Islam is evil...

[Said1]

People who say, "Well, Christianity isn't violent now, but Islam is," aren't making a lot of sense to me. Christianity has been brutally violent. Crusades? The Inquisition, anyone? Colonialism? Without the arrogant our-religion-is-better-than-yours feeling that Christianity gave them, the European nations would lost a major justification for their brutal colonial projects around the world. Look at all the cultures around the world whose native religions and ideas were steamrollered by missionaries. Think of Hawaii, where surfing culture was killed off by prudish Christians who thought bathing suits should start at the ankles. If you add up all the pain caused by these forms of Christian violence and oppression, it makes 9/11 look like a drop in the bucket.

Missionaries and colonialism are the same? The Crusades were two-fold, at first called to protect the holy sites, then to fend off approaching Muslims. I think you'll agree that there was a back and forth invade conquer sort of mind set on both sides, right up to the siege of Vienna.

 

[Mariner]

of colonialism, you will see that "bringing the word of God to the savages" was one of the main justifications used for colonialism. If people had emphasized the other side of Jesus' teaching--respect for others, and the equality of all people before God--then Christianity might have come out against colonialism, and sought to restrain its excesses.

As for Islam/Christianity, I'm no expert, and have been reading heavily. My current understanding is that Christians in Europe found it strange that they were celebrating a religion with origins far away. They began to make up stories about biblical characters traveling to Europe. Then the Pope, in 1196, announced a pilgramage to Jerusalem with the intent of taking the city back. Pilgramage became Crusade with the help of (fake) anti-Muslim propoganda. There is a very moving passage in the biography of a knight who wondered about killing in the name of Christ, as it seemed to conflict with basic Christian thinking. But theologians helped out with the necessary justifications for a holy war (one could call it a jihad) against the Muslims. There were no concerns at that time about Muslim conquests into Europe. The Muslim empire thought Europe was cold and backwards, and had little interest. The crusaders bragged about killing innocent Muslims so that their horses were up to their knees in blood. A pretty image.

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Missionaries and colonialism are the same? The Crusades were two-fold, at first called to protect the holy sites, then to fend off approaching Muslims. I think you'll agree that there was a back and forth invade conquer sort of mind set on both sides, right up to the siege of Vienna.

Plus, violence is codified within islam in a way in which it is not in Christianity.

 

[Said1]

of colonialism, you will see that "bringing the word of God to the savages" was one of the main justifications used for colonialism. If people had emphasized the other side of Jesus' teaching--respect for others, and the equality of all people before God--then Christianity might have come out against colonialism, and sought to restrain its excesses.

You will also see colonists favoring minority religious groups to gain concessions and control and also encouraging them to rise up aginst the majority in power. Look at Somalia, Djibouti, your India, ALL over the Middle East and so on. These people were not converted, just used, which in short, resulted in increased violence and hatred towards one another.

SE Asia is a good example of what you speak, although the french (Catholics) used religious conversion moreso than any other colonial power. The Spanish to a certain degree too, very early on.

As for Islam/Christianity, I'm no expert, and have been reading heavily. My current understanding is that Christians in Europe found it strange that they were celebrating a religion with origins far away. They began to make up stories about biblical characters traveling to Europe. Then the Pope, in 1196, announced a pilgramage to Jerusalem with the intent of taking the city back. Pilgramage became Crusade with the help of (fake) anti-Muslim propoganda. There is a very moving passage in the biography of a knight who wondered about killing in the name of Christ, as it seemed to conflict with basic Christian thinking. But theologians helped out with the necessary justifications for a holy war (one could call it a jihad) against the Muslims. There were no concerns at that time about Muslim conquests into Europe. The Muslim empire thought Europe was cold and backwards, and had little interest. The crusaders bragged about killing innocent Muslims so that their horses were up to their knees in blood. A pretty image.

The first crusade was in 1095, which was heavily advocated by Pope Urban II who's intent was to capture Jerusalem, establishing the Kingdom of Jerusalem and other Crusader states. They were successful. Your speaking of the third crusade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You seem to agree, Mariner; Christianity was twisted to support holy war. Jihad is an intergral part of Islam, with doctrinal support which still exists it's scriptural documents to this day.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Still not genocide. WHites will die. Blacks will die, whoever is around, will die.

Killing an entire nation of people is genocide.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Iranian president was the leader when they kidnaped the people in your embassy, but today, he has some good relation with you when you let the Iranians to control and rule everything in Iraq...

