Is there any sound argument for God's existence?

[hobelim]

I don't think the universe can be considered rational. Even so, in the universe, specifically here on earth, there is ample evidence of the ascendant nature of life and that all life forms evolve and adapt to changing circumstances or go extinct.

The universe is the ultimate example of rationality. It's governed by rational, natural law. As we acquire knowledge, it fits into the puzzle and validates what was already there, or we chuck it.

That may not be evidence of God but it does suggest that if a deity does exist a reasonable and rational assumption would be that he could only be perceived by the more highly evolved and adaptable intelligences.

I think, if God exists, It crated the universe as a rational stage for us to exercise our free will without It's influence. To do so, God needed to create the universe so that there would be NO evidence for or at against It's existence.

As you said, the biggest obstacle to perceiving truth are the lies we tell ourselves,


The way I see it everything that exists in the material universe points to the existence of God, everywhere you look God is there. If you look into furthest reaches of outer space, he is there, If you look to the bottom of the sea, he is there, if you look under a rock he is there, If you search the innermost depths of your own mind, God is there. Seek the living God within. Unless you first find evidence of him within, you will never see any evidence of him out there.

How much time have you already wasted looking for something that you thought you lost only to find it in plain sight?

If you clutter your brain trying to figure out where you left your car keys or worrying about what you are going to do without them, you will risk being paralyzed or making less than desirable choices that will cost you, but if you just open your mind to see what is right in front of your own nose where ever you look, you will find them sooner at no cost and be on your way...

If you are conducting an experiment in a lab to discover the truth about something, you first have to sterilize the environment to assure against contamination of the results. True?

clean your microscopes tubes and beakers.

Purify your mind and be refined and then you will see God.

 

[daws101]

We rely on more than our sense of sight to verify its existence. It's gravitational field affects all other bodies in the solar system (and technically, in the universe), which we deduce by math, not faith.

Yeah, I figured some smarty pants would come along and argue that we could still verify Jupiter through one of our other five limited senses. I guess the point skipped comfortably over your head? Relying on math requires faith, I hate to tell you that. You have faith that math will work predictably as it alway has. With gravity, what we have discovered is perplexing, it doesn't always work as math says it should. Can you explain why gravity exists in the universe? Simple question.

If we die, does the universe cease to exist? Judging by all those who've died before us, no. And science tells us it was here long before we were. Where do we choose to put our faith: science with all the facts and evidence building up in its support, or revelation, with nothing but ancient hearsay, which becomes harder and harder to believe with every passing day.

I didn't say "if we die" in my argument. I asked if we lost our sense of sight, would Jupiter still exist? Science tells us all kinds of things, WE make a determination when to have faith in science. We're not always correct to put our faith in science, it has been wrong many times. The "facts and evidence" you speak of are physical attributes we can confirm with our five limited senses. We rely on faith that our senses aren't lying and we can depend on them to be accurate.

As for human spirituality, it is hardly just "ancient hearsay" as you put it. This is the most defining attribute of the human species and has been present in mankind since the beginning. Ever since there has been human civilization, there has been human spirituality. Ancient, modern, post-modern, current. From then until now, man has believed in something greater than self. To dismiss this as "ancient hearsay" is pure ignorance. Now maybe your argument works to contradict certain religious teachings, but religion is simply a manifestation of our human spirituality. It is the proof that humans are spiritually connected.

Now the really curious thing is the 'sense of spirituality' that most humans have. Billions of testimonials spanning all of humanity through the ages, attesting to the power of spiritual belief. If humans gained nothing from this and it served no valid purpose, it would have been a discarded attribute along the way. Yet what our history shows is thousands of years of people being persecuted, murdered, razed and pilaged, locked away, tortured and abused... all the while, refusing to depart with their connection to something spiritual. It can't be stomped out of the hearts of man. It still persists as strongly today as ever.

If you were a scientist studying any other creature on the planet, and it exhibited a certain behavioral attribute consistently through time, regardless of conditions or circumstances, you'd have to conclude the attribute was beneficial and important to the survival of the species. This is from Darwin himself, by the way. So the real "evidence" shows that something spiritual probably does exist, else humans would have given up on the concept long ago.

FALSE! the idea (belief) that something spiritual exists is no proof that the thing believed is fact....the idea is self perpetuating, making the need for actual evidence secondary at best ...

