Ancient lion
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- Nov 22, 2010
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Is the Quran Gods words?
- Thread starter Dajjal
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #184
Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.
The following are three verses in the Quran which refer to Muhammad being illiterate, in which I only quote the relevant text, leaving out the rest of the sura.
7.157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;
7.158 day: So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet,
62.2 It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves:
But there are three verses in the Quran that mention the Psalms of the Bible by name. sura 4.163 sura 17.55 and sura 21.105
The Quran also mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.
sura 3.48 sura 4.54 sura 11.17 sura 11.110 sura 19.41 sura 17.2 sura 17.4 sura 23.49 sura 25.35 sura 40.53 sura 41.45 sura 45.16 sura 46.12 sura 53.36 sura 87.19 sura 28.2 sura 32.2 sura
Muslims will try to argue that Muhammad had no access to the bible, but the above references from the Quran show he was well aware of its existence.
The Greek Bible was readily available long before Muhammad's time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the Quran quotes Bible story after Bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously not a part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda. There has been much work done on Bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the Quran claims them all as a previous message from God.
The following hadith shows that Muhammad sent for the torah and had it read out to him. It also shows his cruelty in having people stoned to death.
Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.
Therefore my conclusion is that Muhammad was well aware of the Bible, and even if he could not read, someone translated and read the Greek Bible to him.
The following are three verses in the Quran which refer to Muhammad being illiterate, in which I only quote the relevant text, leaving out the rest of the sura.
7.157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;
7.158 day: So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet,
62.2 It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves:
But there are three verses in the Quran that mention the Psalms of the Bible by name. sura 4.163 sura 17.55 and sura 21.105
The Quran also mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.
sura 3.48 sura 4.54 sura 11.17 sura 11.110 sura 19.41 sura 17.2 sura 17.4 sura 23.49 sura 25.35 sura 40.53 sura 41.45 sura 45.16 sura 46.12 sura 53.36 sura 87.19 sura 28.2 sura 32.2 sura
Muslims will try to argue that Muhammad had no access to the bible, but the above references from the Quran show he was well aware of its existence.
The Greek Bible was readily available long before Muhammad's time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the Quran quotes Bible story after Bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously not a part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda. There has been much work done on Bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the Quran claims them all as a previous message from God.
The following hadith shows that Muhammad sent for the torah and had it read out to him. It also shows his cruelty in having people stoned to death.
Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.
Therefore my conclusion is that Muhammad was well aware of the Bible, and even if he could not read, someone translated and read the Greek Bible to him.
Sunni Man
Diamond Member
You do realize that the O.T. and the Quran both contain almost identical laws?
So why would you blaspheme your God that way?
Buford
Rookie
- Banned
- #188
You do realize that the O.T. and the Quran both contain almost identical laws?
So why would you blaspheme your God that way?
Yes, I understand that. Mohammed bastardized much from the Word of the One True Living God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I would be guilty of blaspheme if your god was the One True Living God who wrote the Quran, but He didn't. You're deceived.
- Thread starter
- #189
I have written a peice on blasphemy, and here it is.
The quran states quite clearly that God is one, and it is a blasphemy to say Jesus is the son of God, at sura 5.72 and it is a blasphemy to say God is part of a trinity. at sura 5.73.
Sura 5.72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary"
Sura 5.73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except One God.
But the bible says you may be forgiven for blasphemy against Jesus, but to deny the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. Therefore if the bible is right then Muhammad was an unforgivable blasphemer.
Only one book can be right, and there is no room for adjustment here. So it is quite clear that the quran does not confirm all the previous messages, as it claims to do at sura 10.37
Sura 10.37 This quran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of revelations that went before it, and a fuller explanation.
It is clear where Muhammad got the idea of claiming he received the quran from the angel Gabriel in the bible, as the angel is sent to Zacharias to tell him of the coming of John the baptist at Luke 1.11 to 1.20 The angel Gabriel also visited Mary to tell her about Jesus at Luke 1.27
But the bible states that it was the Holy Ghost that spoke through Jesus, and later the through the disciples, so the angel Gabriel was not required to tell the word of God, as God himself in the form of the holy Ghost speaks with the mouth of his true messengers.
Therefore what doubt can there be that Muhammad invented a lie about God, and said he was told what was written on a tablet in heaven, and he remembered the message and passed it on to his followers. There can be no clearer indictment of Muhammad as a false prophet than the denial of the trinity, and the power of the holy spirit to speak through a true messenger.