Iraqi minister of interior Solag is Iranian, which means: his father and mother are Iranians.....and Bush knows that my friend!!

..

Funny how you libs like to scream that Bush wants to INVADE and OCCUPY, instead of just be present with soldiers to help the Iraqis control their own destiny. Then when something like this happens, you scream WE ALLOWED it to happen.

You dont see a contradiction in your statements? I know you will ignore this point because it will require more manipulation and distortion of events and words, or an "opppsss" (and THAT -opps- will NEVER come from you elitists)

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Like lighting Baghdad on fire? Or did Bush do that in the name of big business?

point out where Bush deliberately targeted civilians, and ONLY civilians to kill, IN THE NAME OF ALLAH OR GOD.

You see the beheadings???

Yea, you brilliant people equate the liberation of a country from a madman with the beheading of innocent civilians. And thats not my opinion, but that of a majority of current Iraqi's.

case closed.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Does not every bomb involve combustion of some combustible material? Doesn't combustion involve fire? Your not dropping water balloons, are you?

So its OK to start fires, as long as the bombs you drop weren't specifically designed to cause the largest possible fire for the amount of explosives in them?

What about all the civilians who died, and continue to die, from US bombs? Was that in the name of God or big business?

again, show where civilians, and only civilians were targeted, and show where PRESIDENT BUSH (chew on that one for a while ) ) said it is in the name of GOD, AND I MEAN A DIRECT STATEMENT AS SUCH, not some convaluted twisting of some of his speeches or such. The evil, vile terrorists, whom you support, said DIRECTLY, when beheading civilians, this is in the name of ALLAH.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

So only bombs which are designed to set fires - actually set fires, and bombs which are not designed to set fires, never set anything on fire?.

So, stating a bomb that isnt intended to start a fire doesnt always start a fire is now "they never start a fire" in your arguement.

WEAK. You would be shredded (symbolically, not literally like your hero Saddam would shred humans feet first) in a formal debate.

So Bush didn't know that our bombing campaign would result in civilian losses?.

Its your burden to show where PRESIDENT BUSH specifically said we are targeting civilians. (HINT, he said quite the opposite)

So killing innocent people is OK as long as other people do it, too? OK. I get it.

And we stated that where? Nice strawman, actually, sorry, quite a POOR strawman. Your attempts at lying and propaganda are really quite weak and pathetic. Try coming up with something original and quit reading the DNC talking head points.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

So did some buildings in Baghdad burn to the ground because of bombs that Bush ordered be dropped there or not? Make up your mind.




So your saying its OK to kill innocent civilians as long as its because you invaded a foreign country that you wanted to wage war on?

Show where anyone said no building burnt to the ground.
Now PROVE that it was done intentionally.

CLUE. If I am helping someone build a cabinet, and I accidentally cut them its not the same as if I walk up to them and deliberately cut their arm with a utility knife. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE? My kids do. They are only 8 and 10 years old.

Maybe Im making a false assumption. I have assumed you are an adult, is that true? are you over 18?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Killing an entire nation of people is genocide.

No. It's nationcide. IRan will not get nukes until they become reasonable and tolerant of others. If they try to, they will be destroyed.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

So, I think you misspoke. What you meant to say was that its OK for the US to kill innocent civilians in war, because we are the good guys, but not OK for our enemies to, because they are the bad guys.
Or, did you mean to say that civilian casualites are unavoidable in war, which is why you don't go around starting wars?

Typical for you to change a persons words and put words in their mouths.

Do you think its ok for you to intentionally beat kids because you are the good guy, or do you think its unavoidable when disciplining them, which is why we shouldnt discipline them?

Oppps, there MIGHT be more options, but you need to limit the options that repubs have to evil options, because you support evil terrorists, and you hate repubs, so you have to distort reality for you world view to work.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Exactly. I'm trying to figure out how massive genocide on civilians will help us fight the war on terror. It's people like this that make the good folks of Louisiana like ourselves look like idiots.

Nuking Iraq might be one of the only ways to guarantee that we would get attacked again soon.

Or maybe it would be named "operation I wasnt totally serious" but sometimes it seems like that would be a good idea. But you guys have to attack something like that because you are so weak in your ability to attack our real strong points.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

You're Osama bin Laden's dream.

.

No, Im his worst nightmare, via support of the guys hunting him down, forcing him to live in caves, in obscurity, stripping him of communications, power and the ability to kill children and women.