 

[hobelim]

If you were a scientist studying any other creature on the planet, and it exhibited a certain behavioral attribute consistently through time, regardless of conditions or circumstances, you'd have to conclude the attribute was beneficial and important to the survival of the species. This is from Darwin himself, by the way. So the real "evidence" shows that something spiritual probably does exist, else humans would have given up on the concept long ago.

FALSE! the idea (belief) that something spiritual exists is no proof that the thing believed is fact....the idea is self perpetuating, making the need for actual evidence secondary at best ...

This has been pointed out to him many times. The man must be hard of reading.

His argument is that irrational superstitious beliefs are essential to the survival of the species because if the supernatural wasn't real that tendency would have died out, according to Darwin. As if it wasn't dying out.

Its as silly as asserting that because people have been killing each other from the beginning it must be essential to survival to the species, or else there would be no murderers.....according to Darwin.

the only proof of anything presented by all of this is that historically, the majority of people who ever lived have not been very rational.

What a surprise!

 

[Boss]

There is nothing irrational or superstitious about human spirituality. Murdering people is not a common human attribute. Spirituality is. Religions come and go, gain and decline in popularity, but human spirituality remains consistent at about 95% throughout the course of human civilization.

FALSE! the idea (belief) that something spiritual exists is no proof that the thing believed is fact....the idea is self perpetuating, making the need for actual evidence secondary at best ...

Science never proves anything as fact. The best science can do is provide information. We may interpret that information as "evidence" to support our faith in belief of something but science is not conclusive.

Math/reason/science isn't a sense.

I never claimed it was. However, math/reason/science depends on our five senses. Our senses are physical in nature. They relate to the physical universe. If humans all lost the five senses, would the universe still exist? More specifically, could you prove it?

Faith that the universe is rational, is an assumption that is validated every second of our existence both by what we know, and what we are accumulating at an ever accelerating pace to our knowledge.

And faith in God is also rational. It is proven every second of our existence both by what we know and what we are accumulating at an ever accelerating pace to our spiritual knowledge. You assume that whenever science explains how something happens that we previously believed was the work of God, that is somehow negates the need for God as an explanation. This is a naive assumption. I can explain how a computer works, it doesn't explain why the computer exists.

You could not explain why gravity exists in the universe. You also can't explain why electricity exists, you can only explain how it works. The same applies for atoms and compounds like H2O. Why does two parts hydrogen and one part water form the basis for all carbon-based life? Not how, but WHY? You can't explain this and science can't explain it. Only God can.

What does "spiritually connected" mean? Nothing more than having that big unanswered question, "Why?" I don't deny the question, only that there has ever been an answer, divine or otherwise. What answer is anything other than ancient hearsay? Can you give one example that isn't self-justifying.

But there must be an answer unless you abandon scientific method and adopt faith. Science never gives up seeking answers, it continues to ask why. "Spiritually connected" simply means what it says, that humans have a profound connection to something spiritual, something outside the physical and immeasurable by physical means. Again, this spiritual connection is more than ancient hearsay, it was as present in ancient humans as it is today. Religions come and go, you can make this argument for various religious beliefs through the ages, but human spiritual connection remains consistent.

I dont understand the statement "give an example that isn't self-justifying" ...it's like saying, "give me evidence that doesn't prove your point!" The "example" has been given, it is human spiritual connection that spans humanity and human civilization. This is our most defining attribute as a species. Any other attribute humans have that isn't found in other species is directly related to this attribute of human spirituality.

Why? It's nothing more than wondering if our spirit survives, and why good things happen to bad people and vice versa.

But science tells us this can't be true. No other living things wonder if their spirit survives, they don't seem to even be aware they have spirits. We wonder if our spirit survives because we are spiritually connected to something greater than self. We have an awareness that other living things don't seem to have.

What you're describing is either the power of superstition, or hope.

But it's not superstition. If it were, belief in God would be equivalent to believing black cats are bad luck. And what do you mean by "power of superstition, or hope?" If enough people have hope something will happen, can they will it to happen?

To give up would be to admit the mortality of our soul, nothing more. Beyond that, far too many people subsist on emotion (blind faith) without recourse to reason. There is no rationality behind any of the revealed religions, but people adhere to them blindly by the billions because it makes them feel good to do so.