Muhammad could not speak without thinking about his words, as he might contradict himself or make errors. Which of course, he did do anyway. But he gave himself time to go away and think up his next statement by claiming he had to get the message from Gabriel.
The following are the bible texts that state denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin, but denying Jesus is not.
Matthew:12:31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matthew:12:32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew
29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Luke:12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
These are some more verses that explain the concept that the Holy Ghost is God within us. which is the message Muhammad denies, and for which there is no forgiveness.
1Co:6
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co:12 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Jo:5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The quran states quite clearly that God is one, and it is a blasphemy to say Jesus is the son of God, at sura 5.72 and it is a blasphemy to say God is part of a trinity. at sura 5.73.
Sura 5.72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary"
Sura 5.73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except One God.
But the bible says you may be forgiven for blasphemy against Jesus, but to deny the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. Therefore if the bible is right then Muhammad was an unforgivable blasphemer.
Only one book can be right, and there is no room for adjustment here. So it is quite clear that the quran does not confirm all the previous messages, as it claims to do at sura 10.37
Sura 10.37 This quran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of revelations that went before it, and a fuller explanation.
It is clear where Muhammad got the idea of claiming he received the quran from the angel Gabriel in the bible, as the angel is sent to Zacharias to tell him of the coming of John the baptist at Luke 1.11 to 1.20 The angel Gabriel also visited Mary to tell her about Jesus at Luke 1.27
But the bible states that it was the Holy Ghost that spoke through Jesus, and later the through the disciples, so the angel Gabriel was not required to tell the word of God, as God himself in the form of the holy Ghost speaks with the mouth of his true messengers.
Therefore what doubt can there be that Muhammad invented a lie about God, and said he was told what was written on a tablet in heaven, and he remembered the message and passed it on to his followers. There can be no clearer indictment of Muhammad as a false prophet than the denial of the trinity, and the power of the holy spirit to speak through a true messenger.
Muhammad could not speak without thinking about his words, as he might contradict himself or make errors. Which of course, he did do anyway. But he gave himself time to go away and think up his next statement by claiming he had to get the message from Gabriel.
The following are the bible texts that state denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin, but denying Jesus is not.
Matthew:12:31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matthew:12:32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew
29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:Luke:12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.These are some more verses that explain the concept that the Holy Ghost is God within us. which is the message Muhammad denies, and for which there is no forgiveness.
1Co:6
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?1Co:12
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.1Jo:5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Liability
Locked Account.
How can the Qur'an be a true container when the ******* stupid work of fiction is so completely filled up with contradictions?
Silly Muslims: faithful followers of a sociopathic pedophile. Mohammed was a ******* lowlife scumbag. There's no way God would send an Angel to deliver His word to a scumbag rancid camel **** like Mohammed, much less in the form of a self-contradictory whacked out irrational collection of incoherent gibberish like the Qur'an.
Sunni Man
Diamond Member
God of the Bible and Allah of the Quran are 100% identical.
Deep down in your heart Buford you know this to be true but hate to admit it.
Truth........
- Thread starter
- #192
See my recent post for details of how Muhammad stole his texts from the bible.
By the way, thanks for the three reds, can I have another please.
It will not do you any good because someone has given me a lot of positive rep points.
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Buford
Rookie
- Banned
- #193
God of the Bible and Allah of the Quran are 100% identical.
Deep down in your heart Buford you know this to be true but hate to admit it.
Truth........
One day you tell me the Bible is full of errors and not to be believed and then the next day you tell me the Bible contains the Word of God. I'll admit that you're one confused person.
Liability
Locked Account.
God of the Bible and Allah of the Quran are 100% identical.
Deep down in your heart Buford you know this to be true but hate to admit it.
Truth........
Nonsense.
The "Allah" referenced in the Qur'an is alleged to be the ONE TRUE GOD, the God of Abraham.
But since the Qur'an is a work of idiotic fiction, there is no rational basis to say that the God of the Jewish people and Christians is the same entity whom the adherents of Islam call Allah.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #195
Here are some of the people the Allah of the quran is supposed to have destroyed. The people of Lot, and Thalmud, and Ad, and Pharaoh, and Sodom and Gomorrah, and Tubba.
Is Allah a maniac? is Allah a monster? but most of all is he completely incompetent, that he has to keep destroying people. Well the obvious answer is that God is none of these things, because he did not dictate the quran, it was all made up by Muhammad.
7.4 How many towns have We destroyed (for their sins)? Our punishment took them on a sudden by night or while they slept for their afternoon rest.