You on the other hand are his greatest apologist. You are a terrorist in Hindu clothing. You disparge the philosophy of Hinduism.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Are you serious? I was responding to Merlin's suggestion that we nuke the entire nation of Iraq. I think you're the one who doesn't know what genocide means! Are you saying that turning a nation of over 25 million people into a complete nuclear wasteland doesn't qualify as genocide? How many millions of one nationality do you need to kill for it be a genocide for crying outloud?

Please tell me your kidding, or you can't read, or both?

and one nuke on Bahgdad will turn the entire region/country into a wasteland?

Me thinks you need to study up on the effects of one nuke.

He also didnt state what type or size of nuke, so you cant assume anything.

Genocide would require wiping out ALL the people targeted, not just one city worth.

And doing such wouldnt exactly purport with your liberal claims that we only went in for OIL, or for profits for HALIBURTON.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Killing an entire nation of people is genocide.

Bahgdad is an entire nation?
wow, I didnt know that, thanks for informing me.

 

[Nienna]

Killing an entire nation of people is genocide.

Actually, killing an entire nation is not necessary for genocide. With genocide, the intent is to try to kill off one group of people with certain genetic or cultural similarities because of the hatred of that culture/ gene pool.

This war is not to kill a group of people solely because of their inherent characteristics. This war was to depose a government that was a threat to the security of our nation. It was not waged in hatred, but rather, in self-defense. Or (for the liberals), to gain control of a natural resource (if you just can't bring yourself to understand the concept of self-defense).

 

[Said1]

No. It's nationcide. IRan will not get nukes until they become reasonable and tolerant of others. If they try to, they will be destroyed.

Iraq isn't a nation-state either. :

 

[Nienna]

His whole hope in committing 9/11 was to get Christians to hate Muslims, so he could further inflame Muslims to hate Christians. You're playing right along. Want to fight Osama bin Laden? Find a way to love Muslims. Doesn't Christianity say to love everyone?

Good point. Of course, we can't love them if we are dead. Let's secure our national safety, and then show them what love is all about. A good way to do this is, instead of bombing buildings full of civilians at a time of day that will produce an optimum death toll, we could warn cities to evacuate the innocent before we strike, take out their despot, then help them rebuild with better amenities than they have ever experienced in their lives. Oh wait, that's what we're doing.

People who say, "Well, Christianity isn't violent now, but Islam is," aren't making a lot of sense to me. Christianity has been brutally violent.

I have never read the Koran, so I don't know much about the religion of Islam. But I do know Christianity. And I can say with 100% accuracy that Christianity has never been violent. Certain Christians, either mislead, or caught in the throes of sin, may have been violent, But Christianity is not violent.

Crusades? The Inquisition, anyone? Colonialism? Without the arrogant our-religion-is-better-than-yours feeling that Christianity gave them, the European nations would lost a major justification for their brutal colonial projects around the world. Look at all the cultures around the world whose native religions and ideas were steamrollered by missionaries. Think of Hawaii, where surfing culture was killed off by prudish Christians who thought bathing suits should start at the ankles. If you add up all the pain caused by these forms of Christian violence and oppression, it makes 9/11 look like a drop in the bucket.

Steamrollered by missionaries? As I said before, certain people may have misused the name of Jesus to commit horrendous acts. But missionaries went in peace, preaching love. If entire communities chose to accept the Good News, and thus change their cultural references, it was not by the brute force of the missionaries. And it's debatable whether or not it was actually a bad thing.

As for our-religion-is-better-than-yours... of course! Why would you claim to believe something if you didn't hold it to be more true than something else? That's what is means to believe. And for preaching and trying to show people the way of your religion, it is an act of love. If one truly believes that others will burn for eternity in Hell if they do not surrender to Jesus, the UNloving thing would be to just let them burn. The LOVING thing is to tell them about the choice they have.

I eat lunch every day at one of two Muslim-owned restaurants. One owner maintains a "shrine for peace" in his restaurant, with posters and brochures about dozens of interfaith peace initiatives. The other family runs a hair salon, restaurant, and grocery. Good people. I don't hold it against them that my father's family was expelled from Pakistan by other Muslims 55 years ago. Maybe we shouldn't hold it against all Muslims that a few have become extremists.

No doubt that there are many peace-loving Muslims, just as there are many peace-loving Christians.

Sorry if I got a little vehement. I meant no disrespect to you personally. I just wanted to defend my faith.