But there is nothing about a soul that is mortal. If you believe we have souls then you believe in human spiritual connection. Yes, far too many people subsist on emotion without recourse to reason. This sometimes causes them to irrationally conclude there is no God, when every rationality for human spirituality exists. It's who we are and it defines us as a species.

You are casually dismissing our persistent attribute of human spirituality because you claim it is merely something that makes us feel good. Do humans have sex because it makes them feel good? I guess you can say some do, but is that why humans have sex? Or is there more to it than mere pleasure?

 

[Boss]

As if it wasn't dying out.

But nothing is dying out. In the US, 85% of us identify with some form of religious belief while 15% profess no specific religious belief. 20% of us attend weekly religious services to support our human spiritual belief. Of the 15% who profess no religious belief, only 5% are Nihilists. This is consistent throughout all of human civilization as far back as we can measure. 95% of us belief in something greater than self, and we always have.

 

[hobelim]

As if it wasn't dying out.

But nothing is dying out. In the US, 85% of us identify with some form of religious belief while 15% profess no specific religious belief. 20% of us attend weekly religious services to support our human spiritual belief. Of the 15% who profess no religious belief, only 5% are Nihilists. This is consistent throughout all of human civilization as far back as we can measure. 95% of us belief in something greater than self, and we always have.

A belief in something greater than self is not evidence of any spiritual reality. Anyone caught in a storm on the sea has that humbling belief.

From my experience, when I was a child 95% of the people my age believed in the virgin birth, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or that monsters lived under their bed. Now 95% of them don't which shows that superstition is inclined to die out with emotional and intellectual maturity. Of those who still attend religious services as adults 85% of them are just pretending to believe out of fear or conformity, 10% are mentally ill, and the remaining 5% are deliberate deceivers.

 

[daws101]

There is nothing irrational or superstitious about human spirituality. Murdering people is not a common human attribute. Spirituality is. Religions come and go, gain and decline in popularity, but human spirituality remains consistent at about 95% throughout the course of human civilization.

FALSE! the idea (belief) that something spiritual exists is no proof that the thing believed is fact....the idea is self perpetuating, making the need for actual evidence secondary at best ...

Science never proves anything as fact. The best science can do is provide information. We may interpret that information as "evidence" to support our faith in belief of something but science is not conclusive.

Math/reason/science isn't a sense.

I never claimed it was. However, math/reason/science depends on our five senses. Our senses are physical in nature. They relate to the physical universe. If humans all lost the five senses, would the universe still exist? More specifically, could you prove it?



And faith in God is also rational. It is proven every second of our existence both by what we know and what we are accumulating at an ever accelerating pace to our spiritual knowledge. You assume that whenever science explains how something happens that we previously believed was the work of God, that is somehow negates the need for God as an explanation. This is a naive assumption. I can explain how a computer works, it doesn't explain why the computer exists.

You could not explain why gravity exists in the universe. You also can't explain why electricity exists, you can only explain how it works. The same applies for atoms and compounds like H2O. Why does two parts hydrogen and one part water form the basis for all carbon-based life? Not how, but WHY? You can't explain this and science can't explain it. Only God can.



But there must be an answer unless you abandon scientific method and adopt faith. Science never gives up seeking answers, it continues to ask why. "Spiritually connected" simply means what it says, that humans have a profound connection to something spiritual, something outside the physical and immeasurable by physical means. Again, this spiritual connection is more than ancient hearsay, it was as present in ancient humans as it is today. Religions come and go, you can make this argument for various religious beliefs through the ages, but human spiritual connection remains consistent.

I dont understand the statement "give an example that isn't self-justifying" ...it's like saying, "give me evidence that doesn't prove your point!" The "example" has been given, it is human spiritual connection that spans humanity and human civilization. This is our most defining attribute as a species. Any other attribute humans have that isn't found in other species is directly related to this attribute of human spirituality.



But science tells us this can't be true. No other living things wonder if their spirit survives, they don't seem to even be aware they have spirits. We wonder if our spirit survives because we are spiritually connected to something greater than self. We have an awareness that other living things don't seem to have.

What you're describing is either the power of superstition, or hope.

But it's not superstition. If it were, belief in God would be equivalent to believing black cats are bad luck. And what do you mean by "power of superstition, or hope?" If enough people have hope something will happen, can they will it to happen?

