CDZ Is this image a problem for you? Does it disturb you?

[oldsoul]

When guns are a symbol of indadequacy:

Penny's is a violent place apparently...

Bars are a great place for firearms...

Target...another violent place...don't go shopping without dangling an assault style weapon...

Just eating out with my weaponry .... doesn't everyone?

Contrast that with those for whom gun's are just a tool:

So is the gun a statement or a useful tool? My grandfather (and husband) had/have guns. During hunting season, rifles are in use, when not in use, they're safely stored. My grandfather would have laughted at people who feel the need to carry assault type rifles and "massive stopping power" into Penny's.

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

Nothing. JUst don't get caught with it. I would be in favor of VERY severe penalties in that case.

What so many people fail to realize, or maybe they do, and just don't care, is that to have true freedom and liberty there is a certain level of risk. No risk=not free. Period, end of story, full stop. Want to be free, you have to be willing to accept a certain level of risk.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

Still rings pretty true, even after all this time. Guess those "Crazy White Guys" were pretty darn smart after all...

 

[BULLDOG]

When guns are a symbol of indadequacy:

Penny's is a violent place apparently...

Bars are a great place for firearms...

Target...another violent place...don't go shopping without dangling an assault style weapon...

Just eating out with my weaponry .... doesn't everyone?

Contrast that with those for whom gun's are just a tool:

So is the gun a statement or a useful tool? My grandfather (and husband) had/have guns. During hunting season, rifles are in use, when not in use, they're safely stored. My grandfather would have laughted at people who feel the need to carry assault type rifles and "massive stopping power" into Penny's.

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

Nothing. JUst don't get caught with it. I would be in favor of VERY severe penalties in that case.

What so many people fail to realize, or maybe they do, and just don't care, is that to have true freedom and liberty there is a certain level of risk. No risk=not free. Period, end of story, full stop. Want to be free, you have to be willing to accept a certain level of risk.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

Still rings pretty true, even after all this time. Guess those "Crazy White Guys" were pretty darn smart after all...

Yes, some risk is required. Gun nuts roaming the street hoping for a chance to shoot someone is not a reasonable risk.

 

[oldsoul]

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

Nothing. JUst don't get caught with it. I would be in favor of VERY severe penalties in that case.

What so many people fail to realize, or maybe they do, and just don't care, is that to have true freedom and liberty there is a certain level of risk. No risk=not free. Period, end of story, full stop. Want to be free, you have to be willing to accept a certain level of risk.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

Still rings pretty true, even after all this time. Guess those "Crazy White Guys" were pretty darn smart after all...

Yes, some risk is required. Gun nuts roaming the street hoping for a chance to shoot someone is not a reasonable risk.

On that, we can agree. How do we discern between the "gun nuts", as you call them, and those who carry for other reasons though?

 

[Toronado3800]

Here we have an image....if you see what I am alluding to...please comment.....View attachment 140169

If you have a problem with these women, please explain why.........

The one on the left is stepping on her jeans. The one on the right has the factory torn jeans which always make me look when skin peeks through. Its a love / hate thing though. Rather like yoga pants. At some point if they are too tight, attractive or thin they get too distracting. At some point if the jeans get too ripped it annoys me....I orefer moms in boots with a bit of heel to true high heels. They just aren't functional enough and will detract from my enjoyment of the evening.

 

[BULLDOG]

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

Nothing. JUst don't get caught with it. I would be in favor of VERY severe penalties in that case.

What so many people fail to realize, or maybe they do, and just don't care, is that to have true freedom and liberty there is a certain level of risk. No risk=not free. Period, end of story, full stop. Want to be free, you have to be willing to accept a certain level of risk.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

Still rings pretty true, even after all this time. Guess those "Crazy White Guys" were pretty darn smart after all...

Yes, some risk is required. Gun nuts roaming the street hoping for a chance to shoot someone is not a reasonable risk.

On that, we can agree. How do we discern between the "gun nuts", as you call them, and those who carry for other reasons though?

Cops, military personnel, properly certified and trained security guards have a valid reason to be armed in public.Others are either making a fashion statement, or they are so afraid of facing the natural uncertainty of reality till they don't have the ability to safely carry a gun.

 

[Divine Wind]

There are gun nuts....and anti-gun nuts. Somewhere in between is the place of reason.

Guns are tools. They are tools that have potentially lethal consequences. They should be treated with the respect and care that they deserve.