8.54 (Deeds) after the manner of the people of Pharaoh and those before them": They treated as false the Signs of their Lord: so We destroyed them for their crimes, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh: for they were all oppressors and wrong- doers.
10.13 Generations before you We destroyed when they did wrong: their apostles came to them with clear-signs, but they would not believe! thus do We requite those who sin!
17.17 How many generations have We destroyed after Noah? and enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.
18.59 Such were the populations we destroyed when they committed iniquities; but we fixed an appointed time for their destruction.
19.74 But how many (countless) generations before them have we destroyed, who were even better in equipment and in glitter to the eye?
19.98 But how many (countless) generations before them have We destroyed? Canst thou find a single one of them (now) or hear (so much as) a whisper of them?
44.37 What! Are they better than the people of Tubba and those who were before them? We destroyed them because they were guilty of sin.
053.050 And that it is He Who destroyed the (powerful) ancient 'Ad (people),
53.53 And He destroyed the Overthrown Cities (of Sodom and Gomorrah).
54.34 We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except Lut's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,-
69.5 But the Thamud,- they were destroyed by a terrible Storm of thunder and lightning!
69.6 And the 'Ad, they were destroyed by a furious Wind, exceedingly violent;
Is Allah a maniac? is Allah a monster? but most of all is he completely incompetent, that he has to keep destroying people. Well the obvious answer is that God is none of these things, because he did not dictate the quran, it was all made up by Muhammad.
7.4 How many towns have We destroyed (for their sins)? Our punishment took them on a sudden by night or while they slept for their afternoon rest.
8.54 (Deeds) after the manner of the people of Pharaoh and those before them": They treated as false the Signs of their Lord: so We destroyed them for their crimes, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh: for they were all oppressors and wrong- doers.
10.13 Generations before you We destroyed when they did wrong: their apostles came to them with clear-signs, but they would not believe! thus do We requite those who sin!
17.17 How many generations have We destroyed after Noah? and enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.
18.59 Such were the populations we destroyed when they committed iniquities; but we fixed an appointed time for their destruction.
19.74 But how many (countless) generations before them have we destroyed, who were even better in equipment and in glitter to the eye?
19.98 But how many (countless) generations before them have We destroyed? Canst thou find a single one of them (now) or hear (so much as) a whisper of them?
44.37 What! Are they better than the people of Tubba and those who were before them? We destroyed them because they were guilty of sin.
053.050 And that it is He Who destroyed the (powerful) ancient 'Ad (people),
53.53 And He destroyed the Overthrown Cities (of Sodom and Gomorrah).
54.34 We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except Lut's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,-
69.5 But the Thamud,- they were destroyed by a terrible Storm of thunder and lightning!
69.6 And the 'Ad, they were destroyed by a furious Wind, exceedingly violent;
Sunni Man
Diamond Member
For the hundredth time Buford.
Bible verses that agree with verses in the Quran we accept.
All other verses we reject as false.
- Thread starter
- #198
For the hundredth time Buford.
Bible verses that agree with verses in the Quran we accept.
All other verses we reject as false.
Yea, and the bible says Jesus was the son of God, and the quran says he was not.
And the bible says Jesus was crucified, and the quran says he was not.
NOW I UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF THE CRUSADES.
I just wish Islam had been wiped out in the middle ages, because we would not have to bother with you now.
Can I have another red please, to add to the four you have given me.
there4eyeM
unlicensed metaphysician
- Jul 5, 2012
- 21,365
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The etymology of the name Allah and that represented by YHWH are not identical.
Hundreds of years before the Koran appeared, it was written that Jesus told the Pharisees, "before Abraham was, I am." He also said, "No one comes to the Father but by me." Simple statements to understand, but not in the context of integration into Islam.
Jesus was not illiterate and in fact probably could read and write three or four languages. It is indicated at one point that he was writing something on the ground. Yet he did not leave tomes for us. If the written word is so essential to faith and understanding, why did this enlightened, highly intelligent individual leave nothing?
Even for those of us who do not practice a religion, the logic involved is evident.
Hundreds of years before the Koran appeared, it was written that Jesus told the Pharisees, "before Abraham was, I am." He also said, "No one comes to the Father but by me." Simple statements to understand, but not in the context of integration into Islam.
Jesus was not illiterate and in fact probably could read and write three or four languages. It is indicated at one point that he was writing something on the ground. Yet he did not leave tomes for us. If the written word is so essential to faith and understanding, why did this enlightened, highly intelligent individual leave nothing?
Even for those of us who do not practice a religion, the logic involved is evident.
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