To give up would be to admit the mortality of our soul, nothing more. Beyond that, far too many people subsist on emotion (blind faith) without recourse to reason. There is no rationality behind any of the revealed religions, but people adhere to them blindly by the billions because it makes them feel good to do so.

But there is nothing about a soul that is mortal. If you believe we have souls then you believe in human spiritual connection. Yes, far too many people subsist on emotion without recourse to reason. This sometimes causes them to irrationally conclude there is no God, when every rationality for human spirituality exists. It's who we are and it defines us as a species.

You are casually dismissing our persistent attribute of human spirituality because you claim it is merely something that makes us feel good. Do humans have sex because it makes them feel good? I guess you can say some do, but is that why humans have sex? Or is there more to it than mere pleasure?

please remove all the specious speculation...

 

[Boss]

As if it wasn't dying out.

But nothing is dying out. In the US, 85% of us identify with some form of religious belief while 15% profess no specific religious belief. 20% of us attend weekly religious services to support our human spiritual belief. Of the 15% who profess no religious belief, only 5% are Nihilists. This is consistent throughout all of human civilization as far back as we can measure. 95% of us belief in something greater than self, and we always have.

A belief in something greater than self is not evidence of any spiritual reality. Anyone caught in a storm on the sea has that humbling belief.

From my experience, when I was a child 95% of the people my age believed in the virgin birth, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or that monsters lived under their bed. Now 95% of them don't which shows that superstition is inclined to die out with emotional and intellectual maturity. Of those who still attend religious services as adults 85% of them are just pretending to believe out of fear or conformity, 10% are mentally ill, and the remaining 5% are deliberate deceivers.

I need to point out several flaws you've made here. There is no physical evidence of a spiritual reality and there probably won't ever be any physical evidence of such... else it becomes a physical reality. The comment I responded to was "as if it's not dying out." Indicating the belief that human spirituality is dying out, when that is not the case. Statistics do not lie, and they show that as many people believe in something greater than self as ever before. You can have whatever opinion you want about that, you can't argue facts.

The "evidence" for a spiritual reality is spiritual evidence and it's overwhelming. Which explains why 85% of us identify with some form of religious belief while 15% do not. It explains why more of us attend weekly services to worship than those of us who claim they don't believe in any religion. It also explains why only 5% of the human population are Nihilist and 95% of us believe in something greater than self.

 

[Boss]

please remove all the specious speculation...

Shut up or contribute to the conversation.

 

[daws101]

But nothing is dying out. In the US, 85% of us identify with some form of religious belief while 15% profess no specific religious belief. 20% of us attend weekly religious services to support our human spiritual belief. Of the 15% who profess no religious belief, only 5% are Nihilists. This is consistent throughout all of human civilization as far back as we can measure. 95% of us belief in something greater than self, and we always have.

A belief in something greater than self is not evidence of any spiritual reality. Anyone caught in a storm on the sea has that humbling belief.

From my experience, when I was a child 95% of the people my age believed in the virgin birth, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or that monsters lived under their bed. Now 95% of them don't which shows that superstition is inclined to die out with emotional and intellectual maturity. Of those who still attend religious services as adults 85% of them are just pretending to believe out of fear or conformity, 10% are mentally ill, and the remaining 5% are deliberate deceivers.

I need to point out several flaws you've made here. There is no physical evidence of a spiritual reality and there probably won't ever be any physical evidence of such... else it becomes a physical reality. The comment I responded to was "as if it's not dying out." Indicating the belief that human spirituality is dying out, when that is not the case. Statistics do not lie, and they show that as many people believe in something greater than self as ever before. You can have whatever opinion you want about that, you can't argue facts.

The "evidence" for a spiritual reality is spiritual evidence and it's overwhelming. Which explains why 85% of us identify with some form of religious belief while 15% do not. It explains why more of us attend weekly services to worship than those of us who claim they don't believe in any religion. It also explains why only 5% of the human population are Nihilist and 95% of us believe in something greater than self.

the stats only "prove"that the belief exists not the thing believed in....too tough a concept for you.....

 

[daws101]

please remove all the specious speculation...

Shut up or contribute to the conversation.

