Is the universe an intelligence creating machine?

[zaangalewa]

We are creation like all other creatures.

You don't know whether god exists or not exists. And you don't have any idea how strange this typical anglo-american never ending discussion of mad "Christians" and extremistic "scientists" sounds in the ears of the very most Christians and in the ears of many or most scientists. Not to use the argument "god" in context of natural science means not god exists or not exists. (Did god exist when he had created existence?) One of the most stupid ideas I've ever heard in context of natural science were for example the anti-ideas of Richard Dawkins to say the philosophy agnosticism shows that god is not existing. But that's nonsense. Agnosticism is still a philosophy and not a belief and still every agnostics is able to believe in god or not to believe in god.

The perfect is not perfect here. In the best of all possible worlds everything is always able to be more perfect too. Second: It's our job to keep gods creation alive and we (=every single human being without any exception) are responsible for gods living creation. Pope Francis said with every species, which we lose, we will lose a voice of god. I would say we lose not only a voice of god - we lose ourselve too in the loud, louder and loudest howling of strong men all over the world for more and more personal and national might and money. Life is the real important thing: all and every life: Life first!

That’s horse shit. No offense.

Yes, we are creatures. Unlike any other though in that we are beings that know and create.

Yes, we are supposed to be stewards but man is still broken.

As to the rest maybe you should revisit the section on atheism in the catechism.

I do not think you expect a serios answer to this lines from you. But let me give this short answer: I am not a steward, no one and nothing is able to create or to destroy energy and I don't know what you try to speak about when you say "Man is still broken". And I think you try to use the Christian religion for something what has not a lot to do with truth.

You should stop thinking because everything you thought was wrong.

Why do you write such respectless anti-enlightened nonsense sentences?

In fact it describes you and not me. You were the one who wasn’t being serious.

No. I just simple do not see what your unabilty to accept logic and facts and your respectlessness has to do with the Christian religion.

I am very capable of accepting logic and being respectful.

My belief is that Genesis should not be read literally and that the original meaning has been lost through time.

Take your time travel machine. Drive back into the stone age a short time before Göbekli Tepe was built. Sit down with the members of your tribe at the camp fire. And then let tell you from someone of your team there something about the Genesis. Listen what your friends say about. Afterwards go sleeping.

At the heart of Genesis is the belief that God created existence and that man is a product of that creation. The purpose of the OP is to establish that the laws of nature are such that intelligence was predestined even before the creation of space and time.

From the point of view of the expansion of the universe beginning with a big bang, which was not big and was not a bang, space, time and energy were "suddenly" here - including all natural laws. Everything what we see all around us has a structure - and it looks like that everything, what is invisible all around us, has a structure too.

Hence the discussion is the universe an intelligence creating machine.

Personally I don’t see how anyone could see it any other way.

There are many ways. Show at this one for example: A stupid god could create a universe and wait some eternities. Then he takes a look at the result. If he don't like it he will destroy this universe and create a new one. In this case this god has only to be a little more eternal, allmighty and with a sense for beauty.
I don't think this is true. I believe god is our father, who loves us. But no one knows and all thoughts in this context are speculative. When for example all people, who made experiences with god, had a perception error (what I do not believe) then god is perhaps not real. We don't know. No one knows. On the other side is the idea atheism also only an idea. Even if god never spoke with someone: We are also in this case not able to know whether god is not existing or existing.
The "wise" men of our time misinterpret agnostsicism for example in this way, that god could exist with some probability - but to think in such a way is nonsense. Agnosticism - which is a philosophy and not a belief - forces someone to make a choice, because to think a premise is true and false the same time is nothing what can be a base of logic. It's only a psychological problem that we believe sometimes in god - and sometimes we do not believe in god. This says nothing about the existence or not-existence of god.
The strange thing now: God could indeed exist and not exist the same time. But - and that is a very big fat but - we are not able to think so, because to think out of a contradiction makes everything true what someone thinks! And if automatically everything is true, what someone says, then it is worthless.
That's why perhaps lots of people today live in the wrong, worthless opinion "everything is relative". It is not. In the theory of relativity for example space and time behave relatively to the absolute speed of light. (=Whenever we make a measurement of the speed of light, then we measure exactly the speed of light, totally independent from the own speed.) People, who think "everything is relative" say often also there is not only one truth, but there are many truthes. And this is - as far as I can see - just simple wrong. Even natural science - in general every science - knows only one truth. A result in chemistry for example is not able to be in a contradiction with a result in physics - or with a result in biology. Sciene follows the idea it exists only one truth. In physics, chemistry and biology we are able to prove a lots of ideas with facts (experiments) - but this becomes more and more difficult the more complex a phenomenon is. Intelligence is in general the abillity to find the best of all possible solutions (in our best of all possible worlds) for any problem, independent from its complexity.

