Chinese drones can destroy f-35 in seconds?

[kyzr]

Are you saying that NATOs Real Military will get it's ass handed to it by the Fantasy Red Alliance?

Point of information:
How does NATO get involved over Taiwan? (or not, sounds unlikely to me)
Or, was that imaginary engagement between NATO & Russia with China, i.e. the "Red Alliance" theoretical?

 

[22lcidw]

kyzr


Drones can find helos by being deployed in areas subject to helicopter attacks. In Elon Musks scenario, swarms of drones are used to attack a target.
Low priced kamikaze drones can be sent up en mass to attack incoming helicopters.

The tail rotor is especially vulnerable

We need to make sure we invest in low-cost technologies to destroy drones. Also, perhaps our fighter jets can have some type of jamming of signals to the drones' technologies.

 

[Vrenn]

Point of information:
How does NATO get involved over Taiwan? (or not, sounds unlikely to me)
Or, was that imaginary engagement between NATO & Russia with China, i.e. the "Red Alliance" theoretical?

Alphabets is trying to include Russia and China fighting the same war. Not much chance of that.

 

[Vrenn]

We need to make sure we invest in low-cost technologies to destroy drones. Also, perhaps our fighter jets can have some type of jamming of signals to the drones' technologies.

More and more aircraft are getting the ability to jam the daylights out of radar. I think the F-16 was the first to receive a rudamentary system. But the Wild Weazels have had it since the EF-111.

 

[kyzr]

Alphabets is trying to include Russia and China fighting the same war. Not much chance of that.

Actually more of a chance than you think. Its the "Axis of Evil" redux.

 

[Vrenn]

Actually more of a chance than you think. Its the "Axis of Evil" redux.

Russia has little to lose. Maybe they want to lose so they can file for war rebuilding funds. But China has a bunch to lose. And attacking the US is going to make them both lose either alone or together.

 

[Zavulon]

Sure, and what else were the Dumbass people supposed to do for Vodka? With the Russians taking control, industry pretty well died out.

Actually, Eurointegration meant destruction of Ukrainian industry in the first place. And it was one of the important (but not the most important) reason for the rebellion. Donetsk and Lugansk didn't want to become another Chicago. So, yes, joining People's Militia and/or Wagner group was good both in moment - its decent money to feed your family, and reintegration with Russia (and elimination of Kievan regime) give good perspectives.

You may not need it but the US does out of luxury. And you are using a whatif against reality once again. Both China and Russia can't put enough air to air attack drones to bother a flight of cessnas.

Really? Do you mean, that the USA can build F-35s (and train pilots for them) faster than China and Russia can produce fighter-drones.

Again, there aren't enough to even bother worrying about. Your whatif scenerio doesn't exist. And you keep inflating the fantasy ability way past it's prime.

The whole thread is about "whatif scenario". "Whatif" is one of the most important tools human brain possess.

You keep presenting a whatif as if it were reality. It's not real. You keep making the claim you can target the F-35 but it's just not happening.

Why not? Nothing is totally invisible. If one needs radars specifically designed to target stealth fighters - one can easily got them.

Not long after the Russians took control of the Donbass region it's manufacturing almost dried up.

It isn't over until it's over.

Hey, if it's paid for, we use it. You will never face just the F-35 by itself. You will also have the F-22, F-15 and the European fighters. Plus, the bombers with their stand off weapons hitting your runways, factories, military bases, transportation and more.