I do contribute immensely, I take a complex idea and explain it with accuracy and brevity, skills you don't possess...or you're in love with the sound of your keyboard keys.

 

[MaryL]

Perhaps GOD would like to step up now and answer the question for him/her/itself. Why not? Are we mortals just taking too much of his sweet immortal time? Something isn’t adding up here. Maybe God is shy?

 

[Boss]

the stats only "prove"that the belief exists not the thing believed in....too tough a concept for you.....

The stats were presented to refute the erroneous argument that spirituality is dying out.

I admit, there is no physical evidence to support existence that is spiritual and not physical.

 

[Boss]

Perhaps GOD would like to step up now and answer the question for him/her/itself. Why not? Are we mortals just taking too much of his sweet immortal time? Something isn’t adding up here. Maybe God is shy?

Or maybe God doesn't have vanity or pride like a human, and therefore, doesn't feel the need to explain or answer your questions? Maybe God doesn't conform to whatever is inside your vapid and silly little human mind as to what God is supposed to be or do? Perhaps God is content with allowing you non-believers to run your mouths and denounce His existence for the remainder of the relatively minuscule amount of time you have left to exist as a physical living organism?

The more I talk with non-believers the more I am astonished with their complete lack of imagination or ability to think dynamically. It's as if you have composed this idea in your heads as to what God is to all these people who claim they believe in God, and you've decided that is ridiculous to believe in. It never seems to cross your mind that your own concept or image of God may be incorrect or invalid, and that maybe this is why you have trouble imagining God as a reality. You assume that your rather narrow-minded and simplistic view of God is the only possible way God can be and you can't comprehend anything outside of those boundaries. Genuine sub-neophytes.

 

[hobelim]

But nothing is dying out. In the US, 85% of us identify with some form of religious belief while 15% profess no specific religious belief. 20% of us attend weekly religious services to support our human spiritual belief. Of the 15% who profess no religious belief, only 5% are Nihilists. This is consistent throughout all of human civilization as far back as we can measure. 95% of us belief in something greater than self, and we always have.

A belief in something greater than self is not evidence of any spiritual reality. Anyone caught in a storm on the sea has that humbling belief.

From my experience, when I was a child 95% of the people my age believed in the virgin birth, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or that monsters lived under their bed. Now 95% of them don't which shows that superstition is inclined to die out with emotional and intellectual maturity. Of those who still attend religious services as adults 85% of them are just pretending to believe out of fear or conformity, 10% are mentally ill, and the remaining 5% are deliberate deceivers.

I need to point out several flaws you've made here. There is no physical evidence of a spiritual reality and there probably won't ever be any physical evidence of such... else it becomes a physical reality. The comment I responded to was "as if it's not dying out." Indicating the belief that human spirituality is dying out, when that is not the case. Statistics do not lie, and they show that as many people believe in something greater than self as ever before. You can have whatever opinion you want about that, you can't argue facts.

The "evidence" for a spiritual reality is spiritual evidence and it's overwhelming. Which explains why 85% of us identify with some form of religious belief while 15% do not. It explains why more of us attend weekly services to worship than those of us who claim they don't believe in any religion. It also explains why only 5% of the human population are Nihilist and 95% of us believe in something greater than self.

Perhaps the problem here is the definition of spirituality. You say its a belief in something greater than self which as I have shown is not necessarily superstitious or irrational. What I see dying out is the superstitious and irrational element of those who have claimed to be religious or spiritual which I define as simply a function of the mind where transcendent thinking is used to find purpose and meaning in life. Everyone has this capacity and probably always will. but again that is not poof of any separate spiritual reality unless you consider that the infinite things that people can imagine proof of infinite realities .....which would be stupid..

The vast majority of practicing Catholics would and do scoff at the idea that God could be eaten and maintain private interpretations of what's going on at mass, thinking its a kind of memorial or symbolic ceremony even though church teaching is that the eucharist becomes the body of Christ in actuality. It is a great shame that many are too lazy to bother finding out what exactly it is that they are involved in and are supporting.

People who continue to practice Catholicism even after finding this out are either paralyzed by fear or bound and enslaved by conformity, mentally ill, or deliberate deceivers keeping the rest in line by effectively rendering the individual minds of professed believers useless and incapable of doing anything to save their souls by filling their minds with irrational superstitious mind numbing gobbledygook every Sunday and high holy day, for a nominal service charge..