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
Albert Einstein

 

[toobfreak]

Is the universe an intelligence creating machine?
Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

I think that rather backward. A far better way to understand the cosmos is as Intelligence as a universe creating machine, NOT the other way around!

Matter comes from mind. No mind, never matter.

 

[ding]

Is the universe an intelligence creating machine?
Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

I think that rather backward. A far better way to understand the cosmos is as Intelligence as a universe creating machine, NOT the other way around!

Matter comes from mind. No mind, never matter.

Well, humans are a product of the universe, right?

Therefore, the universe produced humans.

So why isn’t the purpose of the universe to create intelligence?

 

[ding]

Matter comes from mind. No mind, never matter.

I don’t disagree with this.

In fact, I have always said this.

It doesn’t change my point here.

 

[sealybobo]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

We know it will because it did here. Given the right conditions.

And it may not happen every time. Maybe on one planet the smartest thing they have is a tardigrade but how intelligent do you need to be considered intelligent?

We evolved to be this smart. And no other animal has. But dolphins are pretty smart.

 

[ding]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

We know it will because it did here. Given the right conditions.

And it may not happen every time. Maybe on one planet the smartest thing they have is a tardigrade but how intelligent do you need to be considered intelligent?

We evolved to be this smart. And no other animal has. But dolphins are pretty smart.

Let’s say self awareness.

So why is it that you don’t believe that intelligence can be the source of the material world?

 

[sealybobo]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

We know it will because it did here. Given the right conditions.

And it may not happen every time. Maybe on one planet the smartest thing they have is a tardigrade but how intelligent do you need to be considered intelligent?

We evolved to be this smart. And no other animal has. But dolphins are pretty smart.

Let’s say self awareness.

So why is it that you don’t believe that intelligence can be the source of the material world?

Is the universe itself intelligent? No. Same way this planet that created all life isn't intelligent.

We are a way for the universe to know itself. We are as close as it gets to becoming a god.

But then we don't run as fast as cheetas, can't smell as good as a deer can, can't see as good as a eagle can, can't fly like birds, aren't stronger than bears, will freeze if left outside naked. We are just the smartest animal on this planet. And maybe even dolphins are self aware. We don't know. That means we aren't that smart.

And despite all our flaws, you think there is a heaven waiting for us just because we are the top of the foodchain. And you think YOU yourselves are gods. Think about how ignorant and arrogant that is. Unless you believe this god visited or sent his only begotten son. Then of course you do believe because you believe a story is a fact. A fairytale.

Only difference is that Jesus wasn't born a long time ago in a far away place. He was born in Bethlaham 2019 years ago.

Remember, you don't just believe in gods, you believe you yourself are a god in waiting. That's not wishful thinking? Delusional.

 

[sealybobo]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

We know it will because it did here. Given the right conditions.

And it may not happen every time. Maybe on one planet the smartest thing they have is a tardigrade but how intelligent do you need to be considered intelligent?

We evolved to be this smart. And no other animal has. But dolphins are pretty smart.

Let’s say self awareness.

So why is it that you don’t believe that intelligence can be the source of the material world?

You think when you die you are going to become a god. How self aware are you really?

 

[ding]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

We know it will because it did here. Given the right conditions.

And it may not happen every time. Maybe on one planet the smartest thing they have is a tardigrade but how intelligent do you need to be considered intelligent?

We evolved to be this smart. And no other animal has. But dolphins are pretty smart.