Bla-bla-bla. And if it comes to this level - nukes will burn down your cities. And Russia plus China has much more nukes than America plus Europe. And result of the war will mostly depend on the results of the nuclear exchange.
Therefore, the very question "F-35 vs Chinese drones" means local conflict when both sides prefer "not to escalate too much". Like, say, the USA and DPP want to keep control of Taiwan, but they want to avoid nuclear war, and China and KMT want to regain control over Taiwan, but they want to limit damage as much as possible.
So, if we are more or less repeating Ukrainian scenario (which is possible) it may looks something like this:
1. Fall of 2025 - unsuccessful America's war in Ukraine makes the very idea of America's support and DPP much less popular, and KMT becomes much more popular.
2. Cornered, DPP makes a radical move - they ban KMT and all "pro-Commie" parties, in violation of their own laws, change Constitution by themselves, start sanctions against PRC. Of course, at least half of Taiwan population is unhappy about it, and many of those who are unhappy - start cooperation with pro-Chinese spy and sabotage networks. KMT make alliance with CCP. There is KMT-lead rebellion in Northern Taiwan.
3. CPR has started the Special Military Operation for reintegration of Taiwan, mostly by using cruise missiles and drones to strike positions of "DPP-separatists" (as they call them) and by sending some CCP forces to support "KMT-reunionists".
4. The US decision makers start to think what can be done to defend DPP regime, but not to destroy Taiwan (and the USA) in process and to not overstretch US forces (there is a lot of places in the world demanding their presence).
One of Trump's advisors suggest: "We can just leave Taiwan, allow CPR to "reintegrate" it and then use our Taiwanese assets to work against CPR". Second suggest: "Typical Chinese salvo is one-two hundred cheap cruise missiles/drones. We can send fifty F-35, and they'll effectively defend the most important Taiwanese sites, it will convince Chinamen that they can't achieve their goals that way, and it will force them to escalate or de-escalate." First one contradict: "Fifty F-35 definitely won't be enough, for Chinese fighter drones will wipe them out. We'll need much more F-35s, AWACS, bombers, our own air defence and a lot of more things."
You are third advisor. You can support one of those opinions: a) Fifty F-35 will be definitely enough to defend Taiwan for the long time, b) Fifty F-35 definitely won't be enough to defend Taiwan, and you need to find arguments to support your opinion.
And then it's up to POTUS to decide if the USA can afford to send fifty F-35 or even larger forces.

Meanwhile, the F-35As are going to be taking your few SU-35s and 57s out leaving the older, less capable Russian Fighters (yes we lump in china on this one) to face hundreds of really decent NATO equipment. And add to the fact, the entire NATO is much better trained.

The results of NATO vs ODKB war will be determined mostly by the results of nuclear exchange.

A real fighter a

Russia can't even defeat a 3rd rate country.

Right now its still not about "defeating". Its more about coercion into peace on Russia acceptable terms.

China couldn't even defeat the battle torn Vietnam.

Actually, the USA couldn't do it, either. That's the thing with "limited conflicts". You don't use all your forces, only limited part of them.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Somehow I don't think that's true.

Musk Again Attacks F-35 Fighters; Says Chinese Swarm Drones Can Destroy Manned Jets In Seconds

Fresh salvos have been fired in the Elon Musk vs F-35 war even as the aircraft maker Lockheed Martin, after losing out on the contract to build the US Air Force’s 6th generation fighter jet, vowed to upgrade the 5th generation F-35 Lightning II with 6th generation technology. Tech czar Musk has...

www.eurasiantimes.com

I know we have some pretty savvy military people here.... can someone comment on this please?
Is it possibly true?

Jo

Warfare has changed massively in the last 3 years.

He said that ALL crewed aircraft could be destroyed by swarms.

But luckily the US doesn't go to war with anyone strong than a fly because it's not worth it. Sometimes you have aircraft and other military equipment to scare others off, rather to actually fight those wars.

What's the point? You go to a high level war and within a month warfare has changed totally. So, you need to have a military that isn't so burdensome as to be obselete.

Look at WW2, the UK did okay because it had minimal armed forces and had the time to rebuild. The French had an expensive military, predicting the rise of Germany again, and was obsolete before the war started, but unwilling to get rid of its expensive armaments.

 

[Vrenn]

Actually, Eurointegration meant destruction of Ukrainian industry in the first place. And it was one of the important (but not the most important) reason for the rebellion. Donetsk and Lugansk didn't want to become another Chicago. So, yes, joining People's Militia and/or Wagner group was good both in moment - its decent money to feed your family, and reintegration with Russia (and elimination of Kievan regime) give good perspectives.

You are pulling a Orange Cheeto move on this one. You just referred back to about the year 1297.