 

[Boss]

Perhaps the problem here is the definition of spirituality. You say its a belief in something greater than self which as I have shown is not necessarily superstitious or irrational. What I see dying out is the superstitious and irrational element of those who have claimed to be religious or spiritual which I define as simply a function of the mind where transcendent thinking is used to find purpose and meaning in life. Everyone has this capacity and probably always will. but again that is not poof of any separate spiritual reality unless you consider that the infinite things that people can imagine proof of infinite realities .....which would be stupid..

The vast majority of practicing Catholics would and do scoff at the idea that God could be eaten and maintain private interpretations of what's going on at mass, thinking its a kind of memorial or symbolic ceremony even though church teaching is that the eucharist becomes the body of Christ in actuality. It is a great shame that many are too lazy to bother finding out what exactly it is that they are involved in and are supporting.

People who continue to practice Catholicism even after finding this out are either paralyzed by fear or bound and enslaved by conformity, mentally ill, or deliberate deceivers keeping the rest in line by effectively rendering the individual minds of professed believers useless and incapable of doing anything to save their souls by filling their minds with irrational superstitious mind numbing gobbledygook every Sunday and high holy day, for a nominal service charge..

What you seem to be doing now is changing the argument away from spirituality to specific religious beliefs. I'm not here to defend religions, I can't. It's not possible to defend all the various and contradicting religious beliefs and claim they are all valid and true. All I have argued for is human spirituality.

It's important to note, human spirituality causes mankind to adopt religious beliefs. The religions are often how humans experience their spiritual connection. It's a way for them to understand a God that they may not otherwise be able to comprehend. Now since man cannot create perfection, man can't create the perfect religion. This is why most religions claim to be Divinely inspired and not simply man made.

The OP question is: Is there any sound argument for God's existence? I believe there is.
The problem is in the numerous caveats... what do you consider "sound argument" with respect to a spiritual entity? If your mind is closed to anything other than physical evidence, you can't imagine any "sound" argument for a spiritual entity. Then there is the question of what is God? Is it the Christian biblical incarnation? Nature itself? The possibilities abound. Finally, there is the question of what is "existence" and how do you comprehend it? Someone who does not believe in spiritual nature can't comprehend spiritual existence.

If we take an objective and open minded step back, we see that human behavior has always maintained a strong spiritual connection to something greater than self. If it wasn't needed or required by the species, we would have discarded the attribute long ago. If it was an attribute we developed out of necessity or fear, there would be evidence of similar attributes in other living organisms. Since we have never found this to be the case, and since humans have consistently practiced spirituality, we can conclude that there is some real connection humans are making to something greater than self.

The question is answered.

 

[hobelim]

What you seem to be doing now is changing the argument away from spirituality to specific religious beliefs. I'm not here to defend religions, I can't. It's not possible to defend all the various and contradicting religious beliefs and claim they are all valid and true. All I have argued for is human spirituality.

It's important to note, human spirituality causes mankind to adopt religious beliefs. The religions are often how humans experience their spiritual connection. It's a way for them to understand a God that they may not otherwise be able to comprehend. Now since man cannot create perfection, man can't create the perfect religion. This is why most religions claim to be Divinely inspired and not simply man made.

The OP question is: Is there any sound argument for God's existence? I believe there is.
The problem is in the numerous caveats... what do you consider "sound argument" with respect to a spiritual entity? If your mind is closed to anything other than physical evidence, you can't imagine any "sound" argument for a spiritual entity. Then there is the question of what is God? Is it the Christian biblical incarnation? Nature itself? The possibilities abound. Finally, there is the question of what is "existence" and how do you comprehend it? Someone who does not believe in spiritual nature can't comprehend spiritual existence.

If we take an objective and open minded step back, we see that human behavior has always maintained a strong spiritual connection to something greater than self. If it wasn't needed or required by the species, we would have discarded the attribute long ago. If it was an attribute we developed out of necessity or fear, there would be evidence of similar attributes in other living organisms. Since we have never found this to be the case, and since humans have consistently practiced spirituality, we can conclude that there is some real connection humans are making to something greater than self.

The question is answered.

OK, so you will never be a great thinker.

What you call human spirituality is indistinguishable from mental illness or superstition. Hardly proof of any spiritual reality.