Let’s say self awareness.

So why is it that you don’t believe that intelligence can be the source of the material world?

Is the universe itself intelligent? No. Same way this planet that created all life isn't intelligent.

We are a way for the universe to know itself. We are as close as it gets to becoming a god.

But then we don't run as fast as cheetas, can't smell as good as a deer can, can't see as good as a eagle can, can't fly like birds, aren't stronger than bears, will freeze if left outside naked. We are just the smartest animal on this planet. And maybe even dolphins are self aware. We don't know. That means we aren't that smart.

And despite all our flaws, you think there is a heaven waiting for us just because we are the top of the foodchain. And you think YOU yourselves are gods. Think about how ignorant and arrogant that is. Unless you believe this god visited or sent his only begotten son. Then of course you do believe because you believe a story is a fact. A fairytale.

Only difference is that Jesus wasn't born a long time ago in a far away place. He was born in Bethlaham 2019 years ago.

Remember, you don't just believe in gods, you believe you yourself are a god in waiting. That's not wishful thinking? Delusional.

That’s super impressive that you don’t recognize the impressive feat of intelligence. Which is probably why you disparage the intelligence of humans and make silly arguments that we don’t possess the pinnacle of all physical attributes.

I not only don’t believe I will be a god I also don’t worry about my destination. That’s what militant atheists do.

 

[ding]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

We know it will because it did here. Given the right conditions.

And it may not happen every time. Maybe on one planet the smartest thing they have is a tardigrade but how intelligent do you need to be considered intelligent?

We evolved to be this smart. And no other animal has. But dolphins are pretty smart.

Let’s say self awareness.

So why is it that you don’t believe that intelligence can be the source of the material world?

You think when you die you are going to become a god. How self aware are you really?

You don’t know what I believe. You only think you do.

I am self aware enough to realize that rather than mind being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time it has always existed as the source or matrix of the material world such that mind created the material world such that beings that know and create would eventually arise. And that this mind is the force which connects us all.

 

[sealybobo]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

We know it will because it did here. Given the right conditions.

And it may not happen every time. Maybe on one planet the smartest thing they have is a tardigrade but how intelligent do you need to be considered intelligent?

We evolved to be this smart. And no other animal has. But dolphins are pretty smart.

Let’s say self awareness.

So why is it that you don’t believe that intelligence can be the source of the material world?

You think when you die you are going to become a god. How self aware are you really?

You don’t know what I believe. You only think you do.

I am self aware enough to realize that rather than mind being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time it has always existed as the source or matrix of the material world such that mind created the material world such that beings that know and create would eventually arise. And that this mind is the force which connects us all.

Well if it exists, it's natural and will die too. All living things will. There is no fairy god that watches over everything. And visits.

 

[toobfreak]

Is the universe an intelligence creating machine?
Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

I think that rather backward. A far better way to understand the cosmos is as Intelligence as a universe creating machine, NOT the other way around!
Matter comes from mind. No mind, never matter.

Well, humans are a product of the universe, right?
Therefore, the universe produced humans.
So why isn’t the purpose of the universe to create intelligence?

Well obviously the universe "creates" intelligence since we are here reading this! But you missed my point. All qualities in the phenomenal universe are finite. Even the number of stars is finite. The universe is created. That includes everything in it, matter, energy, hope, love, compassion, intelligence-- -- -- -- all finite qualities in the universe come from an infinite source. We call that God. All qualities that appear in finite quantity in the universe are simply mirrors of that infinite quality found in God.

 

[ding]

Is the universe an intelligence creating machine?
Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

I think that rather backward. A far better way to understand the cosmos is as Intelligence as a universe creating machine, NOT the other way around!
Matter comes from mind. No mind, never matter.

Well, humans are a product of the universe, right?
Therefore, the universe produced humans.
So why isn’t the purpose of the universe to create intelligence?

Well obviously the universe "creates" intelligence since we are here reading this! But you missed my point. All qualities in the phenomenal universe are finite. Even the number of stars is finite. The universe is created. That includes everything in it, matter, energy, hope, love, compassion, intelligence-- -- -- -- all finite qualities in the universe come from an infinite source. We call that God. All qualities that appear in finite quantity in the universe are simply mirrors of that infinite quality found in God.

