept the fact that there is much more to the long anticipated 7 October attack / uprising than:
"Hamas attacked Israel for no reason and Israel is still defending itself"
I see no point in bringing you additional facts when you either ignore or evade discussing the ones I've already posted.
1. For example, it is a fact that members of the Netanyahu government knew of the Hamas attack / uprising over a year in advance and even withdrew troops from the Wall. (1)
Why?
2. It is also a fact that IDF is virtually the only military to deploy 2,000 pound bombs over crowded civilian neighborhoods where they kill the largest number of civilians possible.
Why?
3. Confirmation that it killing Palestinian civilians is IDF's objective is offered by Israeli general Gadi Eisenkot who admits that the Israeli M.O. is:
"—not to necessarily defeat the attackers, but to punish the entire population through the deliberate killing of civilians and destruction of civil infrastructure." (3)
The objective of Netanyahu and his right wing extremists is to simply keep killing as many Palestinians as they can get away with:
-“Trump said to have told Netanyahu to end Gaza war, attacking Iran off limits for now”
Trump said to have told Netanyahu to end Gaza war, attacking Iran off limits for now
In call on Monday, US president also reportedly told PM that threats to strike Iran 'aren't helping' nuclear talks; CENTCOM chief says White House has 'wide range of options' if negotiations fail
www.timesofisrael.com
EXCERPT “Netanyahu has so far refused to negotiate a Gaza truce-hostage deal that would permanently end the fighting in the Strip — a red line for him and his far-right coalition partners.” CONTINUED
I see no point in posting additional facts as long as you reject the realities I've already related over the last month or so
(1). "New York Times report says Israel knew about Hamas attack over a year in advance"
New York Times report says Israel knew about Hamas attack over a year in advance
The New York Times is reporting Israel knew about Hamas attack plans over a year before the Oct. 7 operation, but dismissed them as “aspirational."
apnews.com
EXCERPT "Israel’s military was aware of Hamas ' plan to launch an attack on Israeli soil over a year before the devastating Oct. 7 operation that killed hundreds of people, The New York Times reported Friday.
It was the latest in a series of signs that top Israeli commanders either ignored or played down warnings that Hamas was plotting the attack, which triggered a war against the Islamic militant group that has devastated the Gaza Strip.
The Times said Israeli officials were in possession of a 40-page battle plan, code-named “Jericho Wall,” that detailed a hypothetical Hamas attack on southern Israeli communities." CONTINUED
(2). "UNPRECEDENTED HARM TO CIVILIANS IN GAZA"
Explosive Weapons Monitor
The Explosive Weapons Monitor is a civil society initiative that conducts research and analysis on harms from and practices of explosive weapon use in populated areas for the International Network on Explosive Weapons (INEW).
explosiveweaponsmonitor.org
"DEATH AND INJURY FROM THE USE OF AIR-DROPPED EXPLOSIVE WEAPONS IN DENSELY-POPULATED GAZA"
EXCERPT "The foreseeable impacts on civilians of blast and fragmentation from explosive weapons – where civilians are killed and damage and destruction of civilian infrastructure leads to long-term consequences for entire communities – are well-documented.
The current conflict in Gaza is a stark example of the severity of these consequences. As civilians are killed at a nearly unprecedented rate, airstrikes and the use of other explosive weapons by the IDF continue." CONTINUED
(3). “For Israel, Civilian Casualties Aren’t an Accident”
“The Dahiya doctrine, expanded in Israel’s siege of Gaza, sees non-combatants as acceptable targets.”
For Israel, Civilian Casualties Aren’t an Accident
The Dahiya doctrine, expanded in Israel’s siege of Gaza, sees non-combatants as acceptable targets.
progressive.org
Shusha
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Seriously?! My posts #84 and #87 are extensive responses to your claims and arguments, with sources and evidence. To claim that my posts "ignore or evade" is disingenuous.
Shusha
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Okay. Let's break this one down. First, your source. The source you provided for this claim is an article presented by Explosive Weapons Monitor entitled, "Unprecedented Harm to Civilians in Gaza". Here's the quote from the article:
Given the heavy explosive payload of these bombs, they are not often the weapon-of-choice by militaries conducting operations in urban areas, and military analysts have been surprised by their use in Gaza given their effects. For example, the largest bombs used by the US and allied forces in the battle for Mosul were 500-pounds.
The source for that information is an article in the Financial Times entitled, "Military Briefing: The Israeli Bombs Raining Down on Gaza". And the relevant quote from this article:
In addition, Israel has used earth-shaking 2,000lb GBU-31 bombs, which are four times bigger than the 500lb bombs that were typically the largest ordnance used by allied forces in the battle for the Iraqi city of Mosul, military analysts said.
See how you have transformed the claim made in both of these articles? The articles say that the largest bombs used by the US and allied forces in Mosul were 500lbs. The articles do NOT say the IDF is (virtually) the only military to 2000lb bombs over civilian areas. A simple google search turns up many examples of the US and other countries use of 2000lb bombs in civilian areas, including in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are reasons for using various types of munitions under different military conditions and necessities.