And the need to connect to something greater then themselves is not evidence of any spiritual reality if you think spiritual reality is more than a function of the mind engaged in transcendent thought. Anyone caught in a tornado believes in something greater than self. Every member of any sports team has a belief in something greater than self. Any ant that you step on on your way to the garbage can has an awareness of something greater than self as does any schooling fish, swarming bug, pack animal or the prey of any predator..

Does someone's need to connect to something greater than self make a block of carved wood a real god? Is it evidence of any reality or evidence of any God? Of course not. It is much more likely just evidence of perversions in thought and errors in speculations.

Yes, there are sound arguments for the existence of God but your argument suggesting that beliefs are the proof of the reality of things believed in is not.

 

[Boss]

What you seem to be doing now is changing the argument away from spirituality to specific religious beliefs. I'm not here to defend religions, I can't. It's not possible to defend all the various and contradicting religious beliefs and claim they are all valid and true. All I have argued for is human spirituality.

It's important to note, human spirituality causes mankind to adopt religious beliefs. The religions are often how humans experience their spiritual connection. It's a way for them to understand a God that they may not otherwise be able to comprehend. Now since man cannot create perfection, man can't create the perfect religion. This is why most religions claim to be Divinely inspired and not simply man made.

The OP question is: Is there any sound argument for God's existence? I believe there is.
The problem is in the numerous caveats... what do you consider "sound argument" with respect to a spiritual entity? If your mind is closed to anything other than physical evidence, you can't imagine any "sound" argument for a spiritual entity. Then there is the question of what is God? Is it the Christian biblical incarnation? Nature itself? The possibilities abound. Finally, there is the question of what is "existence" and how do you comprehend it? Someone who does not believe in spiritual nature can't comprehend spiritual existence.

If we take an objective and open minded step back, we see that human behavior has always maintained a strong spiritual connection to something greater than self. If it wasn't needed or required by the species, we would have discarded the attribute long ago. If it was an attribute we developed out of necessity or fear, there would be evidence of similar attributes in other living organisms. Since we have never found this to be the case, and since humans have consistently practiced spirituality, we can conclude that there is some real connection humans are making to something greater than self.

The question is answered.

OK, so you will never be a great thinker.

What you call human spirituality is indistinguishable from mental illness or superstition. Hardly proof of any spiritual reality.

And the need to connect to something greater then themselves is not evidence of any spiritual reality if you think spiritual reality is more than a function of the mind engaged in transcendent thought. Anyone caught in a tornado believes in something greater than self. Every member of any sports team has a belief in something greater than self. Any ant that you step on on your way to the garbage can has an awareness of something greater than self as does any schooling fish, swarming bug, pack animal or the prey of any predator..

Does someone's need to connect to something greater than self make a block of carved wood a real god? Is it evidence of any reality or evidence of any God? Of course not. It is much more likely just evidence of perversions in thought and errors in speculations.

Yes, there are sound arguments for the existence of God but your argument suggesting that beliefs are the proof of the reality of things believed in is not.

Not indistinguishable at all. 95% of our species is not, and hasn't always been "mentally ill." We would have been eliminated from the table of life long ago by a more superior primate if that were true. Also not "superstition" because there is no evidence of any benefit from being superstitious. With spirituality you have documented testimonials from billions of people and the fact that as many humans are spiritual now as ever before.

When I speak of "something greater than self" I am not referring to something of a physical nature. I assumed this was obvious but I forgot who I was talking to.

I've not argued that beliefs are proof of reality of things believed in. To the contrary, I even said that I can't prove the various and assorted things people believe in. The question was: Is there any sound argument for God's existence? I think there is and I think I made a sound argument. Did I "prove" something? No, that wasn't the question. You're trying to twist the question or contort my answer into something that is not there. This is the trademark of an intellectual coward.

 

[hobelim]

Not indistinguishable at all. 95% of our species is not, and hasn't always been "mentally ill." We would have been eliminated from the table of life long ago by a more superior primate if that were true. Also not "superstition" because there is no evidence of any benefit from being superstitious. With spirituality you have documented testimonials from billions of people and the fact that as many humans are spiritual now as ever before.

When I speak of "something greater than self" I am not referring to something of a physical nature. I assumed this was obvious but I forgot who I was talking to.