Really? Do you mean, that the USA can build F-35s (and train pilots for them) faster than China and Russia can produce fighter-drones.

we already are. The US already has 245 F-35As and another 1250 on back order. World wide there are 630 F-35s of different flavors. And no one has the AI for a good fighter drone. The US tried that in a demonstrator in the 80s. When they turned it loose, it's IFF malfunctioned and it tried to kill everything around it. The finally pulled everything out of it's range and let it run out of gas.

The whole thread is about "whatif scenario". "Whatif" is one of the most important tools human brain possess.

I am using what is in the inventory already in the US and NATO. You use the whatifs and fairytales from China and Russia.

Why not? Nothing is totally invisible. If one needs radars specifically designed to target stealth fighters - one can easily got them.

And AWACS can sense an F-35 at over 50 miles. But that's with low frequency radar unable to target. The enemy fighter will pick it up from 14 to 40 miles depending. No, it's not invisible but as long as it controls the fight, it just as well be.

It isn't over until it's over.


Bla-bla-bla. And if it comes to this level - nukes will burn down your cities. And Russia plus China has much more nukes than America plus Europe. And result of the war will mostly depend on the results of the nuclear exchange.

Our Minitmens are much more dependable and accurate. It takes fewer. Besides, check the makeup of the population centers for all 3 countries. Use some common sense on this one. No one is going to use Nukes unless they are invaded. And the US has zero intention of invading either Russia nor China. Just move them back to the beginning of the 19th century.

Therefore, the very question "F-35 vs Chinese drones" means local conflict when both sides prefer "not to escalate too much". Like, say, the USA and DPP want to keep control of Taiwan, but they want to avoid nuclear war, and China and KMT want to regain control over Taiwan, but they want to limit damage as much as possible.
So, if we are more or less repeating Ukrainian scenario (which is possible) it may looks something like this:
1. Fall of 2025 - unsuccessful America's war in Ukraine makes the very idea of America's support and DPP much less popular, and KMT becomes much more popular.

Not exactly written in stone with Russia in such a termoil right now.

2. Cornered, DPP makes a radical move - they ban KMT and all "pro-Commie" parties, in violation of their own laws, change Constitution by themselves, start sanctions against PRC. Of course, at least half of Taiwan population is unhappy about it, and many of those who are unhappy - start cooperation with pro-Chinese spy and sabotage networks. KMT make alliance with CCP. There is KMT-lead rebellion in Northern Taiwan.
3. CPR has started the Special Military Operation for reintegration of Taiwan, mostly by using cruise missiles and drones to strike positions of "DPP-separatists" (as they call them) and by sending some CCP forces to support "KMT-reunionists".

Yes, between the standoffs from the B-1, B-2, B-52. Along with their ships in the straights disappearing due to the unseen US attack subs.

4. The US decision makers start to think what can be done to defend DPP regime, but not to destroy Taiwan (and the USA) in process and to not overstretch US forces (there is a lot of places in the world demanding their presence).
One of Trump's advisors suggest: "We can just leave Taiwan, allow CPR to "reintegrate" it and then use our Taiwanese assets to work against CPR". Second suggest: "Typical Chinese salvo is one-two hundred cheap cruise missiles/drones. We can send fifty F-35, and they'll effectively defend the most important Taiwanese sites, it will convince Chinamen that they can't achieve their goals that way, and it will force them to escalate or de-escalate." First one contradict: "Fifty F-35 definitely won't be enough, for Chinese fighter drones will wipe them out. We'll need much more F-35s, AWACS, bombers, our own air defence and a lot of more things."
You are third advisor. You can support one of those opinions: a) Fifty F-35 will be definitely enough to defend Taiwan for the long time, b) Fifty F-35 definitely won't be enough to defend Taiwan, and you need to find arguments to support your opinion.
And then it's up to POTUS to decide if the USA can afford to send fifty F-35 or even larger forces.

The larger force is already there. Two carrier groups along with the Guam and other bombers and support birds. Yah, Yah, I know, China has 3 carriers. Two old kremlin classes (jump ramps only) and the 3rd hasn't done it's sea trials and hasn't launched a single air craft from it's decks.

The results of NATO vs ODKB war will be determined mostly by the results of nuclear exchange.

Which bring China back to about the beginning of the 19th century. They won't use nukes and they also will not take Taiwan unless Taiwan agrees (fat chance) to it.