EVEN IF THE IDF IS THE ONLY STATE TO EMPLOY 2000LB BOMBS IN CIVILIAN AREAS (AND IT IS NOT!) the reason is given in the very same source article:
"The only reason I can think of why they have been used is that the IDF has been trying to collapse Hamas' tunnel network." Marc Garlasco, a military advisor for Dutch organization PAX and former Pentagon intelligence analysist.
You've also added a condition to your "fact" statement which is, "they kill the largest number of civilians possible". Your intent is unclear.
Let's correct your "fact".
2. The IDF has deployed munitions commonly referred to as "2000lb bombs" in civilian neighborhoods during its conduct of the Gaza War.
There. Much better. We agree. The IDF has indeed deployed such munitions. I will further add:
- targeting a valid military objective
- after conducting a proportionality analysis
- with intended goal(s)
- using munitions appropriate for the goal(s)
- after the civilian population has been called to evacuate
Last edited:
Because I've seen and heard what 2,000 bombs do in Laos, you will never convince me or anyone else familiar with them that IDF's deployment of 2,000 pound bombs on over-crowded, starving, traumatized and homeless refugees is anything but criminal sadism.
Re:
1. "targeting a valid military objective"
To IDF and its apologists, children at play are "valid military objectives" (1)
2. "after conducting a proportionality analysis"
By a military infamous for murdering mainly women and children?
3. "with intended goal(s)"
Of complete extermination, expulsion and expansionism.
4. "using munitions appropriate for the goal(s)
When the goal(s) are genocide.
5. "after the civilian population has been called to evacuate"
Right, evacuate to a "safe zone" that is later bombed.
"Gaza 'humanitarian zone' struck almost 100 times since May, BBC Verify finds"
Gaza 'humanitarian zone' struck almost 100 times, BBC finds
The area in Gaza which Israel's military has told people to go to "for their safety" has been hit by 97 strikes since May, BBC Verify analysis has revealed.
www.bbc.com
Among the increasingly flimsy excuses for systematically exterminating Palestine's native residents is that IDF is targeting tunnels which are currently about the only way to get food and medicine past Israel's Starvation Blockade.
Earlier, you only cited the use by the US of 2,000 pound bombs in Mosul which is in no way as densely populated as Gaza's squalid refugee camps and the world's deadliest "Safe Zones".
I can think of no other even borderline legitimate military that deploys 2,000 pound bombs on starving, homeless, traumatized refugees.
If not the only military to deploy 2,000 lb bombs, Israel is the world's worst genocidal abuser of that ordinance
Attempting to excuse war crimes, human right's violations and what most of the rational and informed world regards as a genocide is only enabling the self destructive practices of Israel's far right wing.
A final and most significant fact is that Israel's far right wing has alienated its few remaining Allies at the same time the world's 1.8 Billion Muslims vastly outnumber the world's 18 Million Jews.
Essential to Israel's very survival is America's $ Trillions in "aid" and weaponry without which the Gaza genocide would not be possible. If the current trend continues, it's only a matter of time before more Americans reject funding a genocidal Netanyahu regime compelling and Israel will have to do what it has never done...... support its own genocide and expansionism.
“Israeli Forces Dropped 2,000-Pound Bombs on Gaza “Safe Zone,” Killing 90”
Israeli Forces Dropped 2,000-Pound Bombs on Gaza “Safe Zone,” Killing 90
At least one of the eight 2,000-pound bombs used in the massacre was made in the US.
truthout.org
EXCERPT “Israeli forces dropped eight tons of bombs on an area Israel labeled as a “humanitarian safe zone” in Gaza on Saturday, wielding explosives built to maximize destruction on an area sheltering hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have been forced to flee Israel’s genocidal campaign again and again.
According to The Wall Street Journal, the Israeli military dropped eight 2,000-pound bombs during its attack on Al-Mawasi on Saturday, striking civilian areas including a market, a soup kitchen and a water source. These bombs have the power to level entire neighborhoods or strike deeply into concrete bunkers, and humanitarian groups have said that using even one of these 2,000-pound (or smaller) bombs in civilian areas is a war crime.
In essence, Israel has deliberately trapped the majority of Gaza’s population into a small area and is now using its most destructive bombs there.” CONTINUED
(1). “Video Shows IDF Snipers Shooting Palestinian Children For Fun, But Facebook Won’t Let You Share It”
Shusha
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Sigh. Every time I post evidence and facts, you descend into a tantrum of blood libels. They are blood libels because they are falsehoods disseminated to demonize Israel (the Jewish people).
gipper
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We’re witnessing something unbelievably horrendous and appalling. No one in their right mind supports this horror.Because I've seen and heard what 2,000 bombs do in Laos, you will never convince me or anyone else familiar with them that IDF's deployment of 2,000 pound bombs on over-crowded, starving, traumatized and homeless refugees is anything but criminal sadism.