I've not argued that beliefs are proof of reality of things believed in. To the contrary, I even said that I can't prove the various and assorted things people believe in. The question was: Is there any sound argument for God's existence? I think there is and I think I made a sound argument. Did I "prove" something? No, that wasn't the question. You're trying to twist the question or contort my answer into something that is not there. This is the trademark of an intellectual coward.

LOL... Yes, there are sound arguments for the existence of God, but no you haven't made any such argument. Your argument is that human spirituality manifested by irrational superstitious religious beliefs that have always been practiced are proof of spiritual reality whatever that is, as if spirituality itself isn't simply just a function of the mind struggling to make sense of what is beyond its understanding..

Whenever the topic of God comes up or someone asks you to define God you say you have no such belief.

Talk about an intellectual coward!

Your thread asserting that historical superstitious religious lunacy was proof of spiritual reality was refuted a long time ago, by just about everyone.

Get over it.

 

[Boss]

Not indistinguishable at all. 95% of our species is not, and hasn't always been "mentally ill." We would have been eliminated from the table of life long ago by a more superior primate if that were true. Also not "superstition" because there is no evidence of any benefit from being superstitious. With spirituality you have documented testimonials from billions of people and the fact that as many humans are spiritual now as ever before.

When I speak of "something greater than self" I am not referring to something of a physical nature. I assumed this was obvious but I forgot who I was talking to.

I've not argued that beliefs are proof of reality of things believed in. To the contrary, I even said that I can't prove the various and assorted things people believe in. The question was: Is there any sound argument for God's existence? I think there is and I think I made a sound argument. Did I "prove" something? No, that wasn't the question. You're trying to twist the question or contort my answer into something that is not there. This is the trademark of an intellectual coward.

LOL... Yes, there are sound arguments for the existence of God, but no you haven't made any such argument. Your argument is that human spirituality manifested by irrational superstitious religious beliefs that have always been practiced are proof of spiritual reality whatever that is, as if spirituality itself isn't simply just a function of the mind struggling to make sense of what is beyond its understanding..

Whenever the topic of God comes up or someone asks you to define God you say you have no such belief.

Talk about an intellectual coward!

Your thread asserting that historical superstitious religious lunacy was proof of spiritual reality was refuted a long time ago, by just about everyone.

Get over it.

So now you've simply decided to lie about my argument and claim I have made the opposite argument? I never claimed human spirituality was manifested by irrational superstitious religious beliefs, I claimed the opposite. That 'irrational superstitious religious beliefs' were manifested by human spirituality.

...are proof of spiritual reality whatever that is...

Again, I have corrected you once on this already.... Never did I claim there was PROOF of anything. I made a "sound argument" for something, that does not mean or indicate I proved it. Sound arguments can be made for any number of things it doesn't mean they are proven. Proof of a spiritual entity can only happen if you accept spiritual evidence, which you don't. So there is no way to "prove" anything to you. I keep on telling you this and you just keep coming back claiming I have claimed to have "proven" something to you. Get it through that thick head, I can't "prove" anything to you, your mind is made up about spiritual evidence.

isn't simply just a function of the mind struggling to make sense of what is beyond its understanding..

And I've demonstrated how that can't possibly be the case unless it defies everything theorized by Darwin's Natural Selection. If the human species was so weak that it needed to "struggle to make sense" of something, the other upper primates would have eliminated humans long ago. Survival of the fittest. The species with the least hindrance to development always wins. We see no evidence of any of the other upper primates "struggling to make sense" of something, they don't seem to be aware of anything else but physical existence.

Whenever the topic of God comes up or someone asks you to define God you say you have no such belief.

I have never said I didn't believe in God. Again, you lie. Why are you lying so much about things I've said? It's not like people can't search out the truth and see that you are lying. I've said numerous times, my personal belief in God doesn't conform to any mainstream religious dogma. I believe in God because I know God exists, I don't have faith, I don't need faith. I talk to God daily, and God is with me daily. So I have no need to prove God to myself. I'm merely responding to a question asked about any "sound argument" for God's existence. I think I've made one, and you've failed to refute it. That first prompted you to tell me I wasn't ever going to be a great thinker. Now you've resorted to outright lying about things I've argued and dreaming up past thread posts that never happened. You really are a sad clown.