I don’t believe I did miss it.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

So your opening question should read...

"Is life an intelligence creating machine?"

That way you avoid the controversy of how and when life is created in the universe.

*****CHUCKLE*****

But I see it as the purpose of the universe is to create life and intelligence. Everything which has unfolded since space and time popped into existence and began to expand and cool was directed at creating intelligence.

You can't tell what something is by how it starts. You can only tell what it is when it becomes it.

The differences of the origin of life as I pointed out are important in my humble opinion. It might explain a lot about origins...

So what's the purpose of a vast entropic system creating miniscule beings who can barely comprehend it's scope or complexity?

*****SMILE*****

I believe its purpose is to create beings that know and create, aka intelligence, so that the creator can share in our experiences.

Why?

OR

For what purpose?

*****SMILE*****

To experience the material world.

What better thing for a mind with no body to do than to create the material world so that minds with bodies can make smart things too.

So you're saying God is everywhere and in everything?

What of our free will?

*****SMILE*****

 

[toobfreak]

Is the universe an intelligence creating machine?
Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

I think that rather backward. A far better way to understand the cosmos is as Intelligence as a universe creating machine, NOT the other way around!

Matter comes from mind. No mind, never matter.

Well, humans are a product of the universe, right?

Therefore, the universe produced humans.

So why isn’t the purpose of the universe to create intelligence?

modus tollens

 

[ding]

But I see it as the purpose of the universe is to create life and intelligence. Everything which has unfolded since space and time popped into existence and began to expand and cool was directed at creating intelligence.

You can't tell what something is by how it starts. You can only tell what it is when it becomes it.

The differences of the origin of life as I pointed out are important in my humble opinion. It might explain a lot about origins...

So what's the purpose of a vast entropic system creating miniscule beings who can barely comprehend it's scope or complexity?

*****SMILE*****

I believe its purpose is to create beings that know and create, aka intelligence, so that the creator can share in our experiences.

Why?

OR

For what purpose?

*****SMILE*****

To experience the material world.

What better thing for a mind with no body to do than to create the material world so that minds with bodies can make smart things too.

So you're saying God is everywhere and in everything?

What of our free will?

*****SMILE*****

I’m not a pantheist.

 

[ding]

Is the universe an intelligence creating machine?
Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

I think that rather backward. A far better way to understand the cosmos is as Intelligence as a universe creating machine, NOT the other way around!

Matter comes from mind. No mind, never matter.

Well, humans are a product of the universe, right?

Therefore, the universe produced humans.

So why isn’t the purpose of the universe to create intelligence?

modus tollens

I take it that you don’t believe humans are a product of the universe?

 

[Weatherman2020]

Anyone who thinks a pile of dirt will one day write a violin concerto without outside influence is extremely gullible and lacks key intelligence.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

The differences of the origin of life as I pointed out are important in my humble opinion. It might explain a lot about origins...

So what's the purpose of a vast entropic system creating miniscule beings who can barely comprehend it's scope or complexity?

*****SMILE*****

I believe its purpose is to create beings that know and create, aka intelligence, so that the creator can share in our experiences.

Why?

OR

For what purpose?

*****SMILE*****

To experience the material world.

What better thing for a mind with no body to do than to create the material world so that minds with bodies can make smart things too.

So you're saying God is everywhere and in everything?

What of our free will?

*****SMILE*****

I’m not a pantheist.

So god sits on his thrown on the mountain watching what we do in his reflecting pool of viewing?

*****CHUCKLE*****

 

[ding]

I believe its purpose is to create beings that know and create, aka intelligence, so that the creator can share in our experiences.

Why?

OR

For what purpose?

*****SMILE*****

To experience the material world.

What better thing for a mind with no body to do than to create the material world so that minds with bodies can make smart things too.

So you're saying God is everywhere and in everything?

What of our free will?

*****SMILE*****

I’m not a pantheist.

So god sits on his thrown on the mountain watching what we do in his reflecting pool of viewing?

*****CHUCKLE*****

No. He experiences the material world through us.