Re:
1. "targeting a valid military objective"
To IDF and its apologists, children at play are "valid military objectives" (1)
2. "after conducting a proportionality analysis"
By a military infamous for murdering mainly women and children?
3. "with intended goal(s)"
Of complete extermination, expulsion and expansionism.
4. "using munitions appropriate for the goal(s)
When the goal(s) are genocide.
5. "after the civilian population has been called to evacuate"
Right, evacuate to a "safe zone" that is later bombed.
"Gaza 'humanitarian zone' struck almost 100 times since May, BBC Verify finds"
Gaza 'humanitarian zone' struck almost 100 times, BBC finds
The area in Gaza which Israel's military has told people to go to "for their safety" has been hit by 97 strikes since May, BBC Verify analysis has revealed.
View attachment 1122328
Among the increasingly flimsy excuses for systematically exterminating Palestine's native residents is that IDF is targeting tunnels which are currently about the only way to get food and medicine past Israel's Starvation Blockade.
Earlier, you only cited the use by the US of 2,000 pound bombs in Mosul which is in no way as densely populated as Gaza's squalid refugee camps and the world's deadliest "Safe Zones".
I can think of no other even borderline legitimate military that deploys 2,000 pound bombs on starving, homeless, traumatized refugees.
If not the only military to deploy 2,000 lb bombs, Israel is the world's worst genocidal abuser of that ordinance
Attempting to excuse war crimes, human right's violations and what most of the rational and informed world regards as a genocide is only enabling the self destructive practices of Israel's far right wing.
A final and most significant fact is that Israel's far right wing has alienated its few remaining Allies at the same time the world's 1.8 Billion Muslims vastly outnumber the world's 18 Million Jews.
Essential to Israel's very survival is America's $ Trillions in "aid" and weaponry without which the Gaza genocide would not be possible. If the current trend continues, it's only a matter of time before more Americans reject funding a genocidal Netanyahu regime compelling and Israel will have to do what it has never done...... support its own genocide and expansionism.
“Israeli Forces Dropped 2,000-Pound Bombs on Gaza “Safe Zone,” Killing 90”
Israeli Forces Dropped 2,000-Pound Bombs on Gaza “Safe Zone,” Killing 90
At least one of the eight 2,000-pound bombs used in the massacre was made in the US.
EXCERPT “Israeli forces dropped eight tons of bombs on an area Israel labeled as a “humanitarian safe zone” in Gaza on Saturday, wielding explosives built to maximize destruction on an area sheltering hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have been forced to flee Israel’s genocidal campaign again and again.
According to The Wall Street Journal, the Israeli military dropped eight 2,000-pound bombs during its attack on Al-Mawasi on Saturday, striking civilian areas including a market, a soup kitchen and a water source. These bombs have the power to level entire neighborhoods or strike deeply into concrete bunkers, and humanitarian groups have said that using even one of these 2,000-pound (or smaller) bombs in civilian areas is a war crime.
In essence, Israel has deliberately trapped the majority of Gaza’s population into a small area and is now using its most destructive bombs there.” CONTINUED
(1). “Video Shows IDF Snipers Shooting Palestinian Children For Fun, But Facebook Won’t Let You Share It”
One consequence is the West and particularly the US, have lost whatever moral authority they had left. The American ideal is completely dead.
Meathead
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Shusha
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Did you want to talk about the strike that took out Mohammed Deif? Okay. Let's.
The IDF has deployed munitions commonly referred to as "2000lb bombs" in civilian neighborhoods during its conduct of the Gaza War.
- targeting a valid military objective
- Mohammed Deif - who was one of the top two military objectives
- Rafi Salama - another very high level military objective
- a dozen or so Hamas members
- in a compound near or just outside the "safe zone"
- Hamas unlawfully placed military objectives within or near the "safe zone"
- acting on precise intelligence
- after conducting a proportionality analysis
- yes, incidental harm to civilians was anticipated during this strike
- death toll, combined combatants and non-combatants, was ~90 (according to GMoH)
- with intended goal(s)
- to eliminate above-mentioned high level targets
- using munitions appropriate for the goal(s)
- I haven't seen a detailed enough report to determine this, and I haven't the necessary military expertise to understand use of certain munitions, but my educated guess would be either to destroy the compound in its entirety or to reach an underground bunker or tunnel
- I can find no evidence that eight 2000lb bombs were used in this operation. Media reporting varies from one to the eight mentioned in the WSJ. The WSJ does not provide a source or detailed information
- a precision-guided munition was used
- after the civilian population has been called to evacuate
- this is one of the few cases, from my study, where there was no advance warning call to evacuate
Shusha
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Seriously? Is this what you imagine the tunnels are used for? Angels scurrying bundles of food? An underground railway of a humanitarian mission? See, this is where I doubt your sincerity.
Shusha
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This threat again?
I assure you, we are quite aware of the existential threat posed by Muslims against the Jewish people. It is beyond me why you would want to point out to me every other day that the Jewish people are unsafe in the world. It isn't a good look.
gipper
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gipper
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