Right now its still not about "defeating". Its more about coercion into peace on Russia acceptable terms.


Actually, the USA couldn't do it, either. That's the thing with "limited conflicts". You don't use all your forces, only limited part of them.

the Russians are using about 80% of their total military force in Ukraine and can't find a way to win. As an American Citizen, I don't fear Russia on bit because it's a paper tiger.

 

[Zavulon]

You are pulling a Orange Cheeto move on this one. You just referred back to about the year 1297.

No. I just referred to 2013. People in industrial regions of South-Eastern of Ukraine didn't like the idea of Eurointegration as well as many Americans (especially in ex-industrial regions) don't like idea of globalisation.

we already are. The US already has 245 F-35As and another 1250 on back order.

Doesn't matter how many of planes you have in peace time. What is important - is your ability to build new ones.

World wide there are 630 F-35s of different flavors. And no one has the AI for a good fighter drone. The US tried that in a demonstrator in the 80s. When they turned it loose, it's IFF malfunctioned and it tried to kill everything around it. The finally pulled everything out of it's range and let it run out of gas.

You know, computers now and computers forty years ago are pretty different things.

I am using what is in the inventory already in the US and NATO. You use the whatifs and fairytales from China and Russia.

Or you are talking about obsolete inventories and I'm talking about perspective ones.

And AWACS can sense an F-35 at over 50 miles.

So they say. And Chinamen say WZ-9 can sense F-35 from more than 200 miles even in frontal hemisphere.

But that's with low frequency radar unable to target.

It all depends on your algorithms. Like, you find out target with some preliminary precise, and then you narrow search sector of your high frequency radar to find out targets position more precisely (or even use lidars and IR sensors), and then send there fighter drones in silence mode, they launch self-guided missiles, that will turn on their radars at, say, ten kilometres.

You know, enemies are always like that - they always try to find out the way to spoil your congenial strategy or eliminate your advantage.

The enemy fighter will pick it up from 14 to 40 miles depending.

Or, the enemy fighters (including figher drines) may just get targets' coordinates (with acceptable accuracy) via network from his WZ-9 drone.

No, it's not invisible but as long as it controls the fight, it just as well be.

Or, it might be as good protection as shallow waters of Pearl Harbour protected Pacific Fleet ships from Japanese torpedoes.

Our Minitmens are much more dependable and accurate.

Of course no. Your Minutemen are obsolete crap.

No one is going to use Nukes unless they are invaded. And the US has zero intention of invading either Russia nor China. Just move them back to the beginning of the 19th century.

Technically saying, both Russia and Taiwan are already invaded by US proxies, coz both Taiwan and Novorussia are, from their points of view - their territories.

Yes, between the standoffs from the B-1, B-2, B-52. Along with their ships in the straights disappearing due to the unseen US attack subs.

Really? Man, freaking Houthies effectively stopped US Navy in Red sea. And, according the task - we are not talking about large scale war. We are talking about pretty limited intervention - fifty F-35.

The larger force is already there. Two carrier groups along with the Guam and other bombers and support birds. Yah, Yah, I know, China has 3 carriers. Two old kremlin classes (jump ramps only) and the 3rd hasn't done it's sea trials and hasn't launched a single air craft from it's decks.

The very topic of this thread is not "US carriers vs Chinese carriers". Its "F-35s vs Chinese drones". Much smaller question.

Which bring China back to about the beginning of the 19th century. They won't use nukes and they also will not take Taiwan unless Taiwan agrees (fat chance) to it.

If Taiwanese people face the choice between the fate of Ukraine and the fate of Hong Kong - their choice is more or less obvious.

the Russians are using about 80% of their total military force in Ukraine and can't find a way to win.

It is simply not true. Russian military force is about 2.3 mln and they hardly have 300K, directly participating in the SMO in Ukraine.

 

[luiza]

As remarked elsewhere , savvy commentators have speculated that the Houthi Tooty boys have got their hands on Drones that can chase F16s.

This may be why Trumpfy has capitulated over Yemen but naturally does not want that realised .

Speculation maybe ---- but at least two F16s have disappeared and the USS Harry Truman is sailing to dry dock for presumed good reason .

 

[Vrenn]