A "gun culture" doesn't exactly promote that does it?

My grandfather was in the military, he had guns, he had hunting rifles. He did not go to downtown Saltlake City "packing"...EVER.

My culture treat's guns as a useful tool to be treated with respect, secured when not in use and not used as a statement.

That's probably why I have issues with the photo in the OP. Not that they have guns, but that they feel the need to be armed in the kitchen, talking with the dog, chilling with coffee...as if that is totally ordinary. I understand WHY they want to portray the image...but it's not realistic.
saw is good self defense but I'm not going to haul it around.

Define "gun culture". Is that the same as "self-defense culture"? When parents take their kids to Tae Kwon Do lessons are they promoting violence or self-defense?

Depends on the attitude they teach the kids. If the kid thinks he needs to stay in a fighting stance 24/7 because they are afraid someone might jump them at any minute, they are being taught a violence culture. That would be the same attitude of gun nuts who think they need to be armed 24/7

There is evil lurking around every corner. You are the last line of defense to save humanity. Every person you see is a potential adversary. You are never really safe....don't let your guard down

Look.....a black guy just popped out of the bushes

Fear-mongering is a favorite LW tactic.

More people die every year from fatal driving accidents than from gun murders. Should we ban cars within a 100 yards of every school, every pedestrian walkway and every park just because someone might decide to drive over other people? Should the LWers fear-monger that prospect or will they STFU because they enjoy the freedom of their driving privileges rather than be forced to bicycle around town or take a bus?

What a goofy comparison.

What a lame response.

 

[Divine Wind]

When guns are a symbol of indadequacy:

Penny's is a violent place apparently...

Bars are a great place for firearms...

Target...another violent place...don't go shopping without dangling an assault style weapon...

Just eating out with my weaponry .... doesn't everyone?

Contrast that with those for whom gun's are just a tool:

So is the gun a statement or a useful tool? My grandfather (and husband) had/have guns. During hunting season, rifles are in use, when not in use, they're safely stored. My grandfather would have laughted at people who feel the need to carry assault type rifles and "massive stopping power" into Penny's.

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

And no vote, no free speech, no other Constitutional rights?

 

[Divine Wind]

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

Nothing. JUst don't get caught with it. I would be in favor of VERY severe penalties in that case.

What so many people fail to realize, or maybe they do, and just don't care, is that to have true freedom and liberty there is a certain level of risk. No risk=not free. Period, end of story, full stop. Want to be free, you have to be willing to accept a certain level of risk.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

Still rings pretty true, even after all this time. Guess those "Crazy White Guys" were pretty darn smart after all...

Yes, some risk is required. Gun nuts roaming the street hoping for a chance to shoot someone is not a reasonable risk.

On that, we can agree. How do we discern between the "gun nuts", as you call them, and those who carry for other reasons though?

The same way he can't discern between which teenagers will eventually kill someone texting while driving and those who won't.

 

[2aguy]

When guns are a symbol of indadequacy:

Penny's is a violent place apparently...

Bars are a great place for firearms...

Target...another violent place...don't go shopping without dangling an assault style weapon...

Just eating out with my weaponry .... doesn't everyone?

Contrast that with those for whom gun's are just a tool:

So is the gun a statement or a useful tool? My grandfather (and husband) had/have guns. During hunting season, rifles are in use, when not in use, they're safely stored. My grandfather would have laughted at people who feel the need to carry assault type rifles and "massive stopping power" into Penny's.

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

 

[2aguy]

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

Nothing. JUst don't get caught with it. I would be in favor of VERY severe penalties in that case.

What so many people fail to realize, or maybe they do, and just don't care, is that to have true freedom and liberty there is a certain level of risk. No risk=not free. Period, end of story, full stop. Want to be free, you have to be willing to accept a certain level of risk.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

Still rings pretty true, even after all this time. Guess those "Crazy White Guys" were pretty darn smart after all...

Yes, some risk is required. Gun nuts roaming the street hoping for a chance to shoot someone is not a reasonable risk.

We don't have a problem now....we have a criminal problem...but that is on the judge and prosecutor side.....your post has no bearing in reality....since more Americans now carry guns than ever before, and our violent crime rates have dropped.....showing that you have no idea what you are talking about.

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

-- gun murder down 49%
--gun crime down 75%
--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

Concealed carry permit number....
New Study: Over 16.3 million concealed handgun permits, last year saw the largest increase ever in number of permits - Crime Prevention Research Center

actual study...

Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2017 by John R. Lott :: SSRN

 

[BULLDOG]

When guns are a symbol of indadequacy:

Penny's is a violent place apparently...

Bars are a great place for firearms...

Target...another violent place...don't go shopping without dangling an assault style weapon...

Just eating out with my weaponry .... doesn't everyone?

Contrast that with those for whom gun's are just a tool:

So is the gun a statement or a useful tool? My grandfather (and husband) had/have guns. During hunting season, rifles are in use, when not in use, they're safely stored. My grandfather would have laughted at people who feel the need to carry assault type rifles and "massive stopping power" into Penny's.

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

 

[2aguy]

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

It isn't stopping the criminals who actually use them to commit murder....it did stop a senior citizen who wanted to buy a gun for his wife...he filled out the paperwork and didn't remember a misdemeanor he had from when he was in his 20s...he said he didn't have any, it popped, and now he is looking at a felony for lying on the paperwork.....

Of course, the 15 year old gang banger got his gun easily....with no background check....

 

[Divine Wind]

Yeah.....the bar one? Virginia and allowed concealed carry in bars...their crime rate in bars went down....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”

Virginia isn't the only state that allows carrying a gun....you just can't drink and carry, just like you can't drive and carry...

So......you guys would laugh at people who carry every day....tell us, do you know exactly when you will be violently attacked by a criminal? Because a lot of women who are violently raped, a lot of people who are brutally beaten and robbed, and a lot of people murdered by criminals sure could have used your psychic abilities.....

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

What is childish is punishing people for the illegal actions of a very, very few assholes.

 

[BULLDOG]

I think allowing guns in bars is a VERY BAD IDEA frankly. Alcohal fuels violence - there is no doubt about that.

I'm not totally anti-gun, believe it or not. I support the right of citizens to have guns but I also support LIMITS on that right (just like any other right). One of those is mixing guns and booze.

Is there any llimitation you support when it comes to gun rights?

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

What is childish is punishing people for the illegal actions of a very, very few assholes.

Do you think people should text while driving?

 

[Divine Wind]

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

What is childish is punishing people for the illegal actions of a very, very few assholes.

Do you think people should text while driving?

No. Do you think we should ban cars because a few people do?

 

[BULLDOG]

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

What is childish is punishing people for the illegal actions of a very, very few assholes.

Do you think people should text while driving?

No. Do you think we should ban cars because a few people do?

Texting while driving is stupid and kills people. Carrying a gun in public for no reason is stupid and kills people.

 

[Divine Wind]

Texting while driving is stupid and kills people. Carrying a gun in public for no reason is stupid and kills people.

Yes, texting and driving does kill people. Facts & Statistics About Texting & Driving (Update for 2017) | Personal Injury San Diego.org
Statistics compiled in recent years show that every day in the U.S., 9 people die and over 1,153 are injured in distracted driver crashes

How many people are killed per day by a person lawfully carrying a firearm?

 

[dblack]

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

What is childish is punishing people for the illegal actions of a very, very few assholes.

Do you think people should text while driving?

No. Do you think we should ban cars because a few people do?

Texting while driving is stupid and kills people. Carrying a gun in public for no reason is stupid and kills people.

Neither one of those things kills people.

 

[dblack]

Sure, If you are convicted of a violent crime, no gun, period. Full stop. See the only way to CONSTITUTIONALLY take a right, is through what is called "due process". In other words, conviction of a crime.

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

What is childish is punishing people for the illegal actions of a very, very few assholes.

Do you think people should text while driving?

Of course not. But I also don't think people should watch television. In fact, I think the latter is far more dangerous. Should we make that illegal too?

 

[Divine Wind]

So without a background check, what will stop him from being able to buy a gun?

And how did background checks stop the killers shooting up Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., L.A., New York? They already are not allowed to buy a gun because they are criminals...so when the police encounter them while they have the gun, we can already arrest them and lock them up....then, people like you who are judges and prosecutors let them back out, over and over again....that is the problem....not our dumb background check system.

Nobody expects background checks to stop all illegal gun buyers. Your question is childish.

What is childish is punishing people for the illegal actions of a very, very few assholes.

Do you think people should text while driving?

Of course not. But I also don't think people should watch television. In fact, I think the latter is far more dangerous. Should we make that illegal too?

Only if you believe in an authoritarian state which dictates what people should think, believe and do.